Homecoming The Zendaya is possibly someone, maybe thread - Part 2

[The Infernal]

I never got the whole 'why don't you care about this character being changed' argument. It's as if some people think if you have a view about one character, you must have and express it for every character always as though you're incapable of feeling differently about other characters.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

what was the reason for MJ being blonde in that story above?

edit: Reading about it on the net, and it looks like it was a mistake on the inker's part. He also has Peter with black hair.

2nd edit: And that just proves my point. When I look at that comic panel, if there were no words on it, and if no one told me that was supposed to be MJ, I would NEVER guess that's MJ. I would think it's a different girl.

bingo

 

[Amadeus Arkham]

It's an error! CGC it and put it on eBay!

 

[KalvinEllis]

I never got the whole 'why don't you care about this character being changed' argument. It's as if some people think if you have a view about one character, you must have and express it for every character always as though you're incapable of feeling differently about other characters.

That's a good point. If I don't mind that Barry doesn't have blonde hair on the CW Flash show, doesn't mean I should be cool with whatever is changed about another character that I might feel more attached to, compared to The Flash.

Also, what you said earlier that it's ok to want a white character to be played a white actor, I think it depends on the way fans express themselves about it. If they are all nerd raging and insulting the actor and the filmmakers, then it comes off as embarrassing, ignorant and completely out of touch. But if they express themselves in a proper and more logical manner, then even if people on the opposite side still disagree with them, they can probably at least gain some level of understanding towards where they're coming from.

I'd give a random example with Green Lantern Kyle Rayner. When Kyle was first introduced in '94, he was originally depicted as Caucasian and there was pretty much no reason to believe otherwise. He was drawn as a young white male with black hair. Then some years down the line he was given a Mexican-American father, so nowadays Kyle is naturally considered to be Latino and he is therefore drawn to look more that way. Yet, the character is still at times drawn to look white as well, in his appearances in the DCAU he also looked white and if you don't know this detail about his background, you may very well not guess that he is supposed to be Latino right away. If Hollywood for some reason decides to cast a white actor for him, I personally wouldn't see it as whitewashing because Kyle was not originally created as a minority character. The same way not many people probably know that Hal Jordan is Jewish, because that's not something that's been accentuated on too often and hasn't played a big part in his history. Same thing, I would be totally ok if Hal isn't played by a Jewish actor in the DCEU.

People may naturally disagree about all of this and insist that Kyle absolutely must be Latino in a live-action movie and that this time Hal needs to be played by a Jewish actor, but they'd at least know where I'm coming from and I won't be just spewing hatred towards a casting choice solely based on their ethnicity. To be honest, I think both sides of the equation need to show more understanding towards one another whenever a casting choice like this happens.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

If someone couldn't tell that was MJ just from Petey and tiger, I don't know what to say.

Watts on the diverse casting:

“Peter Parker goes to high school in Queens, and Queens is one of—if not the—most diverse places in the world. So I just wanted it to reflect what that actually looks like.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-from-the-onion-to-spider-man-homecoming.html

Casting a biracial actress to play the character who first appeared a year before the Loving v. Virginia decision brings home the point that this is a modern adaptation.

 

[PeterBenParker]

I never got the whole 'why don't you care about this character being changed' argument. It's as if some people think if you have a view about one character, you must have and express it for every character always as though you're incapable of feeling differently about other characters.

As someone who just said:

In regards to people disliking or criticizing Shocker's design, do you not think that mentality applies to every form of fiction then? Or is it suddenly subjective when it suits your personal feelings?

 

[The Infernal]

In regards to people disliking or criticizing Shocker's design, do you not think that mentality applies to every form of fiction then? Or is it suddenly subjective when it suits your personal feelings?

You may have missed the point, but thanks for trying.

 

[X Knight]

If someone couldn't tell that was MJ just from Petey and tiger, I don't know what to say.

Watts on the diverse casting:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-from-the-onion-to-spider-man-homecoming.html

Casting a biracial actress to play the character who first appeared a year before the Loving v. Virginia decision brings home the point that this is a modern adaptation.

in re to the 1st part. if you were talking about that Daredevil comic panel that had MJ as a blonde, I'm saying if there were no words, no dialogue boxes in that panel, no "Petey" or "Tiger," there would be no clues or indication that blonde lady is supposed to be MJ.

as for the 2nd part, I'm all for a diverse cast. And as I've said many times before, Peter already has a diverse cast of HS supporting characters without needing to change any of the main characters. Just look at the SSM cartoon as an example.

want more diversity? bring existing minority characters like Randy and Gloria to the forefront. Add Cindy and/or Kong. Add Miles if you want. Even change lower tier characters like Liz or Sally or even Flash.

and if you do racechange characters, at least keep the rest of the character consistent.

want a bi-racial MJ? fine. but still give her red hair and make her the popular, playful, alpha female type. y'know.......who MJ is supposed to be.

want to make Flash Hispanic? fine. but still make him the bully jock who's more physically intimidating than Peter.

want to put Betty in Peter's HS? fine. but don't make her look and act more like Sally Avril.

want to put Ned in Peter's HS? fine. but don't make him look and act more like Ganke.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

in re to the 1st part. If you were talking about that daredevil comic panel that had mj as a blonde, i'm saying if there were no words, no dialogue boxes in that panel, no "petey" or "tiger," there would be no clues or indication that blonde lady is supposed to be mj.

As for the 2nd part, i'm all for a diverse cast. And as i've said many times before, peter already has a diverse cast of hs supporting characters without needing to change any of the main characters. Just look at the ssm cartoon as an example.

Want more diversity? Bring existing minority characters like randy and gloria to the forefront. Add cindy and/or kong. Add miles if you want. Even change lower tier characters like liz or sally or even flash.

And if you do racechange characters, at least keep the rest of the character consistent.

Want a bi-racial mj? Fine. But still give her red hair and make her the popular, playful, alpha female type. Y'know.......who mj is supposed to be.

Want to make flash hispanic? Fine. But still make him the bully jock who's more physically intimidating than peter.

Want to put betty in peter's hs? Fine. But don't make her look and act more like sally avril.

Want to put ned in peter's hs? Fine. But don't make him look and act more like ganke.

^ this! All of this!

 

[NHawk19]

If someone couldn't tell that was MJ just from Petey and tiger, I don't know what to say.

Watts on the diverse casting:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-from-the-onion-to-spider-man-homecoming.html

Casting a biracial actress to play the character who first appeared a year before the Loving v. Virginia decision brings home the point that this is a modern adaptation.

Only if that actress portrays a person that represents the iconic look and essence of the original character. Based on what we've seen to date not only does she not physically resemble the character (i.e. no red hair and green eyes) she contains little of the personality traits that make MJ MJ.

It's like Harry Potter not having his scar, Elphaba not being green, or Elves in TLOTR not having pointed ears. There are certain traits that define certain characters.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

only if that actress portrays a person that represents the iconic look and essence of the original character. Based on what we've seen to date not only does she not physically resemble the character (i.e. No red hair and green eyes) she contains little of the personality traits that make mj mj.

It's like harry potter not having his scar, elphaba not being green, or elves in tlotr not having pointed ears. There are certain traits that define certain characters.

^ this too!

 

[X Knight]

Only if that actress portrays a person that represents the iconic look and essence of the original character. Based on what we've seen to date not only does she not physically resemble the character (i.e. no red hair and green eyes) she contains little of the personality traits that make MJ MJ.

It's like Harry Potter not having his scar, Elphaba not being green, or Elves in TLOTR not having pointed ears. There are certain traits that define certain characters.

bingo.

and it's not just physical traits that define a character, but personality and behavior traits.

it would be like if they remade Hobbit or TLOTR, and made the Elves crude and crass like the Dwarves and the Dwarves sophisticated and refined like the Elves.

 

[X Knight]

so, I just read the preview for the Supergirl #1 book.

for those of you not following, Rebirth Supergirl will adopt a civilian disguise as HS student Kara Danvers. Part of that disguise involves wearing a brunette wig and glasses.

Since that new look is part of her disguise, I accept that. I would not accept it, however, if they tried to make Supergirl an actual brunette. Technically, there's nothing to say Kara can't be a brunette or a readhead or a raven haired beauty ( Clark, after all, has dark hair ). except that she was created as a blonde and has been portrayed as such for as long as I've been familiar with her.

To me, Kara is a blonde. period. The actual shade of blonde can vary, but she's a blonde.

To me, MJ is a redhead. period.

That's why, I'd accept her drastically different look in Homecoming if it's part of a "Michelle" disguise that popular teen model/star MJ adopts to fit in at school.

but if it's not a disguise and her actual look - that's when I have a problem with it.

 

[Protar]

Only if that actress portrays a person that represents the iconic look and essence of the original character. Based on what we've seen to date not only does she not physically resemble the character (i.e. no red hair and green eyes) she contains little of the personality traits that make MJ MJ.

It's like Harry Potter not having his scar, Elphaba not being green, or Elves in TLOTR not having pointed ears. There are certain traits that define certain characters.

Well Harry's scar is incredibly plot relevant and actually IIRC Elves are never mentioned as having pointed ears in the lotr books. The personality is far more important than the looks so it's disappointing that she's apparently going to be shy and nerdy but that's hardly Zendaya's fault.

 

[NHawk19]

Well Harry's scar is incredibly plot relevant and actually IIRC Elves are never mentioned as having pointed ears in the lotr books. The personality is far more important than the looks so it's disappointing that she's apparently going to be shy and nerdy but that's hardly Zendaya's fault.

With the scar you're making my point for me. It's a not only a physical characteristic by works to help define the character. The same applies to certain aspects of who MJ is i.e. not nerdy. As for the elves this proves my point even more because the imagery was carried across to the readers simply by mentioning that they were elves and enough other sources have provided examples of what elves are, and how they look and act.

I don't think any of us have placed blame on her. In fact none of this is her fault. Make the casting announcement that RuPaul or Kevin James is playing MJ and the same discussions would take place though with different specifics.

All we've questioned is the creative direction resulting in decisions to depart from the over 50 years of source material and imagery associated with the character.

 

[harryoscop]

 

[X Knight]

^ that's nice, Harry.

the left gif perfectly evokes the spirit and look of MJ. she doesn't have to be all that glammed up for HS ( of course not ). but she could have that overall look.

but we're not getting that Zendaya/MJ..........

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

No red hair.

Pretty girl but we aren't getting glamorized MJ at the moment or red hair from the set photos. So, right now, all we have is Zendaya the Model and Zendaya as Michelle the Science Nerd/Brain/"She's All That" Ugly Duckling.

 

[The Infernal]

That's a good point. If I don't mind that Barry doesn't have blonde hair on the CW Flash show, doesn't mean I should be cool with whatever is changed about another character that I might feel more attached to, compared to The Flash.

Also, what you said earlier that it's ok to want a white character to be played a white actor, I think it depends on the way fans express themselves about it. If they are all nerd raging and insulting the actor and the filmmakers, then it comes off as embarrassing, ignorant and completely out of touch. But if they express themselves in a proper and more logical manner, then even if people on the opposite side still disagree with them, they can probably at least gain some level of understanding towards where they're coming from.

I'd give a random example with Green Lantern Kyle Rayner. When Kyle was first introduced in '94, he was originally depicted as Caucasian and there was pretty much no reason to believe otherwise. He was drawn as a young white male with black hair. Then some years down the line he was given a Mexican-American father, so nowadays Kyle is naturally considered to be Latino and he is therefore drawn to look more that way. Yet, the character is still at times drawn to look white as well, in his appearances in the DCAU he also looked white and if you don't know this detail about his background, you may very well not guess that he is supposed to be Latino right away. If Hollywood for some reason decides to cast a white actor for him, I personally wouldn't see it as whitewashing because Kyle was not originally created as a minority character. The same way not many people probably know that Hal Jordan is Jewish, because that's not something that's been accentuated on too often and hasn't played a big part in his history. Same thing, I would be totally ok if Hal isn't played by a Jewish actor in the DCEU.

People may naturally disagree about all of this and insist that Kyle absolutely must be Latino in a live-action movie and that this time Hal needs to be played by a Jewish actor, but they'd at least know where I'm coming from and I won't be just spewing hatred towards a casting choice solely based on their ethnicity. To be honest, I think both sides of the equation need to show more understanding towards one another whenever a casting choice like this happens.

Yeah. Good points man. I agree there definitely shouldn't be attacks made on the cast or crew etc, but I can't say I'm surprised when I see it since I've witnessed it since the original trilogy on these boards. Though I don't see them as the majority and there is also the problem with some people always wanting to read into someone's post an intention that's just not there.

 

[KalvinEllis]

Yeah. Good points man. I agree there definitely shouldn't be attacks made on the cast or crew etc, but I can't say I'm surprised when I see it since I've witnessed it since the original trilogy on these boards. Though I don't see them as the majority and there is also the problem with some people always wanting to read into someone's post an intention that's just not there.

Well said.

 

[Protar]

With the scar you're making my point for me. It's a not only a physical characteristic by works to help define the character. The same applies to certain aspects of who MJ is i.e. not nerdy. As for the elves this proves my point even more because the imagery was carried across to the readers simply by mentioning that they were elves and enough other sources have provided examples of what elves are, and how they look and act.

I don't think any of us have placed blame on her. In fact none of this is her fault. Make the casting announcement that RuPaul or Kevin James is playing MJ and the same discussions would take place though with different specifics.

All we've questioned is the creative direction resulting in decisions to depart from the over 50 years of source material and imagery associated with the character.

Mary Jane's read hair is not Harry's Scar. Harry's scar is a magical alarm, it factors into the big prophecy. MJ's hair is an iconic part of her character but it's not at all comparable. Have we seen pictures of Zendaya on set? Maybe they dye her hair.

 

[harryoscop]

Z on set & in character:

So ya, you can see where the concern is coming from. Wish they let Zendaya look like her normal self instead of dressing her down & making her frumpy to try and squeeze MJ into the Hughes character type.

 

[Dark Raven]

Getting Zendaya as MJ but then going out of their way to dress her down, make her look frumpy, avoid giving her the red hair and not calling her Mary Jane is like that episode of Sex and the City where Carrie wants to have sex with Mr Big and is attempting to seduce, but he can't see what's in front of him and is more interested to read her book she's written about him and point out different objections on different pages instead of living in the moment.

 

[Web-Head]

Mary Jane's read hair is not Harry's Scar. Harry's scar is a magical alarm, it factors into the big prophecy. MJ's hair is an iconic part of her character but it's not at all comparable. Have we seen pictures of Zendaya on set? Maybe they dye her hair.

There have been set pics and Atlanta Filming (the one who has taken most, if not all, of the set photos) has said there's been no red hair dye or wig.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

If this is how we normally see Zendaya, and she was cast as the Mary Jane of the series, it makes no sense to then turn around and "frump" her down. Something tells me she will eventually become the Zendaya that more people are use to.

Of course, not knowing anything about her acting ability, if she looks like the above gif eventually in the movie, then she would pass as Mary Jane. Just color that hair red and you'd be set.