Homecoming The Zendaya is possibly someone, maybe thread - Part 2

[KalvinEllis]

Probably because of the reaction of the fanboys (always overreacting and hating before actually seing something).

Well, I personally don't consider a lot of the reactions overreacting. There are perfectly valid reasons for a fan to want the character to be translated more faithfully to live-action, which doesn't make them racists or bigots, or basement dwellers or any of the usual tiresome terms the buzzword central likes to spew in full force whenever something like this happens.

But I digress, this would've been the reaction regardless of how they handled the situation. Still, I would've preferred if they announced she was playing the character from the start, because this would've shown me that they are sticking to their guns right off the bat. "We're going to have a black Mary Jane here, deal with it." Instead, at least to me, this seems like an attempt to lessen the blow, avoid the controversy, or do damage control, which as evidenced by Umberto's reveal, didn't work one bit. I would've not been happy to learn that Mary Jane was changed here, regardless of how it was revealed, but I'd have appreciated that Marvel was upfront about their vision and didn't feel the need to hide it from people. To put this in perspective, I didn't appreciate Abrams doing the same thing with Khan and that didn't work either. These "surprises" are useless, the controversy stemming from deciding to radically change a popular character simply can not be avoided.

 

[X Knight]

Well, I personally don't consider a lot of the reactions overreacting. There are perfectly valid reasons for a fan to want the character to be translated more faithfully to live-action, which doesn't make them racists or bigots, or basement dwellers or any of the usual tiresome terms the buzzword central likes to spew in full force whenever something like this happens.

But I digress, this would've been the reaction regardless of how they handled the situation. Still, I would've preferred if they announced she was playing the character from the start, because this would've shown me that they are sticking to their guns right off the bat. "We're going to have a black Mary Jane here, deal with it." Instead, at least to me, this seems like an attempt to lessen the blow, avoid the controversy, or do damage control, which as evidenced by Umberto's reveal, didn't work one bit. I would've not been happy to learn that Mary Jane was changed here, regardless of how it was revealed, but I'd have appreciated that Marvel was upfront about their vision and didn't feel the need to hide it from people. To put this in perspective, I didn't appreciate Abrams doing the same thing with Khan and that didn't work either. These "surprises" are useless, the controversy stemming from deciding to radically change a popular character simply can not be avoided.

agreed.

 

[Kurenai]

Heh all this over a story who's only source is the same guy that said Asa Butterfield got the Peter Parker role.

You don't seem to read just like everybody else, people are taking what he says more seriously b/c he didn't release this information as an exclusive on his website. He released it on TheWrap, an outlet he works for, an outlet that hired him and can fire him, an outlet that most likely checked with their own sources.

Idk why the plug is not connecting to the socket and lighting that light bulb for some of you guys, this level of denial is a little side eye worthy, and it's even more sad when people have to reiterate how far and big this news has gotten that it should have made Marvel deny the claim if it wasn't true.

It's funny, just yesterday I was reading a comic in which Spider-Woman was drawn to look somewhat... um, non-white, and I started wondering if casting a woman of color to play Jessica would unleash another ****storm or if most people just wouldn't care.

Personally I'd be fine with it, but I feel MS would probably want to hire someone a little more well-known than this Xiao lady. She did say on her twitter that she's excited to be part of her "first Marvel project" though, so who knows.

The way she is drawn sometimes is the exact reason why I had that thought.

As for well known, is anybody in this movie well known other than Tomei, RDJ, and Keaton.

Probably because of the reaction of the fanboys (always overreacting and hating before actually seing something).

Well if the shoe fits ...a couple of people here could afford to call themselves Cinderella.

~~

That reminds me someone made a comment that the reason fanboys are even this angry is b/c MJ was their jerk off material and now that she's black, or is mixed with black, their ****s are soft.

As people on the internet say these days 'that tea was scalding'

 

[PeterBenParker]

 

[X Knight]

heh.

though you know what that cartoon highlights?

the lack of red hair.

you see MJ as a red head in all of the other panels.

then in the final panel, the "new" MJ doesn't have red hair.

that's actually the thing that stands out first, to me at least.

without the red hair, it really does look like a totally different character.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Prepare to have your mind blown.

Daredevil (vol 1) issue #77

 

[ctsketch]

well whatdoyah know

 

[PeterBenParker]

 

[PeterBenParker]

Also, Betty Brant was a redhead once.

(I knew the latter one, though. )

 

[X Knight]

what was the reason for MJ being blonde in that story above?

edit: Reading about it on the net, and it looks like it was a mistake on the inker's part. He also has Peter with black hair.

2nd edit: And that just proves my point. When I look at that comic panel, if there were no words on it, and if no one told me that was supposed to be MJ, I would NEVER guess that's MJ. I would think it's a different girl.

 

[quangtran65]

Well, I personally don't consider a lot of the reactions overreacting. There are perfectly valid reasons for a fan to want the character to be translated more faithfully to live-action, which doesn't make them racists or bigots, or basement dwellers or any of the usual tiresome terms the buzzword central likes to spew in full force whenever something like this happens.

It is certainly an overreacting. The near total faith that fanboys had in Marvel has seemingly completely dissappared simply by casting one black actress. I remember reading articles about how Hunger Game fans would no longer care about the fate of Rue once they realized she was black. At the time I thought the that the jounalist was being hyperbolic, and nope, people have said the exact thing about black MJ.

But I digress, this would've been the reaction regardless of how they handled the situation. Still, I would've preferred if they announced she was playing the character from the start, because this would've shown me that they are sticking to their guns right off the bat. "We're going to have a black Mary Jane here, deal with it." Instead, at least to me, this seems like an attempt to lessen the blow, avoid the controversy, or do damage control, which as evidenced by Umberto's reveal, didn't work one bit. I would've not been happy to learn that Mary Jane was changed here, regardless of how it was revealed, but I'd have appreciated that Marvel was upfront about their vision and didn't feel the need to hide it from people. To put this in perspective, I didn't appreciate Abrams doing the same thing with Khan and that didn't work either. These "surprises" are useless, the controversy stemming from deciding to radically change a popular character simply can not be avoided.

They don't owe us that imformation, especially if nerdy Michelle becoming red-hot MJ is a key part of the story.

And I highly doubt that surprises and twist are useless given that JJ Abrams has made his entire career from it.

the lack of red hair.

you see MJ as a red hea

without the red hair, it really does look like a totally different character.

For one, we don't know whether of not this MJ will be a red head. That last pic was of Zendaya, not MJ. Second, most of the overreaction is not from the hair, but her being black.

 

[KalvinEllis]

It is certainly an overreacting. The near total faith that fanboys had in Marvel has seemingly completely dissappared simply by casting one black actress. I remember reading articles about how Hunger Game fans would no longer care about the fate of Rue once they realized she was black. At the time I thought the that the jounalist was being hyperbolic, and nope, people have said the exact thing about black MJ.

I never said there's no irrational fans out there. Of course there are, it's the emphasis that the media conveniently likes to put on this type of people that bothers me. There have been plenty of valid arguments on this very thread by people who think this change is completely unnecessary. I would go see the movie regardless if supporting characters are changed or not, doesn't mean I shouldn't voice my displeasure if they do something I don't agree with.

They don't owe us that imformation, especially if nerdy Michelle becoming red-hot MJ is a key part of the story.

And I highly doubt that surprises and twist are useless given that JJ Abrams has made his entire career from it.

For one, we don't know whether of not this MJ will be a red head. That last pic was of Zendaya, not MJ. Second, most of the overreaction is not from the hair, but her being black.

I find them useless because nowadays they always leak out, and this situation kind of seems like damage control to me. I'd have no problem if my assumption is totally wrong and this is all done purely for plot reasons as you say, but if she is all frumpy, mousey, buttoned up and for whatever reason not even using her real name, that's just not what Mary Jane is about as it was pointed out many times before here. I suppose Ned might be using a fake name too and in the end starts to work out or does something bad, and is revealed to be Eddie Brock. Would you be okay with a change like that.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

what was the reason for MJ being blonde in that story above?

edit: Reading about it on the net, and it looks like it was a mistake on the inker's part. He also has Peter with black hair.

2nd edit: And that just proves my point. When I look at that comic panel, if there were no words on it, and if no one told me that was supposed to be MJ, I would NEVER guess that's MJ. I would think it's a different girl.

Agreed. I would automatically assume that was Liz or Gwen.

But MJ's red hair is iconic. This is the same problem I have with Valkyrie being changed to Tessa Thompson. From many depictions of Valkyrie not only in the comics but Norse mythology, she has blonde braids, busty, and a fierce warrior. It's iconic imagery. When I think of Valkyrie (even if she wasn't a Marvel character) I would think of the long blonde braids, the full-bosomed curvy body, the armor, etc. This would be the same if someone were to take a prominent character from African, Native American or whatever mythology and completely change this, this, and this about them to the point where there are completely unrecognizable and the only thing that is recognizable is their name.

I know some don't care because these characters are fictitious and just that mythological and I agree with the argument that there needs to be more nationalities and peoples represented on film, TV, etc. but it's not like Spider-Man's universe isn't filled with both already that could interact or play a role in the films. We've never seen Randy Robertson depicted on film yet or Glory Grant. Miles Morales.

Change is constant and change can at times be a good thing, but iconography is another. MJ is defined by her personality, her good looks, and her red hair. If you made her a geeky, obese raven-haired woman, would she still be MJ to any of you?

I think this is something some need to remember before going, "Oh, this is Marvel so it'll work out and I only accept it because it's Marvel doing it." That to me, falls into the same camp as the hardcore D.C. fans who find excuses for every little change or whatever to not only the DC Cinematic Universe but everything else related to D.C.

 

[Venomfan]

For one, we don't know whether of not this MJ will be a red head. That last pic was of Zendaya, not MJ. Second, most of the overreaction is not from the hair, but her being black.

no it isn't. the "overreaction" in this thread is over her appearing to have nothing in common with the character of MJ. There have been tons of manips that show how good she could have looked as the character, but they have chosen to go a different route

 

[The Infernal]

You guys know it's OK to want a white character to be played by a white actress, right? lol

 

[Dark Raven]

You guys know it's OK to want a white character to be played by a white actress, right? lol

No it's not. If you want a self portrait or a painting of a family member and it comes out looking a completely different race, hair colour, build, overall look and personality, who is to say it's not still the subject matter? As long as the painter captures the overall spirit, that's all that matters.

 

[X Knight]

Agreed. I would automatically assume that was Liz or Gwen.

But MJ's red hair is iconic. This is the same problem I have with Valkyrie being changed to Tessa Thompson. From many depictions of Valkyrie not only in the comics but Norse mythology, she has blonde braids, busty, and a fierce warrior. It's iconic imagery. When I think of Valkyrie (even if she wasn't a Marvel character) I would think of the long blonde braids, the full-bosomed curvy body, the armor, etc. This would be the same if someone were to take a prominent character from African, Native American or whatever mythology and completely change this, this, and this about them to the point where there are completely unrecognizable and the only thing that is recognizable is their name.

I know some don't care because these characters are fictitious and just that mythological and I agree with the argument that there needs to be more nationalities and peoples represented on film, TV, etc. but it's not like Spider-Man's universe isn't filled with both already that could interact or play a role in the films. We've never seen Randy Robertson depicted on film yet or Glory Grant. Miles Morales.

Change is constant and change can at times be a good thing, but iconography is another. MJ is defined by her personality, her good looks, and her red hair. If you made her a geeky, obese raven-haired woman, would she still be MJ to any of you?

I think this is something some need to remember before going, "Oh, this is Marvel so it'll work out and I only accept it because it's Marvel doing it." That to me, falls into the same camp as the hardcore D.C. fans who find excuses for every little change or whatever to not only the DC Cinematic Universe but everything else related to D.C.

agreed. well said.

no it isn't. the "overreaction" in this thread is over her appearing to have nothing in common with the character of MJ. There have been tons of manips that show how good she could have looked as the character, but they have chosen to go a different route

yep.

The main problem that I have, and other posters here have, is that MJ's look and personality is NOTHING like how she has traditionally been portrayed.

You guys know it's OK to want a white character to be played by a white actress, right? lol

no. that makes you a racist troll who doesn't like progress or changing with the times.

No it's not. If you want a self portrait or a painting of a family member and it comes out looking a completely different race, hair colour, build, overall look and personality, who is to say it's not still the subject matter? As long as the painter captures the overall spirit, that's all that matters.

yeah. that sounds about right.

 

[The Infernal]

No it's not. If you want a self portrait or a painting of a family member and it comes out looking a completely different race, hair colour, build, overall look and personality, who is to say it's not still the subject matter? As long as the painter captures the overall spirit, that's all that matters.

I have to stop giving that guy money then. I'm sick of explaining my portraits to relatives.

 

[X Knight]

I have to stop giving that guy money then. I'm sick of explaining my portraits to relatives.

lol.

that reminds me of those "portrait kiosks" you often see at malls or fairs.

whether the artist is making portraits of real people or celebrities or fictional characters, if the portraits don't resemble the subject matter, I don't think the artist would be that successful.......lol.

 

[Dark Raven]

lol.

that reminds me of those "portrait kiosks" you often see at malls or fairs.

whether the artist is making portraits of real people or celebrities or fictional characters, if the portraits don't resemble the subject matter, I don't think the artist would be that successful.......lol.

For Donald Trump's presidential campaign, if he orders hundreds of posters of himself and they come back looking like Hilary Clinton, he should not complain. Nothing says that he can't look like a woman, or like his rival, or have a different ideology. After all, a different ideology might represent the start of a character arc to become the person we all know. It's about capturing the spirit of Trump. The posters will still be of a presidential candidate with vaguely the same hair colour, and that's all that matters.

 

[PeterBenParker]

Why is nobody upset that Matt Murdock doesn't have his signature red hair on the Netflix series?

 

[X Knight]

Why is nobody upset that Matt Murdock doesn't have his signature red hair on the Netflix series?

I'm sure there are people upset.

in fact, during this whole MJ conversation, I've seen on other sites complaints from red heads (gingers) that their characters are getting shortchanged.

look at Jimmy Olsen on Supergirl.

and back to Netflix Matt Murdock.

aside from the lack of red hair, does that Matt Murdock otherwise look and behave like how Matt is supposed to from the comics?

 

[harryoscop]

Why is nobody upset that Matt Murdock doesn't have his signature red hair on the Netflix series?

It looked like Autum red to me.

 

[X Knight]

For Donald Trump's presidential campaign, if he orders hundreds of posters of himself and they come back looking like Hilary Clinton, he should not complain. Nothing says that he can't look like a woman, or like his rival, or have a different ideology. After all, a different ideology might represent the start of a character arc to become the person we all know. It's about capturing the spirit of Trump. The posters will still be of a presidential candidate with vaguely the same hair colour, and that's all that matters.

yeah. I'm sure Trump will be that understandable.

 

[X Knight]

and here's this article about Netflix Matt not being a redhead.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2014/08/04/outrage-matt-murdock-not-a-ginger-in-netflixs-daredevil

don't know if it's being serious or a bit tongue in cheek.

but I did note this part:

"Will anybody care that Matt Murdock isn't a redhead? It's a weird question, but this is nerdtown - people get really tweaked out about physical discrepencies between actors and characters. You couldn't have a Mary Jane Watson who wasn't a redhead, despite her hair color having no bearing on her character."

and yet. that's exactly what we seem to be getting in Homecoming, amongst other changes.

unlike Matt, who has a costumed alter ego, MJ does not have such an alter ego. Her civilian look is her look. and her red hair is the most iconic, visually distinct part of that look.

take that away, and you've already taken away a unique, distinguishable feature. Just look at that comic panel above where she's blonde. There, she looks like another blonde female - she looks like Gwen more than MJ.

change her look further by making her plain and frumpy looking, and you've altered the character even more.

and if that's not enough, you then change her personality to be almost the complete opposite.

oh, and if even that's not enough, you change her name to something else, or give her some contrived backstory where she uses a different name for most of the film.

at that point, she's essentially a whole different character. what's the point of even using the character if she looks and acts nothing like how the character should?