Homecoming The Zendaya is possibly someone, maybe thread - Part 3

[fionabinona]

for me personally, I would rather they keep the characters separate.

if they want original character Michelle to be the main LI in this franchise, then fine. I would be severely disappointed because Peter does have iconic LIs like MJ and Gwen, and I want MJ this time.

However, if they just kept her as Michelle, then at least they wouldn't be "hijacking" another character like MJ and then I could judge Michelle on her own merits as a character.

now, though, Michelle is weighed down by the "baggage" of being tied to MJ when it was totally unneeded.

also, I see you joined the Hype this month. so, welcome to the Hype!!

I see your point and agree with you mostly. i know i am trying to keep an open mind about it. I know your right that the character will now be be bogged down with MJ baggage that was probably unnecessary.

Thank you for the welcome, i miss the imdb boards so its nice find something else to read thoughts and opinions on movies

 

[AlluAllu]

Fionabinona shares my opinion pretty much exactly. I like that the character's name isn't Mary Jane, because that doesn't seem to be who she is. I personally wouldn't have given her those initials, but at least they hint that she is going to play the role of the classic MJ. And even as a Mary Jane fan, I am okay with that, because I really like what I've seen of Michelle so far.

But one thing is really annoying for sure: Now we can't be sure which character "MJ" refers to. It's laborous to type "Mary Jane" and "Michelle"!

 

[Shikamaru]

I actually saw it coming too. I guess I didn't think about it much since I was so fixated on Peter and Tony (and the tone).

Anyways, I think there's several arguments to be made as to why the anger is justified.

First, the core appeal behind film adaptations has always been the idea of watching your favorite characters come to life. To quote the marketing for the first Donner film: "You will believe a man can fly."

Second, by virtue of this being in the MCU, there's greater expectation for Marvel to stay true to 616 than there was with Sony.

Third, relating to the second point, there's no "wait for the next take" when you're in the MCU. Unless Marvel's got plans for a Crisis (which they haven't even done in the comics), this is pretty much the MJ we're stuck with.

Fourth, there's the economics. There's demand for 616 MJ to be with Peter, but Marvel Comics won't supply it. So naturally if Feige won't supply it either, it will increase the frustration among the fanbase. It's essentially a missed opportunity.

Not everyone has to feel the same, but to say the dissapointment isn't understandable is to be ignorant. It's absolutely understandable (things like threats to others and harryoscop-esque reactions notwithstanding).

 

[C Prometheus]

I actually saw it coming too. I guess I didn't think about it much since I was so fixated on Peter and Tony (and the tone).

Anyways, I think there's several arguments to be made as to why the anger is justified.

First, the core appeal behind film adaptations has always been the idea of watching your favorite characters come to life. To quote the marketing for the first Donner film: "You will believe a man can fly."

Second, by virtue of this being in the MCU, there's greater expectation for Marvel to stay true to 616 than there was with Sony.

Third, relating to the second point, there's no "wait for the next take" when you're in the MCU. Unless Marvel's got plans for a Crisis (which they haven't even done in the comics), this is pretty much the MJ we're stuck with.

Fourth, there's the economics. There's demand for 616 MJ to be with Peter, but Marvel Comics won't supply it. So naturally if Feige won't supply it either, it will increase the frustration among the fanbase. It's essentially a missed opportunity.

Not everyone has to feel the same, but to say the dissapointment isn't understandable is to be ignorant. It's absolutely understandable (things like threats to others and harryoscop-esque reactions notwithstanding).

That's the core problem. Pretty sure they'd said from early on that they were looking more at the Ultimate Spider-Man run of comics for inspiration than they were the 616 incarnation. I know Tom talked about it quite a bit when he got the job and I remember Feige saying the same thing throughout the summer of 2015 too.

And while yes, there are noticeable differences between "Michelle" and Ultimate Mary Jane, there's still more of a resemblance there than there is between her and her 616 counterpart.

But aside from that, yeah, the name issue is a whole mess and makes things way more complicated than they ever needed to be.

 

[Shikamaru]

That's the core problem. Pretty sure they'd said from early on that they were looking more at the Ultimate Spider-Man run of comics for inspiration than they were the 616 incarnation. I know Tom talked about it quite a bit when he got the job and I remember Feige saying the same thing throughout the summer of 2015 too.

And while yes, there are noticeable differences between "Michelle" and Ultimate Mary Jane, there's still more of a resemblance there than there is between her and her 616 counterpart.

But aside from that, yeah, the name issue is a whole mess and makes things way more complicated than they ever needed to be.

MJ being "brainy" doesn't necessarily mean she was based off Ultimate MJ. This MJ is still radically different from both versions.

Honestly, Ultimate MJ isn't even that "brainy". She's not like Michelle or the recent versions of Gwens. She was more of a hardworking straight A student. I feel people call her that because she was "brainy" relative 616 MJ (even then, 616 MJ is more "brainy" in other ways).

Lastly, saying you based your work more on Ultimate Spider-Man is a meaningless statement in 2017. Literally every new take on Spidey for the past 10 years made that claim and it was never true (except maybe for the Ultimate cartoon). By this point most of us figured that means "it's modern" and "it's got high school Spidey". That's really what they mean by "it's more like Ultimate".

 

[X Knight]

I see your point and agree with you mostly. i know i am trying to keep an open mind about it. I know your right that the character will now be be bogged down with MJ baggage that was probably unnecessary.

Thank you for the welcome, i miss the imdb boards so its nice find something else to read thoughts and opinions on movies

glad to have you on board the Hype, fiona!

 

[C Prometheus]

MJ being "brainy" doesn't necessarily mean she was based off Ultimate MJ. This MJ is still radically different from both versions.

Honestly, Ultimate MJ isn't even that "brainy". She's not like Michelle or the recent versions of Gwens. She was more of a hardworking straight A student. I feel people call her that because she was "brainy" relative 616 MJ (even then, 616 MJ is more "brainy" in other ways).

Lastly, saying you based your work more on Ultimate Spider-Man is a meaningless statement in 2017. Literally every new take on Spidey for the past 10 years made that claim and it was never true (except maybe for the Ultimate cartoon). By this point most of us figured that means "it's modern" and "it's got high school Spidey").

I'm not just referring to the fact that she's brainy though. She's more "normal" looking in both incarnations and isn't the outright supermodel that the 616 Mary Jane is. And moreover MJ is quite witty and confident- which is apparently also the case for Michelle.

From what little we've seen of Michelle so far, I can fully believe that this incarnation of the character could eventually steal a truck and ram it into the Green Goblin or some other villain as an attempt to help save Peter. I can buy that there's something else going on with Michelle too that we don't know about yet and that she's deeper than the others around her realize, even if it's in a different way than we're used to seeing from MJ.

The biggest differences that I can see at this point, aside from the obvious name change and visual change, are that Michelle isn't Peter's childhood friend and that she's far more anti-social. Notable differences, sure, but I can see the groundwork in this take of her character potentially developing into a somewhat more familiar MJ in future films.

Whether they actually do that or not, I don't know. But I can see ways of them developing this take of the character from "Michelle" to "Mary Jane." Not the exact path that X Knight was suggesting earlier, but a development nonetheless.

 

[X Knight]

I actually saw it coming too. I guess I didn't think about it much since I was so fixated on Peter and Tony (and the tone).

Anyways, I think there's several arguments to be made as to why the anger is justified.

First, the core appeal behind film adaptations has always been the idea of watching your favorite characters come to life. To quote the marketing for the first Donner film: "You will believe a man can fly."

Second, by virtue of this being in the MCU, there's greater expectation for Marvel to stay true to 616 than there was with Sony.

Third, relating to the second point, there's no "wait for the next take" when you're in the MCU. Unless Marvel's got plans for a Crisis (which they haven't even done in the comics), this is pretty much the MJ we're stuck with.

Fourth, there's the economics. There's demand for 616 MJ to be with Peter, but Marvel Comics won't supply it. So naturally if Feige won't supply it either, it will increase the frustration among the fanbase. It's essentially a missed opportunity.

Not everyone has to feel the same, but to say the dissapointment isn't understandable is to be ignorant. It's absolutely understandable (things like threats to others and harryoscop-esque reactions notwithstanding).

very well said.

I agree with you on all your points, especially about the part of wanting to see the characters "come to life" on the screen.

 

[PeterBenParker]

They also looked at Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane as inspiration, which makes this whole situation more frustrating.

 

[C Prometheus]

They also looked at Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane as inspiration, which makes this whole situation more frustrating.

Yeah, the name is definitely the most frustrating thing about it all for me.

Like I said, I can see them developing Michelle into a more familiar Mary Jane/MJ in future films, but it's still a question mark at this point as to whether or not they actually will.

Especially with the whole name change thing. That just feels so utterly pointless and potentially cowardly.

 

[Shikamaru]

I'm not just referring to the fact that she's brainy though. She's more "normal" looking in both incarnations and isn't the outright supermodel that the 616 Mary Jane is. And moreover MJ is quite witty and confident- which is apparently also the case for Michelle.

From what little we've seen of Michelle so far, I can fully believe that this incarnation of the character could eventually steal a truck and ram it into the Green Goblin or some other villain as an attempt to help save Peter. I can buy that there's something else going on with Michelle too that we don't know about yet and that she's deeper than the others around her realize, even if it's in a different way than we're used to seeing from MJ.

The biggest differences that I can see at this point, aside from the obvious name change and visual change, are that Michelle isn't Peter's childhood friend and that she's far more anti-social. Notable differences, sure, but I can see the groundwork in this take of her character potentially developing into a somewhat more familiar MJ in future films.

Whether they actually do that or not, I don't know. But I can see ways of them developing this take of the character from "Michelle" to "Mary Jane." Not the exact path that X Knight was suggesting earlier, but a development nonetheless.

Not necessarily. Bendis still played up MJ in the first two arcs as being out of Peter's league. She wad still beautiful and hit on by jocks like Flash.

If anything, Webb's Gwen was the closest to Ultimate MJ in that regard (not a supermodel, but still a school beauty).

 

[C Prometheus]

Not necessarily. Bendis still played up MJ in the first two arcs as being out of Peter's league. She wad still beautiful and hit on by jocks like Flash.

If anything, Webb's Gwen was the closest to Ultimate MJ in that regard (not a supermodel, but still a school beauty).

Eh, they had her being attractive and hit on by other guys at school like Flash, but I never once felt like Ultimate MJ was "out of Peter's league." Especially seeing as how Peter becomes relatively popular, or at least far less the kid that always gets picked on, almost immediately after his Spider-powers kick in and he joins the Basketball team for awhile.

To me, it felt way more like there was an attraction there between the two of them that neither one quite realized was there until a couple of volumes into the run.

But sure, I can agree that Webb's Gwen was also more akin to Ultimate MJ than Michelle. She certainly didn't feel much like the 616 Gwen as I remembered her, which wasn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[X Knight]

They also looked at Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane as inspiration, which makes this whole situation more frustrating.

yeah.........that makes no sense......lol.

 

[Shikamaru]

Eh, they had her being attractive and hit on by other guys at school like Flash, but I never once felt like Ultimate MJ was "out of Peter's league." To me, it felt way more like there was an attraction there between the two of them that neither one quite realized was there until a couple of volumes into the run.

But sure, I can agree that Webb's Gwen was also more akin to Ultimate MJ than Michelle. She certainly didn't feel much like the 616 Gwen as I remembered her, which wasn't necessarily a bad thing.

I disagree. The first shot of Peter had him at the mall watching MJ being sociable with her friends while Flash and Kong were ripping on him. It wasn't until Uncle Ben convinced him to talk to her before their friendship started.

In the next few issues, several of MJ's friends tell her she should stop hanging out with him becauss it's damaging to her social reputation. She's then hit on by Flash (and I think other guys as well) before they finally get together.

I took that as Bendis saying she was out of his league. Maybe not by as much (certainly not like in 616), but it was an element in their relationship at the start.

 

[fionabinona]

Fionabinona shares my opinion pretty much exactly. I like that the character's name isn't Mary Jane, because that doesn't seem to be who she is. I personally wouldn't have given her those initials, but at least they hint that she is going to play the role of the classic MJ. And even as a Mary Jane fan, I am okay with that, because I really like what I've seen of Michelle so far.

But one thing is really annoying for sure: Now we can't be sure which character "MJ" refers to. It's laborous to type "Mary Jane" and "Michelle"!

Maybe its a amalgatmation if thats the right word fo them both the classic mary jane and what we have seen of michelle so far. That will be the Mj going forward in future movies

 

[C Prometheus]

I disagree. The first shot of Peter had him at the mall watching MJ being sociable with her friends while Flash and Kong were ripping on him. It wasn't until Uncle Ben convinced him to talk to her before their friendship started.

In the next few issues, several of MJ's friends tell her she should stop hanging out with him becauss it's damaging to her social reputation. She's then hit on by Flash (and I think other guys as well) before they finally get together.

I took that as Bendis saying she was out of his league. Maybe not by as much (certainly not like in 616), but it was an element in their relationship at the start.

Hm. Looks like I need to reread my copy of USM Vol 1, but I always got the impression that Peter had been friends with MJ for quite sometime at the start of the comics. That they had been friends since like middle school or something and that now they were at high school, it was starting to become an issue for others around them (i.e. MJ's friends saying she should stop hanging out with him).

Could be wrong, but it always felt to me like MJ had been a part of the family (so to speak) for awhile. There's that scene where she's over for dinner with Ben, May and Peter in that first or second issue that I remember.

But yeah, Ultimate MJ never really felt like she was out of Peter's league to me. Even if Peter himself didn't realize it.

 

[Shikamaru]

Hm. Looks like I need to reread my copy of USM Vol 1, but I always got the impression that Peter had been friends with MJ for quite sometime at the start of the comics. That they had been friends since like middle school or something and that now they were at high school, it was starting to become an issue for others around them (i.e. MJ's friends saying she should stop hanging out with him).

Could be wrong, but it always felt to me like MJ had been a part of the family (so to speak) for awhile. There's that scene where she's over for dinner with Ben, May and Peter in that first or second issue that I remember.

They were on-and-off friends, but the genuinely close friendship we saw didn't start till Peter got his powers.

But yeah, Ultimate MJ never really felt like she was out of Peter's league to me. Even if Peter himself didn't realize it.

The same is true of 616 MJ though. Technically "out of her league" is a condescending term. If you're with someone, it doesn't matter of society thinks you're "out of her league". It's all in their heads.

 

[TheVileOne]

Michelle is nothing like Ultimate Mary Jane.

 

[C Prometheus]

They were on-and-off friends, but the genuinely close friendship we saw didn't start till Peter got his powers.

Fair enough. Looks like I need to re-read my copy of Vol 1.

The same is true of 616 MJ though. Technically "out of her league" is a condescending term. If you're with someone, it doesn't matter of society thinks you're "out of her league". It's all in their heads.

Sure, but then why should anyone even bring up the whole "feel out of their league" line when talking about Mary Jane to begin with? It's a feeling that extends past Peter himself and into the audience. That's why fans of the 616 MJ keep bringing up the phrase.

All I'm saying is that for Ultimate MJ, it only felt like that phrase existed- however briefly- in Peter's head at the start if at all. Not to the audience (or at least, myself).

 

[Dark Raven]

They also looked at Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane as inspiration, which makes this whole situation more frustrating.

Maybe they'll change the comic to Spider-Man Loves Michelle.

 

[Shikamaru]

Fair enough. Looks like I need to re-read my copy of Vol 1.



Sure, but then why should anyone even bring up the whole "feel out of their league" line when talking about Mary Jane to begin with? It's a feeling that extends past Peter himself and into the audience. That's why fans of the 616 MJ keep bringing up the phrase.

All I'm saying is that for Ultimate MJ, it only felt like that phrase existed- however briefly- in Peter's head at the start if at all. Not to the audience (or at least, myself).

That's fair enough.

 

[Surfer]

I understand peoples disappointments on the route Marvel / Sony choose to go with Michelle / MJ, but she is still young and she can still evolve into a character that is more similar to the Mary Jane we know from the comics. Was it necessary they change Mary Janes name to Michelle and make her look like someone not concerned by her appearance? No! Could they have made Michelle an entirely different character from Mary Jane? Absolutely! So, there is no denying they could have introduced her as a more comic accurate Mary Jane. But for whatever reason they choose not to do it. Maybe they thought the audiences would love the twist and the 5% of fans that would be upset by it were outweighed by the 95% of the General audience they felt would love it. Or maybe it is there intention to have Michelle slowly evolve into the Mary Jane from the comics, and they did it feeling she would have a larger character arc. I am not saying she would , only that perhaps Marvel and Sony felt she would. However, whatever there reason was and whether it was the right decision or the wrong decision, it is at this point irrelevant as the movie is already made and her introduction as Michelle / MJ/ Mary Jane is a done deal. So for me yes I can be disappointed, but I know her introduction is set and unchangable. So rather then be upset by what was done, I am trying to remain positive and say what can Marvel still do to have this character become the Mary Jane from the comics. For her name to become Mary Jane, perhaps her full name is Michelle Mary-Jane Watson, and while she goes by Michelle she prefers her middle name, so her really close friends Call her Mary-Jane or MJ for short. Or perhaps she starts caring more about her appearance in a sequel to get the attentions of Peter, but instead gets noticed by an Film Agent that loves her look but thinks she should change her name to Mary Jane. Sure it could be a Stage Name but many times Actors and Actresses change their names legally as well. As for the reason she changes her looks. As I said before perhaps she wants to be noticed by Peter as a love interest and she thinks he sees her as only a friend, so she is like I will show him what he's missing and makes efforts to be more fashionable and attractive to achieve her goals. Anyways I am just saying not that people shouldn't be disappointed, because believe me I get it, but just trying to point out that it is possible the character could still be developed into the character we all know and love. So, I would rather concentrate on where they take it from here as opposed to what they have done already. At least that's how I see it.

Surfer

 

[Chris B]

While I agree that the whole set-up they're going for is unnecessary, I'm willing to see where they go with this myself. I just hope that her full name is revealed to include the words Mary Jane Watson in the sequel. Based on how the scene in question was described, I do think that they still have wiggle room to do that.

 

[Spiderine]

So she is a made up character for these films? Unless she is in the witness protection program this must be the case.

 

[C Prometheus]

So she is a made up character for these films? Unless she is in the witness protection program this must be the case.

Nah, I'm thinking/hoping that her full name is "Michelle Mary Jane Watson."

Spoiler

Apparently we don't really get anything about her name in the film other than "Michelle" and her desired nickname, "MJ." She's a minor character in this film and is set up to become a larger role in future entries. It's clear that she's meant to be the MCU's MJ and apparently there's still enough wiggle room for them to present her in a more familiar light moving forward.