BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK. - Part 5

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[jokesonm3]

Unfortunately, I think by removing Snyder and delaying JL even further would only end up hurting the DCEU more than it would helping it.

Warner Bros and a lot of people have already invested too much money and time into this universe and backing out now would probably end up being more harmful than good.

Said this before in another thread but:


Delay Justice League to late 2018 and optionally move the Flash film 4 months up to JL's spot on November 2017 if it's possible due to production, it can survive Star Wars 8 with a few weeks of no competition to make its money, get the solo films out first, after that the DCEU's roster should hopefully look like this:

2016: Batman v Superman & Suicide Squad

2017: Wonder Woman & The Flash

2018: Aquaman & Justice League (no 2 part films)

So by the time Justice League comes out, the world's already seen the entire league fleshed out by now, Superman in Man of Steel, Batman in BvS, Wonder Woman, Flash and Aquaman in their respective films, and Cyborg later on.

Let each solo film get both critical and commercial success for each JLA character so by the time Justice League releases the reputation of the DCEU is fixed.
I mean picture this, Wonder Woman film

Flash film

Aquaman film

etc. after all these successful films both critically and at the box office everyone will love these characters, and that's how you build hype for the Justice League film and wipe away the memories of Snyder.

 

[Kanon]

IF the events of BvS are already part of an altered and new timeline, as a result of Barry's warning, then I'm curious to see on what happened in the original/prime one.

Did Superman even join the Justice League in the original one? Some have theorized that Batman was successful in impaling Clark with the spear, which led to a temporary death for him (Clark) but a permanent one for Martha because no one was around to save her. It's also possible that Lois may have died as a result of Clark being temporarily dead as well. So when Clark came back from his temporary death and found out that the two women that he cared about were dead because he wasn't there to save them, courtesy of Batman, he completely lost it.

Could be, but if the point of divergence of the timelines is Batman killing Supes, what about Doomsday? Lex doesn't release him? Why wouldn't he? and if he does, does Batman stop him with kryptonite?

Unrelated question: is it weird that Gotham and Metropolis are right next to each other? I was of the idea that they were at flight travel distance.

 

[InspecktahDeck]

I hope Suicide Squad works.

David Ayer has a knack of making unlikeable characters likeable (Safe sabotage. Those were just crappy, one-dimensional unlikeable characters)

You mean Harley Quinn?

Spoiler

Just messing with you. I mean I don't like Harley but I don't fault anyone for liking her.

I think Suicide Squad's gonna be a winner though. Always thought it would turn out better than this.

Hopefully WW might actually too. People might be a little more open to it based on the reactions Gadot is getting.

 

[thorstone]

IF the events of BvS are already part of an altered and new timeline, as a result of Barry's warning, then I'm curious to see on what happened in the original/prime one.

Did Superman even join the Justice League in the original one? Some have theorized that Batman was successful in impaling Clark with the spear, which led to a temporary death for him (Clark) but a permanent one for Martha because no one was around to save her. It's also possible that Lois may have died as a result of Clark being temporarily dead as well. So when Clark came back from his temporary death and found out that the two women that he cared about were dead because he wasn't there to save them, courtesy of Batman, he completely lost it.

Now we're using our melons. I was thinking maybe the Joker kills Lois in the future and Superman blames Batman for letting him live.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Making fun of this unfathomable train wreck of a movie is far more entertaining than the movie itself. Unfortunately...bed time.

 

[jokesonm3]

Gal's praise from critics wiped away a ton of worry for the Wonder Woman film.

And Suicide Squad, only reason Ayer had one stinker, is all thanks to Skip Woods god awful script and arnold schwarzenegger attempting to revitalize his action career.

 

[RadioSha]

Since this movie is already a bomb with critics, what if this movie is a bomb at the box office?

What if... what if the Justice League movie we are getting is set in a different universe than what we just saw in BvS? Having Flash is convenient in a way that you can literally reboot the franchise via time-travel/dimension travel like X-Men: Days of Future Past making the Ratner movie void?

Oh god. I love that Flash is a thing in the DC universe. This can be a way for them to excuse BvS for being such a disappointment.

 

[Eros]

Could be, but if the point of divergence of the timelines is Batman killing Supes, what about Doomsday? Lex doesn't release him? Why wouldn't he? and if he does, does Batman stop him with kryptonite?

Unrelated question: is it weird that Gotham and Metropolis are right next to each other? I was of the idea that they were at flight travel distance.

the fact that there right next to each other is upsurd upon itself. only done for plot convenience

 

[herolee10]

Said this before in another thread but:


Delay Justice League to late 2018 and optionally move the Flash film 4 months up to JL's spot on November 2017 if it's possible due to production, it can survive Star Wars 8 with a few weeks of no competition to make its money, get the solo films out first, after that the DCEU's roster should hopefully look like this:

2016: Batman v Superman & Suicide Squad

2017: Wonder Woman & The Flash

2018: Aquaman & Justice League (no 2 part films)

So by the time Justice League comes out, the world's already seen the entire league fleshed out by now, Superman in Man of Steel, Batman in BvS, Wonder Woman, Flash and Aquaman in their respective films, and Cyborg later on.

Let each solo film get both critical and commercial success for each JLA character so by the time Justice League releases the reputation of the DCEU is fixed.
I mean picture this, Wonder Woman film

Flash film

Aquaman film

etc. after all these successful films both critically and at the box office everyone will love these characters, and that's how you build hype for the Justice League film and wipe away the memories of Snyder.

The problem is that "The Flash" doesn't even have a screenplay yet, let alone a cast.

And you also have "Infinity War" coming out in 2018, something that JL would have to compete with and be compared to in that year.

And here's another thing, I think Snyder and Terrio pretty much mapped out most the DCEU already so I think the Directors that they've scouted are already working on stories within the confines of that map. If something as drastic as the JL film being delayed were to happen, it could alter a lot of other things as well.

 

[Supermanila]

This is what inference is all about. You don't have to see Superman use his vision to see who is Batman. You don't have to show how Lex figured out their identities (he is clearly a genius and billionaire (foil for superspy billionaire Bruce Wayne)). You can see it in your mind. It's actually good to make the audience have to think about how these things played out.

Or it could just be lazy writing. There's a fine line between "inference" where you don't have to see things so much as they were inferred (which would've probably been fine for comic fans who knows Superman in and out), and lazy writing where liberties are taken and assumes the audience will just figure it out by themselves or left confused.

The scene I was describing would've taken an additional 3 seconds, would've looked cool and a treat to see the reaction of Bruce Wayne that Superman kind of cheated and looked behind the cowl (if I recall correctly Superman didn't use his xray vision at all in the movie), and would've left no confusion or questions for the audience as to how he came about to know Bruce is Batman.

I just see it as a missed opportunity

 

[thorstone]

Could be, but if the point of divergence of the timelines is Batman killing Supes, what about Doomsday? Lex doesn't release him? Why wouldn't he? and if he does, does Batman stop him with kryptonite?

Unrelated question: is it weird that Gotham and Metropolis are right next to each other? I was of the idea that they were at flight travel distance.

I would prefer to film Metropolis as Chicago (due to its proximity to Kansas) and Gotham as NYC.

The shooting locations for Bruce's home were perfect. The location was empty and oppressive.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Here's how I see the knightmare/flash thing:

1. The two things are related. The apocolyptic future is an Injustice nod; Lois' death (it's clearly Lois that has died--not Martha) has made Supes totally evil, with his own army of fascist brutes; Bats has his own faction of rebels. After waking up from that vision/dream (or temporal displacement from Flash?) Bruce is faced with the portal, containing Flash and his warning. The warning is about finding the other metas to stop Supes when/if he goes rogue, and prevent this future.

If this is correct, then my questions are these: what is Darkseid's role in this? It seems like Supes is just evil due to his loss, not under DS' control. Are they working together? Or has Supes' evilness let DS win, but he and Supes are still enemies (of each other and of Bats and co.)?

2. The two things are not related. The knightmare is simply a dream/vision of a future where the 1% chance of rogue Supes has happened. It is fueled by Bruce's fear and paranoia. He wakes up from the dream/vision, and sees Flash, come from a DIFFERENT future to deliver a warning about some other threat which the JL needs to form to combat.

If this is correct, my questions are these:

1. Who is the "he" Bruce was right about? Is it Supes? Is it Darkseid? Lex?

2. What is Lois the key to? It would seem weird, if Lois' death causes Supes' heel turn, to refer to Lois as "the key." it would make more sense to say "save Lois." or "protect Lois"

So what is she the key to? Finding the metas? Getting Bruce to save Martha (THAT future with Martha dead could be the future flash is from, not the Knightmare one)?

Quite literally, no idea. Would have been nice if they hinted at anything about it in the movie.

 

[The Guard]

I feel like there has to be some kind of mythology symbolism Snyder is pushing with that one somehow......hell If I know what it is though and it sure as hell didn't justify it.

From a Christ Figure standpoint, I think the spear might have been his cross.

I'm pretty sure he fell three times, too. He had trouble carrying it...and had to go back and get it, falling a couple of times in the process.

The one time she got it was when he was having someone help him carry it, which is significant.

 

[Rapunzel]

From a Christ Figure standpoint, I think the spear might have been his cross.

I'm pretty sure he fell three times, too.

I think you're right.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Unrelated question: is it weird that Gotham and Metropolis are right next to each other? I was of the idea that they were at flight travel distance.

They were always near each other in the comics. Gotham is an island off of New Jersey, Metropolis is in Delaware.

 

[sepharih]

From a Christ Figure standpoint, I think the spear might have been his cross.

I'm pretty sure he fell three times, too. He had trouble carrying it...and had to go back and get it, falling a couple of times in the process.

The one time she got it was when he was having someone help him carry it, which is significant.

No no, I get all that. The fact that its a spear is almost certainly a reference to the whole spear of destiny thing also (oh so clever snyder). I'm just talking specifically about Lois tossing it in the water...I feel like there's probably some symbolic reasoning behind it.

 

[The Guard]

I keep forgetting...someone asked earlier why he would say "Martha" and not "Mom" when he's trying to appeal to Batman.

He thinks Batman is going to kill him. He's begging Batman that if he kills him, to at least find someone named Martha and save her from Luthor.

In theory, Batman wouldn't get very far trying to find someone named Mom.

Granted, Clark seems almost delirious at that point.

 

[The Guard]

No no, I get all that. The fact that its a spear is almost certainly a reference to the whole spear of destiny thing also (oh so clever snyder). I'm just talking specifically about Lois tossing it in the water...I feel like there's probably some symbolic reasoning behind it.

The "water" side of blood and water?

Returning it from whence it came? The water?

I got nothing.

 

[thorstone]

I felt the mention of the old gods (Zeus) was a good lead-in for Wonder Woman. And the line from WW in BvS about having killed things from other worlds before-- I don't know if that means we're getting some massive monster or a (New) 'God' in the Wonder Woman origin film but it certainly brings sci-fi to her film.

Or it could just be lazy writing. There's a fine line between "inference" where you don't have to see things so much as they were inferred (which would've probably been fine for comic fans who knows Superman in and out), and lazy writing where liberties are taken and assumes the audience will just figure it out by themselves or left confused.

The scene I was describing would've taken an additional 3 seconds, would've looked cool and a treat to see the reaction of Bruce Wayne that Superman kind of cheated and looked behind the cowl (if I recall correctly Superman didn't use his xray vision at all in the movie), and would've left no confusion or questions for the audience as to how he came about to know Bruce is Batman.

I just see it as a missed opportunity

I don't see a fine line in relation to inference. When you're writing something (or filming a movie), you find that you don't need some scenes because the information can simply be relayed elsewhere (by Lex demonstrating that only an idiot wouldn't realize that every time Lois gets in a hot situation her boyfriend shows up to save the day).

I like that it limits the perspective here. We get just enough of what Lex is doing to figure out what has happened. It's not until the end that we find out he was up to a lot more in that ship than building a Doomsday weapon. He contacted Darkseid (and that I expect will explain what caused the decline of the Kryton empire).

You may still get something you're looking for in the r-rated cut.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

I keep forgetting...someone asked earlier why he would say "Martha" and not "Mom" when he's trying to appeal to Batman.

He thinks Batman is going to kill him. He's begging Batman that if he kills him, to at least find someone named Martha and save her from Luthor.

In theory, Batman wouldn't get very far trying to find someone named Mom.

Granted, Clark seems almost delirious at that point.

I wish I had your uncanny mutant ability to decipher bad script writing and turn it into reason man. You must enjoy a love of movies.

 

[Andreth]

Now we're using our melons. I was thinking maybe the Joker kills Lois in the future and Superman blames Batman for letting him live.

Maybe, 'cause the movie scene in the nightmare/Flashforward whatever it was even resembles this one from Injustice. Where Superman blames Batman for the death of Lois "She was my world, and you took her away from me", his reasoning is that Bruce never killed the Joker when he had many chances in the past, and it all lead up to the Joker killing his family.

"She is my world" is said many times in reference to LOIS not Martha. It is repeated 2 times by Clark, one said to Lois directly to her face, and even Pa Kent says "Martha was my world"
So... I'm convinced he's talking about Lois in that dream, not Martha.

Flash asks, "Am I too early?", yes he was too early, in the comics this AU is after the Death of Superman and his comeback.

I really don't think this should be dismissed as something that was shoehorned, made no sense, and that had no purpose.

I'm fearing the Injustice storyline is in store. If they dare to do it at least I hope they do the entire story and the videogame story, where there's another universe in which the Joker's plan failed and all the heroes from that world come to the Injustice World (including a normal and good Superman). In that world, Lois is still alive and happy and Superman fights the Injustice Superman, who wants to bring the Lois that is alive into his world. (he's freaking crazy, he's even involded with Wonder Woman, but he's still obsessed with Lois) In the end the good superman wins and goes back to his world.


Oh well, let's see. I really hope they don't kill her. Seeing female characters being fridged is awful.

 

[TWayneP]

I keep forgetting...someone asked earlier why he would say "Martha" and not "Mom" when he's trying to appeal to Batman.

He thinks Batman is going to kill him. He's begging Batman that if he kills him, to at least find someone named Martha and save her from Luthor.

In theory, Batman wouldn't get very far trying to find someone named Mom.

Granted, Clark seems almost delirious at that point.

No, man. Martha is Clark's Mom. Clark's Mom is named Martha. Batman has just as much chance in finding her either way.

Without Lois popping in to explain, he wouldn't have known who the F Martha was. If he uttered "mom" at least Batman would know its Superman's Mother, so he'd know where to START looking at least. Lois would need to pop in either way.

Holy crap, this is so dumb either way.

 

[RadioSha]

I want to be real with you guys. The religious mumbo jumbo allegories really bothered me.

I think Zack Snyder is socially conservative of wayyy back and is able to present that in his direction and changes in the script.

His nationalist, exploitative take on war in the middle-east with 300, misguided idea of women power with Sucker Punch, and representing Lex being a scientist who hates god but is secretly obsessed with him in BvS (which is, by the way, what uninformed Christians thinks of when thinking about secular people like me)

This movie just sat wrong with me in nearly every way. Good thing Batman is a big fantasy for me and he managed to get that right.

Sorry for bringing up social issues here on this thread, but it truly bothered me.