Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[PeterBenParker]

I wouldn't be happy if they basically made Stark Peter's benefactor and "sugar daddy."

because that does take away a key aspect of the Peter's character - the "everyman" who has to deal with life issues ( girls, bills, etc. ) while saving the world.

so I'm not exactly giddy about Stark's inclusion, either. but it just depends on how much involvement Stark has in Peter's life.

Well, given how they had Peter be so poor that he could only have this (though not exactly this because I can't find a good image or whatever of it) as his Spider-Man suit:

Spoiler

with Tony Stark making him this:

Spoiler

Combined with the JoBlo scoop that Stark's giving/making him his webbed arm-pits and such (seemingly to combat easier with Vulture), it's not looking hopeful to me in terms of being "every man".

So pile that on top of Peter having a best friend not named Harry/MJ/Gwen but rather Ned who is more similar to Ganke (done purposely to give Peter what Miles has, I guess) and a ton of other changes, and it's just bleak at the moment.

Still have optimism, don't get me wrong, but pretty bleak.

 

[Fincher]

so, what's the right word to use instead of Hispanic that refers to the racial make up or ancestry of someone. Would it be Latin/Latina?

Latino/Latina refers to people from Latin America, so it's not actually supposed to include Spaniards, and from my understanding people from Brazil (who speak Portuguese instead of Spanish) are counted as Latino. You probably won't run into trouble using it the same as Hispanic, though.

As for the racial term, it depends on which racial makeup we're talking about. Mestizo is the traditional term for a mix of white and American Indian ancestry (like many people in Mexico), but I think it's politically incorrect nowadays. Maybe just say Hispanic people of color when you're talking about them being racebended.

 

[X Knight]

There was nothing wrong with MJ being white. Of course not. There was a problem with every single person of importance being white. And that does need correcting.

Mj is iconic, but less so compared to Spider-Man, Batman, Superman ect. And we need some of those iconic characters to not be white. Not just for poltical correctness either. The movies are more entertaining this way.

the thing is, outside of the "main four" ( Peter, MJ, Gwen, Harry ) Peter's supporting cast in HS is large enough that you can have a diverse cast of characters without changing or replacing the major characters.

SSM did that well. Robbie and Gloria and Kong were black. Liz and her brother Marcus were Hispanic. There was an Asian chick Flash hit on in the drama club. You could make that girl Cindy Moon. And you could make Kong Asian or Ned Leeds, as they are doing here.

and you make those characters more than just background characters. make them actual characters ( like what SSM did with Liz ). and you'd have a diverse cast of characters without even needing to change the main characters.

and I'd argue that MJ IS iconic. She's on the same level as Lois, imo. MJ and Peter. Lois and Clark.

 

[X Knight]

Latino/Latina refers to people from Latin America, so it's not actually supposed to include Spaniards, and from my understanding people from Brazil (who speak Portuguese instead of Spanish) are counted as Latino. You probably won't run into trouble using it the same as Hispanic, though.

As for the racial term, it depends on which racial makeup we're talking about. Mestizo is the traditional term for a mix of white and American Indian ancestry (like many people in Mexico), but I think it's politically incorrect nowadays. Maybe just say Hispanic people of color when you're talking about them being racebended.

thanks.

 

[PeterBenParker]

the thing is, outside of the "main four" ( Peter, MJ, Gwen, Harry ) Peter's supporting cast in HS is large enough that you can have a diverse cast of characters without changing or replacing the major characters.

SSM did that well. Robbie and Gloria and Kong were black. Liz and her brother Marcus were Hispanic. There was an Asian chick Flash hit on in the drama club. You could make that girl Cindy Moon. And you could make Kong Asian or Ned Leeds, as they are doing here.

and you make those characters more than just background characters. make them actual characters ( like what SSM did with Liz ). and you'd have a diverse cast of characters without even needing to change the main characters.

Kong was Asian. Ned Leeds was actually Ned Lee, so he was Asian, too.

 

[sl500jazz]

And the other problem is the one Marvel has seemed to have with MJ for years, and that is because she's a pretty supermodel and a party girl, she's not good enough for Peter. Several writers have even actually stated that Peter marrying a supermodel makes his life "easier" as if she wasn't an actual character, and just a prop to make Peter's life easier, and that's much more problematic than this whole reverse racism argument. The idea that Peter needs a geek girl, someone interested in science, or the like all seem to be based on the idea that because MJ is conventionally attractive, she's a stuck-up *****, she's too shallow, she's not right for Peter and only loves him because he's Spider-Man.

That criticism always seemed weird to me because MJ wasn't conceived as being a supermodel. She was an aspiring actress who took acting classes and held jobs in between gigs just to support herself. If they werent comfortable with that level of success, they shouldnt have made her that famous. It's as if they invented a problem to justify why they shouldnt be together.

 

[Black Narcissus]

 

[Fincher]

As for racebending, my position is that it's their movie and they can make Spider-Man or MJ any race they want, but individual moviegoers can not watch it or not like it. I'm not appalled that they would dare to make MJ bi-racial. Instead, this is the second reboot in ten years, replacing a series that I was enjoying that was cut short, so based on that I'd imagine there are those who've shrugged this version off entirely. I'm going to be pickier because it takes more to generate enthusiasm. "Good enough" isn't good enough; it needs to give me concrete reasons why I should care, and having the hot white redheaded outgoing MJ from the comics was something that interested me (largely because the ASM films were going to introduce her but never got there) and would have been a good start.

They made her bi-racial, the actress is good looking but not even in my opinion one of the best looking available, and it's not like she's some established award winning actress, either, so while she may have done a good job like some are saying there's just no reason for me to want her in the role. Then on top of that she doesn't have the look or the personality to start with, and I don't like the new Spider-Man suit, and I'm not into the whole Tony Stark mentor thing. For me at least, they're just digging themselves deeper into a hole. I get that they think they need to distinguish themselves from the previous series, and who knows, maybe this'll work for them in the grand scheme of things, but it's not the way to get me on board.

 

[KalvinEllis]

I have no problem with changing Mary Jane's race. But what worries me is the rumors that she's a glasses-wearing geek girl or something similar, and we're not getting a proper adaptation of what made MJ so interesting. Honestly, I can't think of any adapation that really did her justice outside of maybe Spectacular Spider-Man. Not even the first movie.

MJ, to me, was interesting because of how she foiled Peter. After the abuse she suffers as a child, she wears a metaphorical mask, becoming a cheery, ditsy party girl to hide her trauma. In contrast to Peter, who wears a literal mask to confront his responsibilities, MJ wore hers to escape from it. And a couple of adaptations have touched upon her upbringing, but none of them went into the parallels between her and Peter, how she coped through her sadness by putting on a happy face and putting herself in the spotlight. What makes her romance with Peter so great is that it isn't just him sharing his secret with her, she does the same, and unmasks herself to him.

And the other problem is the one Marvel has seemed to have with MJ for years, and that is because she's a pretty supermodel and a party girl, she's not good enough for Peter. Several writers have even actually stated that Peter marrying a supermodel makes his life "easier" as if she wasn't an actual character, and just a prop to make Peter's life easier, and that's much more problematic than this whole reverse racism argument. The idea that Peter needs a geek girl, someone interested in science, or the like all seem to be based on the idea that because MJ is conventionally attractive, she's a stuck-up *****, she's too shallow, she's not right for Peter and only loves him because he's Spider-Man.
And really, that's part of the whole reason why MJ became such a breakout character. She wasn't designed to be Peter's love interest. She wasn't a reporter assigned to Spider-Man or his nurse or science partner. She was a girl with her own life and her own interests, and her romance with Peter wasn't destiny or being perfect for each other, it was an awkward accident of two people learning to open up to each other. That's the biggest reason why MJ became so popular. She wasn't a love interest. She was her own character, who fell in love.

And there's no reason the above can't apply to a black MJ, or an Asian MJ, or a hispanic MJ. But Marvel seems to have had a stick up their ass for years about her, and that Peter can't be with a pretty popular girl because that's too easy for him. And that's what worries me about Homecoming, and I'd be worried even if she was a white girl, because MJ isn't a geek girl, that's completely changing her character.

But that's just a rumor. If they're not real, and she can finally do MJ's backstory justice on the big screen, then I'll happily accept Zendaya as Mary Jane. If the rumors are true, then it's just one more time Marvel shoved MJ into a corner.

Amen. They are the best comic couple ever exactly because they weren't destined to be together from the start. They are two vastly different people who found each other. It's extremely disappointing how Marvel basically seems to be ashamed of what MJ's character is like.

 

[auditor]

the thing is, outside of the "main four" ( Peter, MJ, Gwen, Harry ) Peter's supporting cast in HS is large enough that you can have a diverse cast of characters without changing or replacing the major characters.

SSM did that well. Robbie and Gloria and Kong were black. Liz and her brother Marcus were Hispanic. There was an Asian chick Flash hit on in the drama club. You could make that girl Cindy Moon. And you could make Kong Asian or Ned Leeds, as they are doing here.

and you make those characters more than just background characters. make them actual characters ( like what SSM did with Liz ). and you'd have a diverse cast of characters without even needing to change the main characters.

and I'd argue that MJ IS iconic. She's on the same level as Lois, imo. MJ and Peter. Lois and Clark.

I think that for the most part inventing new characters isn't going to work well enough. Some of the non white people have to be important. Inventing new characters who will be iconic is difficult without completely reinventing the existing heroes. They all have these fleshed out side characters and back story.

For example it sounds like Harry osborn is being sidelined while a new best friend gets introduced. Now were losing something.

Bringing in new characters that we try to elevate can take time away from the characters who are supposed to be elevated.

 

[PeterBenParker]

As for racebending, my position is that it's their movie and they can make Spider-Man or MJ any race they want, but individual moviegoers can not watch it or not like it. I'm not appalled that they would dare to make MJ bi-racial. Instead, this is the second reboot in ten years, replacing a series that I was enjoying that was cut short, so based on that I'd imagine there are those who've shrugged this version off entirely. I'm going to be pickier because it takes more to generate enthusiasm. "Good enough" isn't good enough; it needs to give me concrete reasons why I should care, and having the hot white redheaded outgoing MJ from the comics was something that interested me (largely because the ASM films were going to introduce her but never got there) and would have been a good start.

They made her bi-racial, the actress is good looking but not even in my opinion one of the best looking available, and it's not like she's some established award winning actress, either, so while she may have done a good job like some are saying there's just no reason for me to want her in the role. Then on top of that she doesn't have the look or the personality to start with, and I don't like the new Spider-Man suit, and I'm not into the whole Tony Stark mentor thing. For me at least, they're just digging themselves deeper into a hole. I get that they think they need to distinguish themselves from the previous series, and who knows, maybe this'll work for them in the grand scheme of things, but it's not the way to get me on board.

I can agree with a lot of that. Not necessarily sentiments about Zendaya, but TASM being cut short, and all the other stuff they've done differently seemingly for the sake of it.

 

[PeterBenParker]

That's JMS, right? What issue?

 

[KalvinEllis]

That's JMS, right? What issue?

I believe 517 or 518. Mike Deodato's art is amazing.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

I have no problem with changing Mary Jane's race. But what worries me is the rumors that she's a glasses-wearing geek girl or something similar, and we're not getting a proper adaptation of what made MJ so interesting. Honestly, I can't think of any adapation that really did her justice outside of maybe Spectacular Spider-Man. Not even the first movie.

MJ, to me, was interesting because of how she foiled Peter. After the abuse she suffers as a child, she wears a metaphorical mask, becoming a cheery, ditsy party girl to hide her trauma. In contrast to Peter, who wears a literal mask to confront his responsibilities, MJ wore hers to escape from it. And a couple of adaptations have touched upon her upbringing, but none of them went into the parallels between her and Peter, how she coped through her sadness by putting on a happy face and putting herself in the spotlight. What makes her romance with Peter so great is that it isn't just him sharing his secret with her, she does the same, and unmasks herself to him.

And the other problem is the one Marvel has seemed to have with MJ for years, and that is because she's a pretty supermodel and a party girl, she's not good enough for Peter. Several writers have even actually stated that Peter marrying a supermodel makes his life "easier" as if she wasn't an actual character, and just a prop to make Peter's life easier, and that's much more problematic than this whole reverse racism argument. The idea that Peter needs a geek girl, someone interested in science, or the like all seem to be based on the idea that because MJ is conventionally attractive, she's a stuck-up *****, she's too shallow, she's not right for Peter and only loves him because he's Spider-Man.
And really, that's part of the whole reason why MJ became such a breakout character. She wasn't designed to be Peter's love interest. She wasn't a reporter assigned to Spider-Man or his nurse or science partner. She was a girl with her own life and her own interests, and her romance with Peter wasn't destiny or being perfect for each other, it was an awkward accident of two people learning to open up to each other. That's the biggest reason why MJ became so popular. She wasn't a love interest. She was her own character, who fell in love.

And there's no reason the above can't apply to a black MJ, or an Asian MJ, or a hispanic MJ. But Marvel seems to have had a stick up their ass for years about her, and that Peter can't be with a pretty popular girl because that's too easy for him. And that's what worries me about Homecoming, and I'd be worried even if she was a white girl, because MJ isn't a geek girl, that's completely changing her character.

But that's just a rumor. If they're not real, and she can finally do MJ's backstory justice on the big screen, then I'll happily accept Zendaya as Mary Jane. If the rumors are true, then it's just one more time Marvel shoved MJ into a corner.

Love this post.

MJ was a supermodel for such a short period of time and as I recall, that career didn't exactly make Peter's life nor their life easier--it's a lame argument. And what amuses me is how those same writers/people that are against Peter being with a 'supermodel' cause it makes life sooo easy, are totally ok with Peter using his own inventions to make tons of money and run his own corporation cause, you know, it makes his life so easy.

that point about SSM Gwen is true. they did change the character in SSM.

but SSM Gwen wasn't exactly a homely nerd, either. she dressed more conservatively at the beginning, wore glasses, had her hair back, etc. But she was still cute and attractive. Granted it was a cartoon. But she wasn't a plain girl. And she still looked like Gwen overall ( blonde, blue eyes ). She was the type of girl that looked cute in glasses but looks prettier when she lets her hair down and takes the glasses off.

To me, Z's MJ is so drastically different than what classic MJ should be. Not just the race change ( which by itself is a drastic departure ), but also the overall look and personality traits. So for me, it's a more drastic change.

And I'll be honest here. I hold MJ to a higher standard to Gwen. Why? Because when I got into reading Spider-Man back when I was growing up, Peter was married to MJ. I didn't really know about Gwen. So, I associate MJ with Peter, just like I do Lois with Clark. Those are the 2 most iconic comic couples for me.

So, I'm more biased towards MJ, and thus more "protective" of the character.

does that make sense?

It does make sense, and I'll agree that I also hold MJ in a "protective" state. She's earned the title of Peter's greatest love thru years of ups and downs. Gwen imo is only known for her death--she was written into a corner and killed off long before Conway inherited the book. I think that's why the TSSM version of GS is so highly regarded...it upgraded her greatly and is imo the best version of her.

To the emboldened, did you enjoy GotG? And this is not only to you but Marvel changed quite a bit regarding Star Lord, race included, yet I don't remember anyone becoming this aggravated over how he was changed.

now, I will throw this scenario out there. I came across this when reading some person's comments on another site.

so, this is not my idea.

but basically it went like this, I believe. What if in this world, Z's MJ is already a hot teen model. She's on magazine covers, billboards, etc. Maybe Peter and his friends see those pictures of MJ when they are out and about.

But, to fit in at school, MJ intentionally dresses down and makes herself look plain and dyes her hair black/purple or whatever, and goes by the name "Michelle", because she doesn't what people to know that she's really the famous teen model MJ.

of course, by the end of the film, for whatever reason, MJ drops the Michelle act and reveals her true self to Peter with the Jackpot line. And Peter would be like "You're that MJ model!!"

so, nerdy Peter who loses out on Liz Allan and is left dateless for Homecoming, ends up taking the most talked about teen model to the dance instead.

I admit. I would be intrigued by something like that - I could warm up to that. The "Michelle" look and persona is an act she puts on, but the real MJ is more like the fun loving, sassy, bombshell MJ we know and love.

what do you guys think?

I read that idea on another site as well, and I gotta say, that's an excellent idea. MJ's characterization intact and simply requires a make-over but it's done out of choice, not just to beautify her.

 

[PeterBenParker]

I believe 517 or 518. Mike Deodato draws an amazing MJ.

Awesome, can't wait to eventually get there. Just started Book 2 last night. t:

 

[Web-Head]

Now that the supposed "twist" is out, I could almost see Marvel cutting the scene that reveals Zendaya is MJ.

 

[Dark Raven]

The problem about Michelle going through an arc for a whole movie to become MJ is that when she arrives at that point, she's now only reached the point of being about to go through the arc we actually want to see her go through: ie superficial party girl whom we find out has more substance than we and Peter first thought.

It would be like watching a whole movie where a selfless and humble Dr Strange goes through an arc to become the proud, selfish and arrogant surgeon we find himself as at the beginning of the Dr Strange movie only to have to watch him go through another arc to see him become more selfless and humble again and the hero we know him to be.

 

[auditor]

the thing is, outside of the "main four" ( Peter, MJ, Gwen, Harry ) Peter's supporting cast in HS is large enough that you can have a diverse cast of characters without changing or replacing the major characters.

SSM did that well. Robbie and Gloria and Kong were black. Liz and her brother Marcus were Hispanic. There was an Asian chick Flash hit on in the drama club. You could make that girl Cindy Moon. And you could make Kong Asian or Ned Leeds, as they are doing here.

and you make those characters more than just background characters. make them actual characters ( like what SSM did with Liz ). and you'd have a diverse cast of characters without even needing to change the main characters.

and I'd argue that MJ IS iconic. She's on the same level as Lois, imo. MJ and Peter. Lois and Clark.

I think that for the most part inventing new characters isn't going to work well enough. Some of the non white people have to be important. Inventing new characters who will be iconic without completely reinventing the existing heroes. They all have these fleshed out side characters and back story.

For example it sounds like Harry osborn is being sidelined while a new best friend gets introduced. Now were losing something.

Bringing in new characters that we try to elevate can take time away from the characters who are supposed to be elevated.

 

[X Knight]

Kong was Asian. Ned Leeds was actually Ned Lee, so he was Asian, too.

oh? Kong was actually Asian?

well, there's your Asian trio - Kong, Cindy, and Ned.

 

[X Knight]

Love this post.

MJ was a supermodel for such a short period of time and as I recall, that career didn't exactly make Peter's life nor their life easier--it's a lame argument. And what amuses me is how those same writers/people that are against Peter being with a 'supermodel' cause it makes life sooo easy, are totally ok with Peter using his own inventions to make tons of money and run his own corporation cause, you know, it makes his life so easy.



It does make sense, and I'll agree that I also hold MJ in a "protective" state. She's earned the title of Peter's greatest love thru years of ups and downs. Gwen imo is only known for her death--she was written into a corner and killed off long before Conway inherited the book. I think that's why the TSSM version of GS is so highly regarded...it upgraded her greatly and is imo the best version of her.

To the emboldened, did you enjoy GotG? And this is not only to you but Marvel changed quite a bit regarding Star Lord, race included, yet I don't remember anyone becoming this aggravated over how he was changed.




I read that idea on another site as well, and I gotta say, that's an excellent idea. MJ's characterization intact and simply requires a make-over but it's done out of choice, not just to beautify her.

In regards to GOTG, I had no prior familiarity ( and thus no prior attachment or preconceived notions ) to the characters. I only knew about Rocket Racoon cuz he was in the Marvel Vs Capcom 3 game.

so I had no idea they race changed Star Lord or whatever changes they made to the characters.

 

[BatsDC]

I find it amusing how there were people upset that it looked like original characters were being used, but now that they're not identical to their comic counterparts people are complaining that they should have used original characters instead.

 

[X Knight]

The problem about Michelle going through an arc for a whole movie to become MJ is that when she arrives at that point, she's now only reached the point of being about to go through the arc we actually want to see her go through: ie superficial party girl whom we find out has more substance than we and Peter first thought.

It would be like watching a whole movie where a selfless and humble Dr Strange goes through an arc to become the proud, selfish and arrogant surgeon we find himself as at the beginning of the Dr Strange movie only to have to watch him go through another arc to see him become more selfless and humble again and the hero we know him to be.

exactly.

 

[X Knight]

I find it amusing how there were people upset that it looked like original characters were being used, but now that they're not identical to their comic counterparts people are complaining that they should have used original characters instead.

I'd rather they use original characters than make wholesale changes to established characters to the point where it seems they have become original characters.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Amen. They are the best comic couple ever exactly because they weren't destined to be together from the start. They are two vastly different people who found each other. It's extremely disappointing how Marvel basically seems to be ashamed of what MJ's character is like.

That page from Sins Past lol. Great art wasted on terrible story.

 

[auditor]

The problem about Michelle going through an arc for a whole movie to become MJ is that when she arrives at that point, she's now only reached the point of being about to go through the arc we actually want to see her go through: ie superficial party girl whom we find out has more substance than we and Peter first thought.

It would be like watching a whole movie where a selfless and humble Dr Strange goes through an arc to become the proud, selfish and arrogant surgeon we find himself as at the beginning of the Dr Strange movie only to have to watch him go through another arc to see him become more selfless and humble again and the hero we know him to be.

That's a good post. I also like the idea of peter meeting a superficial bubbly type girl and finding out there is more to her later.