The Temple of Doomed Relationships

[Anita18]

Over thinking... yeah... I'm good at doing that (why else on god's green earth would I be here?!). Thing is, from what little has happened in the past month I'm certain she'll say no.
Isn't that reason enough to drop it? You've said it yourself to not linger around an emotion with zero reciprocity.

I'm utterly confused at this moment. It's like Erzengel says -- if I linger on those feelings it'll get worse since there's no chance with her whatsoever. That's why I was more concerned with developing my own self-confidence and self-esteem (but of course, that's automatically regarded as "becoming a *****e").

Um, if you're certain she'll say no, are you content to just hang out with her as a friend and open yourself up to other women? It's unclear as to what you want to do with her.

Once again, you are focused on the actual identity of the individuals. It's not that difficult to acknowledge that there are two sides to a person - the one that's displayed externally and the one that exists on a more private level. That external self is always an image that you're portraying of yourself out there for the world to see. It's a single image. Despite whatever other dimensions you're trying to work on. People focus on an IDEA OF YOU. Not you completely. Unless they happen to be close friends and family.

During social interactions it's that image that is presented. I believe in that image being as true to your own self as possible, and I've always tried doing that. For some reason women seem to regard that as "friend-worthy", not "relationship-worthy". Well that's fine by me. Just y'know, dismissive-girl, you were special to me in a way no one else was. But I had to suppress that part of me from the social image because apparently it's not working. Apparently what you want is a little more macho in your man. Well good for you, and good bye?

I hope my perspective is a bit clearer now.

I do think there are different sides to different people, but you don't have to treat them like polar opposites. Just different facets of yourself.

And women don't always want a macho man. Sometimes women just aren't attracted to you for whatever reason. They won't even be able to tell you why. There isn't anything about you that you can somehow "fix" to make yourself more attractive to a particular woman. If it was something as simple as dressing more nicely, that's merely superficial.

Even my best friend was befuddled as to why I stayed single for so long. On paper, I'm the perfect woman for a lot of nerdy guys, but for some reason nobody bit. I eventually thought of it like I was just weird and I had to go out and FIND that someone for me.

But we are not talking about long-term relationships here. Of course multiple aspects of the beta-type become just as important as the alpha when you're *in* a healthy relationship. But what about trying to get the girl you like? Does that work on BETA alone? The answer is no. She needs to have some sexual attraction to you. As well as emotional and even on some level, intellectual. Trust, attraction and clarity remember? But for those of us who have zero confidence in their own self, THAT SHOWS and that's a downer. There is nothing wrong in working to build that up.

But you already said you have confidence in many aspects of yourself. IMO you just need to relax and stop overthinking it. The only goal you should have in mind is meeting as many women as possible. Not for sex (well, you can if you want to ), but testing for compatibility.

Someone out there will like you just the way you are. You just have to find her.

I disagree. People can work to change that social-image, if nothing else. And I also disagree with the fact that you're condemned for life if you're socially inept. You can overcome those shortcomings. And no, not in trying to be pretentious. People have more than just one aspect of those labels in them. For guys like myself, we REALLY DO need to come off as less needy and more confident.

I'm not even sure what "socially inept" means anymore. If you have any sense of empathy and can tell when someone's getting uncomfortable, that's basically all you need. Not everyone needs to be a James Bond with the conversation.

I'm come across very socially popular people who are needy and extremely unconfident. So it doesn't always come one or the other. If you can learn to walk away from a (non)relationship when you're not getting what you want, I think that'd be a huge confidence booster in other people's eyes.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Um, if you're certain she'll say no, are you content to just hang out with her as a friend and open yourself up to other women? It's unclear as to what you want to do with her.

*goes deep into self-questioning*

I adore her. Profoundly so. It feels like i'm in High School again, afraid to lose her companionship. Like a less-cool Robert Downey Jr. from Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. But if she says no, if she really doesn't feel the same way then yes I'll be content with being her friend and OF COURSE be open to others.

And women don't always want a macho man. Sometimes women just aren't attracted to you for whatever reason. They won't even be able to tell you why. There isn't anything about you that you can somehow "fix" to make yourself more attractive to a particular woman. If it was something as simple as dressing more nicely, that's merely superficial.

Even my best friend was befuddled as to why I stayed single for so long. On paper, I'm the perfect woman for a lot of nerdy guys, but for some reason nobody bit. I eventually thought of it like I was just weird and I had to go out and FIND that someone for me.

But you already said you have confidence in many aspects of yourself. IMO you just need to relax and stop overthinking it. The only goal you should have in mind is meeting as many women as possible. Not for sex (well, you can if you want to ), but testing for compatibility.

Someone out there will like you just the way you are. You just have to find her.

....

Thanks A.

I'm not even sure what "socially inept" means anymore. If you have any sense of empathy and can tell when someone's getting uncomfortable, that's basically all you need. Not everyone needs to be a James Bond with the conversation.

I'm come across very socially popular people who are needy and extremely unconfident. So it doesn't always come one or the other. If you can learn to walk away from a (non)relationship when you're not getting what you want, I think that'd be a huge confidence booster in other people's eyes.

I suppose what's holding me back is, of course, unexpressed feelings, but also the suggestion that I might've screwed it up on my own for being dismissive of her romantically for over a year. Talking to her now, it'd seem like I was doing her a favour. But maybe she's that good at hiding herself? She's not shy per se, but very much the kind of person who keeps to herself. Only, whenever we're around she talks a good deal lot with me. But no, never anything that gives away any deeper sentiments. And y'know what? Yes, that's fine with me.

The other day we were talking about past relationships and she told me how she had never been with a guy before. Hell she then went on to say how girls keep responding to Alpha-types but what they really want is a Beta. In her own words: "You gotta get in the Beta way, be friends really well, and then show the Alpha side. Not the other way round." When I told her that then she's still saying that the "Alpha" is the winning touch. She laughed and said "yeah guess so." I tried calling her later, and SHE DIDN'T PICK UP.

Today she returned my flash-drive and filled it with sweet little sad songs about unrequited love and shameless admiration. When I told her about that she laughed again and said "I guess it reflects my changing moods".

What are these? Tests? Non-verbal signs? JUST THINGS I'M CONJURING UP BECAUSE IT'S WHAT I WANT THEM TO BE?

This other girl I know seems all the more responsive though. She's a common friend, and keeps telling me how "not everyone deserves an artist's love", CONTACTS ME instead and tells me of her upcoming birthday on the 14th. For what it's worth I think SHE's more interested in me than I am. Oh, and we talk. We talk about the dumbest things.

God this is like a terrible episode of High School Musical, directed by Marc Webb isn't it?

I dunno.

 

[Anita18]

....

Thanks A.

No prob. You're way more open-minded than *cough*some others here.

I suppose what's holding me back is, of course, unexpressed feelings, but also the suggestion that I might've screwed it up on my own for being dismissive of her romantically for over a year. Talking to her now, it'd seem like I was doing her a favour. But maybe she's that good at hiding herself? She's not shy per se, but very much the kind of person who keeps to herself. Only, whenever we're around she talks a good deal lot with me. But no, never anything that gives away any deeper sentiments. And y'know what? Yes, that's fine with me.

The other day we were talking about past relationships and she told me how she had never been with a guy before. Hell she then went on to say how girls keep responding to Alpha-types but what they really want is a Beta. In her own words: "You gotta get in the Beta way, be friends really well, and then show the Alpha side. Not the other way round." When I told her that then she's still saying that the "Alpha" is the winning touch. She laughed and said "yeah guess so." I tried calling her later, and SHE DIDN'T FUKIN PICK UP.

Today she returned my flash-drive and filled it with sweet little sad songs about unrequited love and shameless admiration. When I told her about that she laughed again and said "I guess it reflects my changing moods".

What are these? Tests? Non-verbal signs? JUST THINGS I'M CONJURING UP BECAUSE IT'S WHAT I WANT THEM TO BE?

If you told her about the songs, it seems like she's as equally shy/scared too. So I predict absolutely nothing will happen until one of you makes an actual move.

No really, I've been there too. There was some really cutesy back-and-forth with a guy in college who lived down the hall from me freshman year. But neither of us made a move and we're now living completely separate lives, and I'm on the brink of being engaged to someone else. Which is actually fine with me because the more I see what he's been up to on Facebook, the more I don't think we'd be a good match to begin with. But God he was a good-looking guy and it felt really good to be complimented by a good-looking guy.

 

[Anita18]

Also, some tips about how to get the hot babe if you're a dweeb, from Christina Hendricks herself:

Hendricks and Arend met in 2007 when they were introduced by her Mad Men co-star Vincent Kartheiser and she found herself immediately drawn to him.

She recalls to the March issue of the UK edition of Cosmopolitan: 'Geoffrey walked in and I was like, ‘Who is this guy?’ He had amazing hair and was all dishevelled - he was running late and everyone was waiting for him. He just came in with this very high energy.

'He was just charming, funny and very magnetic. I got his number that night under the pretence of, "We could just be friends." And of course I immediately went home and Googled him.'

After a few weeks of the pair meeting as part of a group, they finally had a date, and then it was Hendricks who said the L word first.

She said: 'I cracked it out in such a big way. I was like, "You make me want to have a family." I freaked him out a bit...Thank God I didn’t spook him enough to make him leave.'

Fortunately he didn't leave the pair ended up marrying in New York in 2009.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...ame-strong-started-dating-Geoffrey-Arend.html

Actually, there are no tips there. Sometimes the hot babe just finds the dweeb irresistible.

 

[Dark Raven]

Guys, even the best of the PUA stuff does not actually require you to step foot in a bar ever. They are a convenient setting in some areas, and so when those books are written some of the stuff is implicitly in a bar setting, but it all need not be explicit.

Women have lives outside the clubs, and they are every bit as accessible even when they are not all dolled up with their drunk girlfriends.

Lot of the stuff you could pick up from those books can be applied to the girl you bump into at any store, or even one taking a walk with her poodle, waiting for a haircut, or even one who knocks on your door as part of a political campaign.

You also do not have to do everything right. If you have even half ways decent skill, and avoid making big mistakes, and have taken from what has been broken down into a science, then you are still miles ahead of the average frustrated chump, and you will still have plenty of options.

You still need to practice and experience, but you don’t really need bars or clubs for that.

Bottom line is if you don’t like drinking, and you don’t like Bars, then don’t go into them. Bars are not the end all be all of finding women. Unless you are looking for a girl who likes to get drunk.

Well I am open to trying things outside of bars or nightclub settings where people are more themselves. But then, how does it differ that much from these books on skills in starting up a conversation with anyone and good social interaction/ just being friendly?

One of the reasons I don't like bars or clubs settings as opposed to other settings is that women seem to be in a particular frame of mind in there. They maybe have a specific picture of what they are looking for, and are on the hunt, so to speak in there. They seem less open to different types also because they feel it is a place where men are precisely going to try to pick them up, and so they might judge everyone as trying the same thing on them. In different settings, they might not have their guard up as much.

Which is whyI wonder why these kinds of places do typically still seem to be the places where dating coaches might take their trainees to practise their newly found skills. Is it because they reason that if the trainees can learn to do it there, they can do it anywhere? Or is it because they think these places are where women are the most receptive?

And which POA do you refer to? Links to books/ websites please?

I've watched a few videos by David DeAngelo (but not everything) but some of the other POAs he's invited to speak in his seminars seem to say some stuff that sounds really rather ridiculous (almost the cliche of what you'd expect them to say that would get parodied by someone else) and you have to wonder whether it really works.

The question is what types of women will you attract if you try the stuff that these POAs advocate? Will they just be the types who are only there for the sex, or will you get some women who want a real relationship? I know some men who do try these POA methods and sure, some women seem to be charmed by them. However, many other women almost roll their eyes at those same men and find the men to be womanisers who are just trying to constantly pick up anything in a skirt and thus steer clear of them. Now I don't know if it's because these men in question overdo their methods such that they become laughable caricatures and they need to find more of a balance so that they use some of these techniques but are also being real as well.

 

[Erzengel]

Power of Attorney?

 

[Dark Raven]

So then, what happens to a relationship if attraction dies?

Not sure. Maybe you'd be better off asking someone who's been married more than 30 years. Your parents, mayhaps?

I know my parents, my mom said it isn't like you're "in love" anymore, but the other person is family and you love them like family.

I talked to an older gentleman earlier this week (I think I did mention my special gift here - people spill their guts to me) who raved about his wonderful marriage of 37 years...until he lost his wife to cancer 5 years ago. He was there at the very end, sponge-bathing her at her weakest, at 66 lbs. A friend asked him how he could stand looking at her like that. He said quite simply, that he didn't marry her because of what she looked like, but because of the entirety of her.

At the very end, she told him that it was ok to remarry, which he's open to doing if he meets the right woman. It was just nice to talk to someone like that who has such a positive outlook on life and had a very happy and healthy and supportive marriage. It was just like talking to Carl from Up, except he hadn't yet turned into a cantankerous old man.

I would agree with this.

I've heard it said by Dietrich Bonhoeffer when he was in prison (for trying to assassinate Adolf Hitler) when giving advice to a friend of his who was going to get married that "you shouldn't be committed to her because you love her. You should love her because you're committed to her" or something to that effect.

And I guess what that's getting at is that attraction, or even feelings of being in love with a person or even feeling love for that person will come and go, or even die. If that's the only basis for a relationship, then once that feeling subsides (as it will inevitably in any relationship), it would automatically mean that any commitment would go out the window. However, if you're committed to that person (and you've even committed to commitment), then when attraction or those feelings of love disappear, you can still choose to love that person. It's looking at the commitment you've made with each other and deciding to love the other person through thick and thin - eg through sickness and health, better or worse etc.

I'm not saying it's easy or even sometimes always practical as there will be cases where it could be extremely detrimental to stay together (eg in an abusive relationship) or one party may indeed not be committed. But what I'm saying is that attraction and feelings of being in love will waver so that can't be the overall determining factor.

 

[Dark Raven]

Power of Attorney?

Sorry, I meant PUA - Pick Up Artists. I was thinking of points of articulation before as I was writing something else on a toy forum and was using that same abbreviation, so accidentally transposed it here.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

So then, what happens to a relationship if attraction dies?

Nothing needs to happen, if that's what you're implying. If the relationship is based on attraction, then it dies. If you're relationship becomes more important than this, maybe because there are kids involved or you have amassed a lot of stuff together or maybe both simply want for this to be a longer term relationship, then lack of attraction doesn't mean a thing.

But we are not talking about long-term relationships here. Of course multiple aspects of the beta-type become just as important as the alpha when you're *in* a healthy relationship. But what about trying to get the girl you like? Does that work on BETA alone? The answer is no. She needs to have some sexual attraction to you. As well as emotional and even on some level, intellectual. Trust, attraction and clarity remember? But for those of us who have zero confidence in their own self, THAT SHOWS and that's a downer. There is nothing wrong in working to build that up.

What about it? You could be the most confident alpha male in America and the girl you like may shack up with the biggest panty-waist in America. There's nothing you can do to "get the girl you like".

I disagree. People can work to change that social-image, if nothing else. And I also disagree with the fact that you're condemned for life if you're socially inept. You can overcome those shortcomings. And no, not in trying to be pretentious. People have more than just one aspect of those labels in them. For guys like myself, we REALLY DO need to come off as less needy and more confident.

Sure, maybe you do, but the point you're missing is that there are many things you could *fix* about yourself, probably an infinite number of things, and it won't mean the girl of your dreams will love you for it. Think about girls who only like black guys? What're you gonna do? Become black? Become Asian? Become 6'2" with a 12 inch dong and a million dollars? This is that whole "be yourself" aspect.

Sure I have shortcomings, we all do, I just don't care that I have them. I'll always have shortcomings, and I'll only work on them if they bother me. I could give two sh**s how many women find them unattractive.

If you are shy or "social inept" that probably won't change in the next 60 seconds, so if you want a relationship somehow that guy has to attract a mate with all his "shortcomings".

The biggest problem with PUA stuff is you aren't being confident you're just doing things that appear confident.

 

[Erzengel]

I disagree. People can work to change that social-image, if nothing else. And I also disagree with the fact that you're condemned for life if you're socially inept. You can overcome those shortcomings. And no, not in trying to be pretentious. People have more than just one aspect of those labels in them. For guys like myself, we REALLY DO need to come off as less needy and more confident.

I was very shy, but as I became more confident and actually stopped worrying about every little thing, I was able to change. BUT, I did a lot of changing because of experiences and making mistakes.

Also, I worked with what I had. There are some things in my control and obviously stuff I can't control and I went from there.

I mean if you're 5'2, a stutterer, or balding, not much you can do with that.

I think people can work on aspects of themselves but not necessarily a 180 degree turn.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

The biggest problem with PUA stuff is you aren't being confident you're just doing things that appear confident.

Are you aware that some of that useless PUA stuff might actually give instructions on how to become confident? Some of the stuff out there focusses on just that.

Experience is important, but it is not always the only teacher. That alone will work for everyone all the time.

When I first had experiences with women, most of them were positive, so I did not realize the mistakes I was making. Much of the time I succeeded in spite of myself, and thought I was doing right, as I had no basis for cause and effect.

It was not until another soldier took me under his wing and actually gave me detailed instructions, criticism and feedback that I really started learning how much I did not know.

The most important lesson he taught me; That I will not ever know everything, and should therefor never stop learning or be dismissive of new information.

Look at the logic of the idea that experience is the "only" way to learn.

Would it be wise to just put a guy in a real boxing match, without him taking a single lesson, never having worked on a heavy bag, a speed bag, or had a coach show him what a Jab is?

No he would get the living hell beat out of him, and he would have no idea why he is in pain, because he does not even have the foundation of knowledge to compare his experience too. He may make a bunch of assumptions. Maybe he was not fast enough? Or the other guy just too strong?

If we just keep dropping the guy in fight after right, he just might learn some stuff, and he might even become good at what he is doing. That is only an extremely small% of guys who would rise above and become good at it that way, IF they had a lot of natural talent. The rest would likely become broken down and injured to the point where it is pointless to continue, and they may not have ever won a single round.

Not that training can turn anyone into a great boxer, but it sure as hell will make them a better one than they were, more than just regular beatings will.

That is because there is a larger amount who have the unfortunate experience of perpetual failures, which is caused by bad experiences, and their confidence is almost entirely gone. They don’t know what they did to display their lack of confidence, but they did, and that is why they continue to fail, and just telling them to go get more experiences and "be confident" is not going to help them out at all when they have been given no real knowledge to make them feel confident.

Can knowing things increase a man’s confidence? Yes it can. Knowledge is power. Power gives confidence. If he feels prepared, and has a knowledge base he will even know where he went wrong when he does fail, and that it is ok to strike out, and he will be able to keep his confidence when things don’t go his way.

With the right knowledge he eventually will experience success when he puts it into practice, and that is where experience will start to help him as it will give him more confidence in what he is doing. Continued success will build confidence a lot more than continued failures where they don’t even have a knowledge base to start from.

Heaven forbid they use some stupid website like http://heartiste.wordpress.com/category/game/ & http://heartiste.wordpress.com/category/relationships/ as an online resource or buy a damn book from a guy like Paul Janka and his 88 page manual (good for guys who don’t care for the bar setting), just some stupid e-book from another dumbass Harvard grad.

In every endeavor there are people who can naturally figure things out, but some people really need some foundation knowledge, and for them that can give some real confidence.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

The problem is the only "fight" your having is "fighting" to get laid when you follow this PUA stuff. It doesn't teach you anything about relating to people, making connections with people or starting relationships. In fact I think PUAs are pretty pathetic because they're so worked up over getting laid they forget that women are not holes for their penis. No one should be scared to be friends with a chick, in fact, if you can't be "just friends" without effing it up, you can't be more than friends. Yes, it's wonderful to have confidence, most agree it's an attractive trait, but confidence is confidence. It's not a tool for getting laid.

Also, if you spit game at a lot of women, yeah, more than a few will sleep with you, especially if you're decent looking. This shouldn't be treated as some startling revelation. Even if it is to some "just go hit on every girl until one gives it up" isn't really sound advice. Yeah, anyone could've told you that.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

The problem is the only "fight" your having is "fighting" to get laid when you follow this PUA stuff. It doesn't teach you anything about relating to people, making connections with people or starting relationships. In fact I think PUAs are pretty pathetic because they're so worked up over getting laid they forget that women are not holes for their penis. No one should be scared to be friends with a chick, in fact, if you can't be "just friends" without effing it up, you can't be more than friends. Yes, it's wonderful to have confidence, most agree it's an attractive trait, but confidence is confidence. It's not a tool for getting laid.

Also, if you spit game at a lot of women, yeah, more than a few will sleep with you, especially if you're decent looking. This shouldn't be treated as some startling revelation. Even if it is to some "just go hit on every girl until one gives it up" isn't really sound advice. Yeah, anyone could've told you that.

The issue most of the guys coming on here are having, is failure to attract women in the first place. Those same guys can learn something from PUA’s and players. Nobody is saying they have to use those social skills to cheat on women.

They don’t need to become a PUA, or a player. Not all game advice is PUA advice, which yes usually only applies to getting laid.

Yes "game" is just a "word" for "social skills", you have pointed that out several times. The only reason they don’t just call it social skills, is because that is too vague, and they mean more specifically social skills that relate to dealing with women in attraction and the handling of relationships. Which is a mouthful, so they just call that set of social skills "game".

Lots of the guys having failures in relationship or attracting women in the first place do not have natural social skills, or don’t manage to figure them out from experience alone.

They try to get experience, but get stuck in a trap of failure, and failed relationships, and have no idea what they are continuing to do wrong. Their confidence is dead in the water. The NEED to learn those social skills, and in their case experience alone and "just be confident" is not cutting it when they don’t have the knowledge on how to become confident.

The site I still advocate the most is not just for aspiring players and frat boys wanting to get laid by random girls all the time. Plenty of the information can apply to relationships, and help men with their social skills in other walks of life in general. There is a whole category for relationships: http://www.heartiste.wordpress.com/category/relationships/

 

[SuperMike335!!]

^ I should add to that there is crossover in the social skills, in game is those social skills of Alphas, or leadership social skills you can call it, and yes many of them DO apply to social interaction with other men.

You are likely well aware already how men who often fail with women tend to be the same guys who get picked on in the social circle of other men.

Their lack of social skill not only makes attracting women difficult, but even their relationships with their friends, family etc... In the total picture there is a lot more to it than just going out and getting laid.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

The issue most of the guys coming on here are having, is failure to attract women in the first place. Those same guys can learn something from PUA’s and players. Nobody is saying they have to use those social skills to cheat on women.

They don’t need to become a PUA, or a player. Not all game advice is PUA advice, which yes usually only applies to getting laid.

Yes "game" is just a "word" for "social skills", you have pointed that out several times. The only reason they don’t just call it social skills, is because that is too vague, and they mean more specifically social skills that relate to dealing with women in attraction and the handling of relationships. Which is a mouthful, so they just call that set of social skills "game".

Lots of the guys having failures in relationship or attracting women in the first place do not have natural social skills, or don’t manage to figure them out from experience alone.

They try to get experience, but get stuck in a trap of failure, and failed relationships, and have no idea what they are continuing to do wrong. Their confidence is dead in the water. The NEED to learn those social skills, and in their case experience alone and "just be confident" is not cutting it when they don’t have the knowledge on how to become confident.

The site I still advocate the most is not just for aspiring players and frat boys wanting to get laid by random girls all the time. Plenty of the information can apply to relationships, and help men with their social skills in other walks of life in general. There is a whole category for relationships: http://www.heartiste.wordpress.com/category/relationships/

Yeah, still not getting it. This isn't She's All That so you really can't morph someone into something they're not. You certainly cannot teach attraction. I know what makes me "attractive". I'm good looking, I say funny, clever things, and therefore girls find me attractive. Attraction isn't a smart bomb though. It's not a laser guided missile. You might hit your target, but there is going to be a lot of collateral damage. So attraction simply isn't enough of a skill. It isn't really a skill at all.

"Game" is not "social skills", it's a perversion of social skills. Yeah, social skills can get you laid, they can also get you a promotion, and sometimes they even land you in hot water. The purpose of having them though is good unto themselves.

A lot of what you say is fairly insulting. Just because I haven't banged my friend Valerie doesn't mean I failed that relationship. There are a lot of reasons we never formally hooked up and frankly, hindsight being 20/20, she's one of my closer friends because we did not. When you meet someone you just immediately start spitting game? Why? That seems to me like a compulsion. So trade the compulsion of being shy and being a doormat, with the compulsion of asking girls to f***. That never addresses the core problem does it? You certainly may land a lot of fish doing that, but you'll miss the ones that count.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Besides this is all the advice you need right here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u391z5l6WY

Has the S-word in the clip.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

Yeah, still not getting it. This isn't She's All That so you really can't morph someone into something they're not. You certainly cannot teach attraction. I know what makes me "attractive". I'm good looking, I say funny, clever things, and therefore girls find me attractive. Attraction isn't a smart bomb though. It's not a laser guided missile. You might hit your target, but there is going to be a lot of collateral damage. So attraction simply isn't enough of a skill. It isn't really a skill at all.

"Game" is not "social skills", it's a perversion of social skills. Yeah, social skills can get you laid, they can also get you a promotion, and sometimes they even land you in hot water. The purpose of having them though is good unto themselves.

A lot of what you say is fairly insulting. Just because I haven't banged my friend Valerie doesn't mean I failed that relationship. There are a lot of reasons we never formally hooked up and frankly, hindsight being 20/20, she's one of my closer friends because we did not. When you meet someone you just immediately start spitting game? Why? That seems to me like a compulsion. So trade the compulsion of being shy and being a doormat, with the compulsion of asking girls to f***. That never addresses the core problem does it? You certainly may land a lot of fish doing that, but you'll miss the ones that count.

Ok, so you got an issue with all of game theory? Fine. Not for eveybody.

Going by your logic nobody can or should try to learn any game, or learn any traits that are universally attractive, because then they will miss out on what is the special one person in life they were meant for?

Show me where I've said that the second a guys talks to a girl he should ask her to ****? Or that no guy should have female friends, and if he does he's a failure?

Did you just assume that stuff and take is as a huge personal insult?

You cannot look at everything through red tinted angry glasses making everything I say a grave personal insult to you.

Anger is not good for your blood pressure.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Ok, so you got an issue with all of game theory? Fine. Not for eveybody.

Going by your logic nobody can or should try to learn any game, or learn any traits that are universally attractive, because then they will miss out on what is the special one person in life they were meant for?

Show me where I've said that the second a guys talks to a girl he should ask her to ****? Or that no guy should have female friends, and if he does he's a failure?

Did you just assume that stuff and take is as a huge personal insult?

You cannot look at everything through red tinted angry glasses making everything I say a grave personal insult to you.

Anger is not good for your blood pressure.

Well you were pretty blunt about how you have this voracious sexual appetite precluding you from having hot female friends, that when men cheat they still can "love" that person, and that everything goes back to "getting her to your place". That incredibly rough acts of sex do not warrant discussion, because, hey, who cares if she has never been choked before during sex. She must love it. Those are some pretty strong compulsions I lack, and I don't think are healthy for people who are too shy or too intimidated by women to talk to them or hit on them. Getting laid shouldn't validate your confidence level, it also shouldn't validate your social skills.

Also, I've known a lot of PUAs and most of them didn't get laid a lot, at least compared to what I'd think is average for a single guy. They certainly don't get hit on anymore. The only ones I knew who were successful had either a lot of money, or free time, and were already attractive enough anyways. They still were dependent on their 'game' though. It seems to me like a Pryamid Scheme. The savvy PUA on the stage, projecting wild notions of success and confidence, offering to share information with others who would go share that information with lesser PUAs in training. Yeah, like I said, Pryamid Scheme. Confidence to them is a commody in short supply.

I believe none of this.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

Well you were pretty blunt about how you have this voracious sexual appetite precluding you from having hot female friends, that when men cheat they still can "love" that person, and that everything goes back to "getting her to your place". That incredibly rough acts of sex do not warrant discussion, because, hey, who cares if she has never been choked before during sex. She must love it. Those are some pretty strong compulsions I lack, and I don't think are healthy for people who are too shy or too intimidated by women to talk to them or hit on them. Getting laid shouldn't validate your confidence level, it also shouldn't validate your social skills.

Where did you get the idea I was suggesting that other guys should not have hot female friends? That is my OWN personal issue, and how I deal with it, because I'm not proud of being a cheater, and I don't want to be tempted.

Go ahead and have female friends if thats not an issue for you.

Did I say that "all" girls liked to be choked during sex? Obviously I test the waters on that with escalation. If the girl seems timid and other roughness seems to be scaring her I’m not so stupid as to ignore how she is responding to what I’m doing. If level 7 roughness is too rough for her do you actually think I would take it to level 10?

Did you get the assumption that I just wrap my big meat hook around a girl’s neck like "surprise! I got you now B****! RAWRRR" and just strangle half the life out of her?

 

[Dark Raven]

I think, like everything else, you have to take what is good and appropriate for you out of these pieces of advice or techniques that people have to offer. I don't think one should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

These techniques that PUAs teach could be useful in certain social situations, because they can enable you to have confidence, or at least to fake confidence until you really are confident. It's a case of faking it till you make it. It's like teaching. Not everyone is confident when they stand up in front of others, but they learn certain techniques to give them that added boost at the start, until they become confident in themselves. It's learning to act in that way, until some of it becomes second nature.

I did that when I was a lot younger with speaking on the telephone. I was very nervous to talk, and would often get tongue tied or simply wouldn't know what to say. For some people, it comes naturally. For me, at the time, it didn't, simply because I didn't have any experience of it. Therefore, I used a script with different planned responses or standard phrases (eg, remembering to introduce who I am at the start, asking the other person how they are, closing the conversation in a polite way etc). Now all of this has become second nature and I don't need to rely on any script anymore, and am very confident speaking on the phone. Yes, it might've sounded a bit stilted at first, but with practice, it became more natural, and when I had it ingrained in my head, I didn't need to keep looking at the script anymore, because I automatically knew what to say at certain points of the conversation.

That's how I would view some of these techniques by PUAs. They're just an extra added aid to enabling you to push through simply being only a friend with a woman to possibly being something more, and creating attraction. I wouldn't use it as a technique to get laid, but simply as something that may frame you in a different way to just being the "nice guy" that women only want to be friends with.

I can interact socially with women just fine most of the time, but there needs to sometimes be something to fall back upon if you're not feeling confident, almost like an aide memoire. It's a bit like learning to play an instrument by ear as well as learning to sight read. If you lose your place in a score while sight reading and you can't play by ear, then it's easy to make a big hash of a piece of music. However, if you can also play by ear, then even if you are scrambling to find your way, you can still partially fake the general sound of the piece until you do find the right place.

One shouldn't rely upon these PUA techniques alone though, as I don't think they provide substance in of themselves, especially when you want to have a more meaningful relationship. There are many other things one needs to learn in relationships and social interaction. I think though that these PUA techniques can help at the start, or even along the way, so I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand completely, as long as its success isn't measured in terms of whether you've managed to bed someone at the end of the session.

I do think it can create a faux confidence upon which one can fall back upon, but I don't think it really truly deals with actual confidence or self image issues that one may be having internally. Some of these have to be addressed separately. However, if you can't even get past the starting block, these PUA techniques can give you some kind of starter and even help you appear confident so that women will be attracted to you, and that might in turn help your self image or confidence internally.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

Also, I've known a lot of PUAs and most of them didn't get laid a lot, at least compared to what I'd think is average for a single guy.

If that's the case they sure were not a PUA. They may have wanted to be, but bad results means they are doing it wrong. If you are doing it wrong, you are no PUA.

I do know some that have a LOT of success at what they do.

Incidently I never called myself a PUA, and won't, because that is not what I did, or ever was my goal.

 

[DV8]

did you get the assumption that i just wrap my big meat hook around a girl’s neck like "surprise! I got you now b****! Rawrrr" and just strangle half the life out of her?

lmfao!

 

[Anita18]

And I thought ME and SuperMike were supposed to be arch enemies!

The question is what types of women will you attract if you try the stuff that these POAs advocate? Will they just be the types who are only there for the sex, or will you get some women who want a real relationship? I know some men who do try these POA methods and sure, some women seem to be charmed by them. However, many other women almost roll their eyes at those same men and find the men to be womanisers who are just trying to constantly pick up anything in a skirt and thus steer clear of them. Now I don't know if it's because these men in question overdo their methods such that they become laughable caricatures and they need to find more of a balance so that they use some of these techniques but are also being real as well.

Not me. Nor any of my relatives/friends, who are all smart. Some of them are even gorgeous.

But we're all too intelligent to fall for that sctick, if used straight-up.

Even so, I'll admit that there are SOME PUA techniques that you can use and learn from. SuperMike said my bf was using PUA techniques and I ed since if any of you met him, he'd seem like the biggest walking doormat ever. But he doesn't smother me, he never calls (well, he never calls anybody ) he basically tells me what his plans are and then asks me if I'm up for them. Now, I don't think he's gaming me by doing that, those are just natural behaviors for him. But they're very general tenets of PUA.

I was very shy, but as I became more confident and actually stopped worrying about every little thing, I was able to change. BUT, I did a lot of changing because of experiences and making mistakes.

Also, I worked with what I had. There are some things in my control and obviously stuff I can't control and I went from there.

I mean if you're 5'2, a stutterer, or balding, not much you can do with that.

I think people can work on aspects of themselves but not necessarily a 180 degree turn.

Funny, I'm a stutterer too and I've done some programs for it. My first time, there was a guy who was probably 5'8", overweight, balding, wore glasses, and had a SEVERE stutter. It was worse than mine.

And who was with him at the program, all four days of it? His tall gorgeous fiancee. He told us he wanted to work on his speaking so he could give a toast at his wedding.

For what it's worth, he was the bravest and the most go-getter of all of us, always the first to try something or put himself out there. I wasn't all that surprised that he was able to bag such a nice beautiful woman. In a lot of cases, guys have it easy since we women forgive A LOT if you have an awesome personality. It's much rarer to find a homely woman with a handsome man.

 

[LOBO3315a]

 

[Anita18]

One shouldn't rely upon these PUA techniques alone though, as I don't think they provide substance in of themselves, especially when you want to have a more meaningful relationship. There are many other things one needs to learn in relationships and social interaction. I think though that these PUA techniques can help at the start, or even along the way, so I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand completely, as long as its success isn't measured in terms of whether you've managed to bed someone at the end of the session.

I remember quite a few pages back, someone asked for advice about how to handle the loneliness and being shouldered with three kids when his wife of 9 years was going to be gone on a business trip halfway across the world for a few weeks, and SuperMike suggested he purposely not pick up some of her calls (from Europe!) and we were like, "WTF!"

Yeah, if you're not going to be a straight up PUA, you need to have the intelligence to pick out what's going to be useful to you and what isn't.

And again, my bf's various behaviors that happen to be PUA techniques aren't urges he has to fight. It isn't like he's sitting by his phone, actively resisting calling me and beating himself up if he makes a move towards it.