Comics The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 2

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Shocker almost died in one of those recently. Too soon, man, too soon! t:

See, runaway? Will gets it.

 

[Vid Electricz]

Oh great. The stupid and way too overused "women in refrigerator" analogy rears its ugly head again. Yes, there are occasionally pointlessly gratuitous or borderline misogynistic deaths of supporting characters in comics. But I hate every time a love interest dies in a comic series it's painted with this ridiculously wide brush. What were Ned Leeds' and Harry Osborn's (well, when he was still dead) deaths then? "Dudes in car-trunks" then?

Not to start this whole debate, but the fact is that this sort of "victimization" happens a LOT more often to women (often the male leads love interest) than it does to men- and when it does happen to men, they are usually given a heroic death (Harry) or are an active part of the story(Ned). It's just another symptom of a largely male dominated industry.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Not to start this whole debate, but the fact is that this sort of "victimization" happens a LOT more often to women (often the male leads love interest) than it does to men- and when it does happen to men, they are usually given a heroic death (Harry) or are an active part of the story(Ned). It's just another symptom of a largely male dominated industry.

It might be "victimization" in some rare cases, but nowhere near as widespread as it's made to sound. I think it's more a case of giving a modern impetus to a hero through loss, which is a time-honored tradition in comics going back to their roots, like Peter losing Uncle Ben or Bruce Wayne losing his parents. When Spider-Man or another hero has been running a couple hundred issues and that original loss starts to pale or lose some of its power, a new one might be written in order to reintroduce that vengeful or driven element of the character. Now, is it more likely the typically male superhero is going to be closer to his usually female love-interest or another male supporting character? So I think that's the psychology behind it, rather than victimizing women. I'm sure it happens, but the mindset that the average writer approaches a female character as a plot-device meant to be slaughtered or even worse, derives glee from killing her off, is not based in reality.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

isn't it obvious that it happens more times or not to men because

A) there are more male heroes and most of them are straight

B) men are typically documented as being the weaker sex. There's evidence to suggest that a male losing a love interest is more traumatic to them then a female losing there partner. What a Man losing there partner to with women, is actually their children.

Men often die shortly after there wives (in old age) when there wives pass away, women can live on for a while after the loss of their husband (at old age).

for all the reason's above it really doesn't shock me that women often die in comics...

 

[Vid Electricz]

It might be "victimization" in some rare cases, but nowhere near as widespread as it's made to sound. I think it's more a case of giving a modern impetus to a hero through loss, which is a time-honored tradition in comics going back to their roots, like Peter losing Uncle Ben or Bruce Wayne losing his parents. When Spider-Man or another hero has been running a couple hundred issues and that original loss starts to pale or lose some of its power, a new one might be written in order to reintroduce that vengeful or driven element of the character. Now, is it more likely the typically male superhero is going to be closer to his usually female love-interest or another male supporting character? So I think that's the psychology behind it, rather than victimizing women. I'm sure it happens, but the mindset that the average writer approaches a female character as a plot-device meant to be slaughtered or even worse, derives glee from killing her off, is not based in reality.

To be fair, I never said anything about the "average writer", I only observed that it happens to female characters far more often than it happens to male characters. Justifying it by saying most comic book leads are male, so therefore their girlfriends/wives must be killed off as a reminder (of whatever) is, to me, kind of weak, not very creative or orignal.

Attempting to justify it by saying that the "initial power" of the impetus of the heroes motivation "fades away" after a time, so that it needs to be "reintroduced" feels like, what is essentially shock value (Kyle Rayner's girlfriend's death, etc...). It's happened to tons of male characters, from Green Lantern, to Spider-Man, to Batman, to Superboy, to Hulk, etc... There are male deaths to be sure (Capt Stacy), but not nearly as often or as "plot devicey".

I am sure you have seen this. I mean, it's a trope for a reason:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge?from=Main.StuffedInTheFridge

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

To be fair, I never said anything about the "average writer", I only observed that it happens to female characters far more often than it happens to male characters. Justifying it by saying most comic book leads are male, so therefore their girlfriends/wives must be killed off as a reminder (of whatever) is, to me, kind of weak, not very creative or orignal.

Fair enough. I think critiques of it being weak or not very creative are more valid than critiques of it being aimed at women or subtly misogynistic, which I think was at the core of the original criticism.

Attempting to justify it by saying that the "initial power" of the impetus of the heroes motivation "fades away" after a time, so that it needs to be "reintroduced" feels like, what is essentially shock value (Kyle Rayner's girlfriend's death, etc...). It's happened to tons of male characters, from Green Lantern, to Spider-Man, to Batman, to Superboy, to Hulk, etc... There are male deaths to be sure (Capt Stacy), but not nearly as often or as "plot devicey".

I am sure you have seen this. I mean, it's a trope for a reason:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge?from=Main.StuffedInTheFridge

Here's a controversial position; aren't most monthly comics featuring colorful superheroes taking on equally colorful and powerful sociopaths in a fantasy world that usually ends its episodic and highly sales-dependent installments with an enticing cliff-hanger, at least somewhat rooted in shock-value? It's what keeps readers coming back month after month.

To keep this on topic.... Lance Bannon, Nick Katzenberg, Nathan Lubensky, Ben Reilly, Fredrick Foswell, Captain Stacy like you said, Ezekiel, Harry and Ned like I said earlier, that seems like a heckuva lot of dead male bodies in Spider-Man alone. Even if you took out the supposed villains (Foswell, Harry and Ned at the time) it's still a good chunk.

 

[Vid Electricz]

Fair enough. I think critiques of it being weak or not very creative are more valid than critiques of it being aimed at women or subtly misogynistic, which I think was at the core of the original criticism.

I think that's definitely a part of it (at least unconsciously), to be sure- but it's not the whole deal.

Here's a controversial position; aren't most monthly comics featuring colorful superheroes taking on equally colorful and powerful sociopaths in a fantasy world that usually ends its episodic and highly sales-dependent installments with an enticing cliff-hanger, at least somewhat rooted in shock-value? It's what keeps readers coming back month after month.

Sure, but "killing off _______" for shock value becomes repetitive, predictable and worst of all, meaningless, when not done right, or for the "right" reasons.

To keep this on topic.... Lance Bannon, Nick Katzenberg, Nathan Lubensky, Ben Reilly, Fredrick Foswell, Captain Stacy like you said, Ezekiel, Harry and Ned like I said earlier, that seems like a heckuva lot of dead male bodies in Spider-Man alone. Even if you took out the supposed villains (Foswell, Harry and Ned at the time) it's still a good chunk.

Spider-Man (and to a larger degree, Marvel) are certainly not the worst culprits as far as this trope goes. That'd go to DC.

 

[NCBIII]

What's the deal with this Peter Parker: Spider-Man .1 series coming out on December 4th??

 

[Spidey_62]

What's the deal with this Peter Parker: Spider-Man .1 series coming out on December 4th??

Just a series of flashback stories featuring Peter Parker as Spidey. There's some really exciting sounding ones in there in terms of creative teams. The 1st thing is a 2 part story by David Morrell and Klaus Janson, should be interesting to see David Morrell's take on Spidey (he's a novel writer famous for creating Rambo).

 

[KaineMorrison]

Just a series of flashback stories featuring Peter Parker as Spidey. There's some really exciting sounding ones in there in terms of creative teams. The 1st thing is a 2 part story by David Morrell and Klaus Janson, should be interesting to see David Morrell's take on Spidey (he's a novel writer famous for creating Rambo).

I knew that name was familiar!

 

[runawayboulder]

"It's over Parker......it's over!"

"NOTHING IS OVER! YOU JUST DON'T TURN IT OFF!"

 

[KaineMorrison]

"It's over Parker......it's over!"

"NOTHING IS OVER! YOU JUST DON'T TURN IT OFF!"

Am I missing something?

 

[runawayboulder]

Am I missing something?

Everything.

It's a (famous) line from the first Rambo movie.

 

[The Joker]

Loved the latest issue. I am really keen to see Aunt May's reaction to Peter dating Anna Maria, especially after her observation of her working in the new Parker Industries.

I wonder what Jonah is going to do about his blackmail situation. A little light bulb went off over his head when he was thinking about Octo-Spidey's spider spy robots.

Say what you will about Otto, but he's doing things Peter probably would never have accomplished. Opening his own company, curing Aunt May's hip condition etc.

 

[Donald Thomas]

Loved the latest issue. I am really keen to see Aunt May's reaction to Peter dating Anna Maria, especially after her observation of her working in the new Parker Industries.

I wonder what Jonah is going to do about his blackmail situation. A little light bulb went off over his head when he was thinking about Octo-Spidey's spider spy robots.

Say what you will about Otto, but he's doing things Peter probably would never have accomplished. Opening his own company, curing Aunt May's hip condition etc.

Aloha,
While I agree with you, it's like I've said in the past. If Peter had stayed in his Back in Black mode, he would be very similar in his overall demeanor as SpOck. But, the character of Peter Parker is NOT one of being an Industrialist or very rich man. As smart as Peter is, he should have been able to sell his web fluid design through a proxy like Mr. Fantastic or Tony Stark ages ago. But then you wouldn't have the lovable semi loser called Peter Parker/The Amazing Spider-Man.The guy who has to work hard to make ends meet.The Everyman. I am continuing to HATE EVERY THING ABOUT THE SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN! Which means that Marvel is doing a great job of telling this story arc for me.Marvel has already seen the light and brought in stories of Peter as Peter because they know that we are getting a little sick of this delusional parasite called Otto Octavius.
Spidey rules

 

[Themanofbat]

The Annual was pretty decent considering it was an Annual...

 

[Donald Thomas]

The Annual was pretty decent considering it was an Annual...

Aloha,
Agreed.
Spidey rules

 

[Will Nolte]

The only problem I had with it was that it just seemed like another issue. It wasn't the typical annual that had more than one story in it. I feel kind of short changed only getting one story...

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

The only problem I had with it was that it just seemed like another issue. It wasn't the typical annual that had more than one story in it. I feel kind of short changed only getting one story...

I miss the late 80's/early 90's annuals, which would have a grab-bag of goodies ranging from four page back-up stories or moving character vignettes to in-depth breakdowns about how Pete's spider-sense works or profiling all the employees of the Daily Bugle. Man, those were the days.

 

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

I miss the late 80's/early 90's annuals, which would have a grab-bag of goodies ranging from four page back-up stories or moving character vignettes to in-depth breakdowns about how Pete's spider-sense works or profiling all the employees of the Daily Bugle. Man, those were the days.

I miss the annuals of the 1960's when they all came out in the summer, shortly after you got out of school for summer vacation and where you got a thick issue jam-packed with all sorts of great features as well as the extended main story itself... that was always a great time to look forward to, as you always knew something different and exciting and special in the way of a story or summer event involving your favorite character was going to happen... that was DEFINITELY getting your money's worth and for just a measly quarter...

now THEM'S beez the days... ...they just don't make 'em like they used to...

 

[Colossal Spoons]

The Annual was pretty decent considering it was an Annual...

I loved it. I could watch Doc Oc maim villains all day.

 

[Themanofbat]

now THEM'S beez the days... ...they just don't make 'em like they used to...

Yep...

 

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

Yep...

got THAT right... back then when an annual came out, it was SOMETHING special... nowadays if there IS an annual that comes out, it's usually just a meh happening and no big shakes and nothing to really look forward to...

 

[Donald Thomas]

got THAT right... back then when an annual came out, it was SOMETHING special... nowadays if there IS an annual that comes out, it's usually just a meh happening and no big shakes and nothing to really look forward to...

Aloha,
Agreed.
Spidey rules

 

[Shockdingo]

Darn you guys for making me sad!...and nostalgic!....and even more sad!