BvS The Zack Snyder Validation Thread (big rant)

[Diabo]

Avengers is emotional. Joy and happiness are emotions right? Both times i saw that in the cinema the audience was absolutely rapturous. And literally every single person had a big dumb grin on their face when they were walking out.

Feeling sad at someones death isn't the only emotion.

Well, it didn´t make me feel sad in the sad parts, so i can´t really consider it emotional. There´s something wrong with a movie when it approaches tragedy and death and nobody seems to be shaken by it. Yeah, it´s a good movie to smile, and that´s the "problem". I´m smiling while new york is being destroyed.

 

[jmc]

That´s a stupid question. I don´t have a crystal ball. The only thing that matters is that i liked the movie, and quite honestly, i don´t know absolutely anyone who hasn´t liked it, outside a girl who told me she only liked the old Superman. She pretty much decided she wouldn´t like the movie before even see it, simply because she loved the old Superman movies. Weird thing, but happens.

It's not a stupid question in the context of a film like this. Like The Dark Knight and Winter Soldier, MoS isn't a film about a superhero, it's a film about someone finding out who they really are and their place in the world. And as such the costume is secondary. I can easily see the Dark Knight and Winter Soldier working sans superhero costumes because the core of those films are so strong that the Batsuit or Caps Shield don't even really matter. I'm asking you do you think the narrative still works if you remove the Superman costume.

 

[The Question]

Well, it didn´t make me feel sad in the sad parts, so i can´t really consider it emotional. There´s something wrong with a movie when it approaches tragedy and death and nobody seems to be shaken by it. Yeah, it´s a good movie to smile, and that´s the "problem". I´m smiling while new york is being destroyed.

Why don't you think the film wasn't effective in portraying the tragedy and death?

 

[The Endless]

Well, it didn´t make me feel sad in the sad parts, so i can´t really consider it emotional. There´s something wrong with a movie when it approaches tragedy and death and nobody seems to be shaken by it. Yeah, it´s a good movie to smile, and that´s the "problem". I´m smiling while new york is being destroyed.

Joy and laughter is emotion though, so you're being disingenuous when you say Avengers had no emotion.

People aren't smiling at the destruction of NYC. They are smiling seeing these characters become heroes and work together saving people. The whole film is building up to that minute long tracking shot that swoops from Avenger to Avenger. And when it happens it's a joyful, cathartic moment that is extremely effective and nails what it is trying to achieve.

The feeling i get at the end of Man of Steel is... emptiness. Because i don't care about this fictional CGI city that has no personality or life of it's own. It looks fantastic, it really does. Viscerally, it's stunning. But... so what? Why should i care on an emotional level?

A movie doesn't have to be deadly serious in tone to have real emotional value. A movie that is deadly serious in tone doesn't necessarily mean it does have real emotional value. THe tone of the movie isn't a qualifier of seriousness or depth. I don't think you understand this, no offense intended.

And the reason Avengers is more popular is because it makes people feel good about themselves. It makes people happy. Making someone happy and making them laugh is a great way to win them over. Laughter and happiness unites people and transcends any tragedy.

 

[Diabo]

Why don't you think the film wasn't effective in portraying the tragedy and death?

Because during the worst moments nobody seems to be too shaken by all the tragedy and they even have time to crack jokes. The movie focus too much on good humour wich takes the impact away from what´s happening. The atmosphere is too light all the time. It´s a live action cartoon. In a cartoon, people die, things explode, but you never get the feeling that something really bad and sad is happening. It focus too much on fantasy and completely disregards the human side of things. Again, it´s a live action cartoon.

It's not a stupid question in the context of a film like this. Like The Dark Knight and Winter Soldier, MoS isn't a film about a superhero, it's a film about someone finding out who they really are and their place in the world. And as such the costume is secondary. I can easily see the Dark Knight and Winter Soldier working sans superhero costumes because the core of those films are so strong that the Batsuit or Caps Shield don't even really matter. I'm asking you do you think the narrative still works if you remove the Superman costume.

Yes, i think it works without the costume.

 

[The Endless]

Because during the worst moments nobody seems to be too shaken by all the tragedy and they even have time to crack jokes. The movie focus too much on good humour wich takes the impact away from what´s happening. The atmosphere is too light all the time. It´s a live action cartoon. In a cartoon, people die, things explode, but you never get the feeling that something really bad and sad is happening. It focus too much on fantasy and completely disregards the human side of things. Again, it´s a live action cartoon.

So your problem with Avengers is basically that it isn't nihilistic and is more focused on bringing people joy and happiness?

That could be a problem if the tone was so consistent. But it is consistent. It is absolutely perfect all the way through the movie.

Whereas Man of Steel has the destruction of Metropolis and Superman in emotional anguish from having killed someone... then just cuts to comedy scenes.

I mean seriously, can you not see the difference in execution here?

 

[Bwahaha!]

Don't distract yourself with the boards man, finish the movie in one go and tell us what you think!

And yes, Zack Snyder will most def give us great WW actions scenes.

Not distracted. My buddy ate bad sushi last night and let's just say there was more than one bathroom break. LOL. (sorry for the TMI).

Sucker Punch was def ambitious, and an intriguing mix of genres. I'm now understanding the criticisms of his films being shot in grim hues with little to no humorous interaction between characters to give glimpses of light. Not that he needs advice from me, but I think he needs to change up his game. Maybe hurl a curve ball with BvS? Back to SP, sometimes I felt like I'd fallen down the rabbit hole and took a few wrong turns, haha. Boiled down it seemed like a modern interpretation of David vs Goliath with a little Judas Iscariot and Christlike sacrifice thrown in. Snyder appeared to be going for a Matrix-esque depth yet IMO never achieved that.

Didn't love it, didn't hate it. Glad I watched it, though. Next on my Snyder list is 300.

p.s. Honorable mention: Jena Malone never disappoints.

Edit: the dragon battle f/n rocked! btw, I want to watch some scenes again, and I'm thinking I'll do it late tonite with my good friend Mary Jane. This is just the kind of movie to see with her. (wink, wink)

 

[king666]

Well, it didn´t make me feel sad in the sad parts, so i can´t really consider it emotional. There´s something wrong with a movie when it approaches tragedy and death and nobody seems to be shaken by it. Yeah, it´s a good movie to smile, and that´s the "problem". I´m smiling while new york is being destroyed.

 

[Diabo]

Joy and laughter is emotion though, so you're being disingenuous when you say Avengers had no emotion.

People aren't smiling at the destruction of NYC. They are smiling seeing these characters become heroes and work together saving people. The whole film is building up to that minute long tracking shot that swoops from Avenger to Avenger. And when it happens it's a joyful, cathartic moment that is extremely effective and nails what it is trying to achieve.

They´re smiling while things are going down and thousands are dying. The only thing that matters in the movie is The Avengers looking cool and funny. Everything else is secondary. They could as well be fighting in the middle of nothing, that it would have had the same impact on the audience. The tragedy is way too superficial. I couldn´t feel anything.

I´ve seen all those super hero movies with so many different people, that there´s no doubt in my mind wich movies have the biggest impact on people. At least the ones i know. I must have seen The Avengers with more than 2000 people, at different times. My father owns a cine club that screens movies in the summer on the outside, and i used to work with him.i can´t remember one single time where the audience showed any kind of emotion outside of laughter.

MOS had mixed responses from my social circle. Some people were numb to it, some people were a little sad in some parts. The SH movie where i´ve seen people having the biggest emotional responses was The Dark Knight Rises. I went to see the movie 6 times, with 6 different people, and i remember 3 of them were crying during the film. All girls, but none of them fan of comic books or Batman in particular.

That´s why i can´t get behind anyone telling me MOS is an empty movie and The Avengers is very emotional, like if that was a fact. I can´t get behind that, simply because i know people have different experiences. I´m pretty sure you know tones of people who cried during The Avengers or whatever, but i don´t. I have my experience, you have yours, and you ain´t changing my mind. To me, and also to many other people, The Avengers is an empty movie. The Avengers is so empty that even those who "loved" the movie tell me it is empty. That´s how empty it is.

 

[Skrilla31]

Well, it didn´t make me feel sad in the sad parts, so i can´t really consider it emotional. There´s something wrong with a movie when it approaches tragedy and death and nobody seems to be shaken by it. Yeah, it´s a good movie to smile, and that´s the "problem". I´m smiling while new york is being destroyed.

And out of curiosity what were you feeling when Metropolis was being destroyed?

Because I think most people felt nothing. Or at most... boredom.

 

[Diabo]

And out of curiosity what were you feeling when Metropolis was being destroyed?

Because I think most people felt nothing. Or at most... boredom.

I felt thrilled while he was fighting Zod. I felt his pain when Zod was trying to kill the family. In The Avengers i felt nothing outside of laughter, in a couple of scenes. That´s the difference to me. MOS has beautiful scenes that makes me feel emotionally envolved. TA has none of them.

 

[shauner111]

Even though i can tell it was Snyder behind the fight sequences in MOS, for the most part, the film didn't feel like his visually. But i think that's because Larry Fong wasn't on board. When i think of Snyder, i think of Watchmen, 300 and Sucker Punch which was all Fong. Im happy he's back because Zack's version of Batman totally makes me think of Watchmen.

 

[shauner111]

And out of curiosity what were you feeling when Metropolis was being destroyed?

Because I think most people felt nothing. Or at most... boredom.

I do agree with him about Avengers. But i agree with you too. There was the odd punch where i felt....adrenaline. But for the most part i was numb to it. Not bored. Just didn't feel anything other than focused on who was going to get the upper hand. But in retrospect, i think they could have played with my emotions more when it came to the fact that thousands in Metropolis were dying at the same time. Even after the fighting, that was the time to really make me feel something for the people. And i felt nothing.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Some people just have a unique way of viewing things. Wadayagonnado?

 

[badgrammar]

Because during the worst moments nobody seems to be too shaken by all the tragedy and they even have time to crack jokes. The movie focus too much on good humour wich takes the impact away from what´s happening. The atmosphere is too light all the time. It´s a live action cartoon. In a cartoon, people die, things explode, but you never get the feeling that something really bad and sad is happening. It focus too much on fantasy and completely disregards the human side of things. Again, it´s a live action cartoon.




Yes, i think it works without the costume.

I agree with this. That is why I love man of steel more than advengers. However, I want marvel to keep their light tone and dc to keep its dark tone.

 

[badgrammar]

I felt thrilled while he was fighting Zod. I felt his pain when Zod was trying to kill the family. In The Avengers i felt nothing outside of laughter, in a couple of scenes. That´s the difference to me. MOS has beautiful scenes that makes me feel emotionally envolved. TA has none of them.

The mother and baby whale scene was emotional, IMO.


I actual sympathize with zod a bit, when he
talked to superman expressing his sorrow to Superman before the final fight

 

[slumcat]

300 is his best movie, imo.

Cheers bro. I think so too. By far. Nothing in his filmography comes close to what he achieved in 300.

 

[badgrammar]

Cheers bro. I think so too. By far. Nothing in his filmography comes close to what he achieved in 300.

I hate all the slow mo. I am glad he did not use any in man of steel. I fear BvS might have it

 

[Cooty_Cat]

The mother and baby whale scene was emotional, IMO.


I actual sympathize with zod a bit, when he
talked to superman expressing his sorrow to Superman before the final fight

“Make it dark, make it grim, make it tough, but then, for the love of God, tell a joke.” Joss Whedon

"Give them style, give them more style, but then, for the love of God, give them even more style" Zack Snyder

 

[DA_Champion]

Not distracted. My buddy ate bad sushi last night and let's just say there was more than one bathroom break. LOL. (sorry for the TMI).

Sucker Punch was def ambitious, and an intriguing mix of genres. I'm now understanding the criticisms of his films being shot in grim hues with little to no humorous interaction between characters to give glimpses of light. Not that he needs advice from me, but I think he needs to change up his game. Maybe hurl a curve ball with BvS? Back to SP, sometimes I felt like I'd fallen down the rabbit hole and took a few wrong turns, haha. Boiled down it seemed like a modern interpretation of David vs Goliath with a little Judas Iscariot and Christlike sacrifice thrown in. Snyder appeared to be going for a Matrix-esque depth yet IMO never achieved that.

Didn't love it, didn't hate it. Glad I watched it, though. Next on my Snyder list is 300.

p.s. Honorable mention: Jena Malone never disappoints.

Edit: the dragon battle f/n rocked! btw, I want to watch some scenes again, and I'm thinking I'll do it late tonite with my good friend Mary Jane. This is just the kind of movie to see with her. (wink, wink)

Jena Malone for all the parts.

 

[DA_Champion]

“Make it dark, make it grim, make it tough, but then, for the love of God, tell a joke.” Joss Whedon

"Give them style, give them more style, but then, for the love of God, give them even more style" Zack Snyder

Nice of you to contrast an actual quote from whedon with a made up quote from Snyder.

 

[slumcat]

I hate all the slow mo. I am glad he did not use any in man of steel. I fear BvS might have it

I think 300 is a movie that uses slo mo judiciously. It went with the aesthetic of the movie. It is frankly other movies and shows which have copied 300's style and over-exposed it, it is used just right in 300.

The slo mo during the fight scenes is actually outstanding specially during the infamous King Leonidas freelance scene.

 

[mclay18]

There's this little bubble that I've noticed Snyder fans have created for themselves, this little world where everything he has done has been heightened to an absurd level.

I'm not a huge Snyder fan, but when he's paired up with a good story and screenplay, he tends to make a pretty good if overly flashy film. Not amazing but good. Watchmen was good but too long (even in its original theatrical cut), while Man of Steel suffers from Goyer's uneven writing and questionable editorial decisions. Dawn of the Dead was OK, hated 300 (overblown), and Sucker Punch was visually stunning but not my thing.

I would hope with Terrio's rewrites and a focus on making the best movie he can, that Snyder can improve upon the mistakes in MOS. I would definitely be conscientious of handling Wonder Woman's big-screen debut, as well as putting the right focus on Superman's growth and his progressing relationship with Batman.

 

[LamboMan]

So with all this talk and discussion over MOS, I decided to give it a watch again tonight. Just got done with it and I think I'd like to put down some points about what I saw/felt/thought while the movie was going on. This may be my 5 th or 6th complete viewing so I decided to really look for things that hadn't occurred to me before or remember things which I had noticed before and maybe reinforce them. I'll just state that this is not what I expect everyone to have felt or thought, these are just some conclusions I have come to without any malice directed towards anybody. So here are the points:

Spoiler

1. It does not mince words or want to explain everything directly, except for one or two times like when they explain scientifically technical terms such as 'terraforming' or 'singularity' which it is alright to assume not everyone will know off hand. It gives the audience credit to be smart enough to understand what is going on.

2. The language used in the film is distinctly American with a lot of colloquial terms being used such as phrases, curses, slang etc. that not all English speaking people in the world will easily pick up on, to a very small extent myself included.

3. The scenes with Ma Kent were the most touching for me and really made me feel happy, especially when he returns home and tells her he found his people and she almost breaks down remembering what it was like when he was a baby and how she feared losing him. That point almost brought me to tears, happy manly tears.

4. The scenes with Pa Kent were extremely reminiscent of those from Smallville, and in fact he does support Clark even though he is being overprotective of him. He keeps telling him that the man he grows up to be will change the world and keeps imparting good values, although his fears and love for his son overwhelm him and his decision making, hence the tornado death scene. This Johnathan is almost exactly like the Smallville version, who was as overprotective but supportive when need be and who also died while trying to protect his son's identity.

5. The flashback scenes were interspersed all throughout the movie and were perfectly aligned with whatever emotion/situation adult Clark was going through at that moment in the present time.

6. I've heard people online complain that everybody knows Supes' identity since the police car that brought Lois to him at the Kent farm would have heard her calling him Clark and that the military should know his identity since they helped him bring the pod to the airbase.

The explanations which I have arrived to are as follows: The policeman that brought Lois to Clark was of a good, strong character and would have understood what the stakes were and would have agreed to keep it to himself at that point, not that anybody would be willing to listen considering the world was being attacked by aliens.

The military point can be easily explained that after Lois told Clark how to reopen the Phantom Zone, he would have picked up the ship and brought it to the airbase himself. The scene where we see it with ropes around it and the helicopter is when they were loading it onto the carrier frame to be loaded into the cargo plane bay. Therefore the military did not bring it to the base from the Kent farm themselves.

7. The scene where Supes flies into Zod and goes through the silos, the fields and finally the gas station, I will readily agree are indicative of a reckless Supes, but remember he had just learned his maximum strength and flight just a day or two before. Also, this was his mother who was being threatened not only verbally but physically as well what with Faora picking her up by her neck and throwing her around. Supes could hear his mom's voice anywhere on the planet and so was visibly agitated as soon as he heard what was happening to her. One must give Supes the benefit of the doubt at that point.

8. The destruction and the Supes savings - I know nobody wants to go over this again, but this is important as it is the most divisive point among viewers.
a. In the battle at Smallville, the first hit (and a hard one at that) is by the military planes even before Supes and the other 2 Kryptonians could lay a finger on each other. Then Namek brings down one plane, Supes STOPS Faora from bringing down the other and thus SAVES a pilot from certain death. They crash into that diner where no one is hurt and they duke it out, with Faora causing him to go flying around town and crashing through buildings. Supes throws Faora through Otto's Barber shop and is tackled by both Faora and Namek. He then visibly tries to split them up and throws Namek aside and grabs Faora and tries to FLY AWAY FROM SMALLVILLE with her only to be pulled down again by Namek. At some point he even SAVES that guy who falls from the chopper.

Side note : One can really feel the tension and stakes in this battle as it is about whether Supes can surmount the odds or not against 2 nemeses.

Then Supes throws Namek into a visibly empty area with cargo trains (maybe carrying oil due to the explosions) in order to SAVE Col. Hardy from Faora. Then more missiles from the military. This is the end of the battle.

b. In Metropolis, ALL of the crater (which is clearly just half a mile wide or about a kilometer wide and not spanning across the whole city as some people state) is created before Supes even gets there due to reasons explained in point (9). Then Zod proceeds to bring down an already half destroyed empty building, throws Supes through a building under construction and through a few buildings that do not come down by any means, and take down that Wayne satellite. The only 'destruction' Supes is responsible for is the facade of a building when they clash in midair, the outer windows and a few columns of a like 2 buildings that he smashes Zod's face into and the roof of the train station where he SAVES the family and all of earth.

Let's tally - Supes created destruction = 10 % of movie, Supes saves = 99.99% of world
- Zod and co. created destruction = 90% of movie, Zod and co. kills = 0.01% of world (maximum of 10,000 people in Metropolis and many soldiers)

9. There's another common complaint online that Supes should have gone straight to the ship in Metropolis and not to the one in the Indian ocean but there is a simple and glaringly obvious reason for that as shown in the film. At first when Supes himself explains that the gravity beam would continue to expand continuously I thought that if he needed to stop one of the machines why couldn't he just stop the Metropolis ship and throw the pod onto it at the same time. Then later I realized that nothing could get close to the Zod ship since it had a gravity barrier around it and no missiles or jets could get past it. Thus Supes had to ensure that the gravity beam was off from a point that he could reach and disengage it so as to not destroy their only chance at opening the Phantom Zone. Since even Supes can't be at two places at once, the job had to be divided into two groups for maximum time efficiency and to atleast mitigate the losses, that no one had control over except Zod.

10. Another complaint is that the good natured Superman isn't present and instead we get a dark brooding Supes.....say what?? As soon as the movie begins we see Supes risking his life (since he didn't know the true extent of his powers) to save a bunch of dudes on an oil rig. Then we see him stand up to that schmuck for that girl in the diner where he worked, then he saves Lois with a reassuring smile.

As soon as he hears about Zod's plans he is ready to go against all the hiding that his life had led up to and forego his promise to his father and expose himself to the world and surrender to Zod in order to SAVE HUMANITY. He does this of his own accord with no help from outside. He talks to the priest/pastor and then walks away having made his decision only to be reinforced by that man's words. Let me re-iterate : this Supes is ready to give his life and his freedom so that a world that he has called home for 33 years but who doesn't care about him can survive, and without a second thought. We don't need to be seeing Supes saving cats from trees or saving suicidal people to know that he is truly good hearted. Those scenes will come in later movies when he is established as the SUPERMAN (which he is by the end of this film).

11. The gravity beam scene in which he is thrown down by the liquid metal arms of the World Engine and then gets up and with all his strength and courage after being weakened and then puts his arm up and balls up his fist (and looks like Chris Reeve) before flying into the machine thus saving Perry et al has got to be one of the most intense and strong and uplifting Supes moments I have ever seen in any form of media. That scene alone is better and more emotional than most of what gets put out in CBM's nowadays. It was a true Superman moment, the moment I felt that Clark had finally become Superman!

12. Why metropolis and not somewhere else - Well for this there is only one explanation, since everything bad in Supes world always has to happen in Metropolis (in any form of media) it's a given. No questions asked lol.

13. I still don't like the post end-fight joke scene which I think was due to Goyer's bad writing or ideas. Though the scenes after that and the whole Clark at the Daily Planet with that smile at the end really lights up the whole movie and was the most perfect ending that could have existed. Whenever I watch that scene and hear those rising notes as he smiles I know that this was the best Superman we have seen on screen in this generation.

14. The Lois shown in this movie is not the generic damsel in distress she has been shown as in previous iterations, this damsel is smart and super perseverant and is able to deduce Supes' identity before he can even try to fool her with those amazing magical spectacles. She is a strong character that was only second in screen time after Supes and Zod and was the backbone to his becoming Superman and saving the world. She conveyed Jor-El's message to him and gives him the strength to surrender himself to Zod (as he says, "Thank you for believing in me.") AND helps the military open the phantom zone while being on site. As they say behind every successful man is a strong woman.

15. There was some serious chemistry between then, especially in the scene like the pre surrender desert scene I stated in the last point and every subsequent interaction, so I don't get the complaints. The look on her face when she realizes how human this alien really is was just amazing, even though it's subtle.

16. This movie has the perfect score at the perfect timings throughout the runtime, thereby providing us with an elevated movie experience that few movies have been able to offer. Grand movies become even grander with great and memorable music which is strongly responsible for the success of films such as Star Wars, LOTR, Matrix etc. I personally feel it is Zimmer's best work to date and I can play 'Arcade' all day long.

If you have taken the time to read this then I thank you greatly for your patience. I hope someone replies though or I will feel I put in this hard work for nothing, lol.

Also one last point is that people like Zack Snyder, Peter Jackson, George Lucas etc. make these epic scale movies with a grand scope that really makes it seem like they are worth those hundred's of millions of dollars that they put into these things. That is what I like and what I want to see, and I understand it is not for everyone. Thank you.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

I'm confused, is this a Validation Thread or the Skepticism Thread?