Homecoming The Zendaya is possibly someone, maybe thread - Part 4

[Kreem Pi]

exactly.

let Michelle be Michelle. why saddle her with any "baggage" ( for better or worse ) associated with the name MJ?

Because it's a compromise between those who want MJ's melanin level to be very low and those who want a non-white MJ.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I think you missed my point. I'm not saying the two can't co-exist (although again, I don't see it happening either way). I'm saying Mary Jane showing up is not a priority or of interest to me right now...seeing more of Michelle is. That said, the idea of two MJs onscreen, having feelings for Peter, creating a triangle of some sort is not something I want to see, at any point.

Re; Mandarin, it's not the same because the fan reaction is not the same. My saying they could have gone with a more comic accurate MJ was speaking more to the idea that Marvel was concerned about fan reaction or trying to please everyone. Clearly, they weren't trying to do that, given that they likely knew that making such drastic changes wouldn't sit well with some.

and i'd much rather see Michelle fade away in favor of MJ.. Michelle is fun, but id still choose MJ over her any day

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Feige confirmed she isnt MJ. Thank God. One mistake less easily corrected.

she's not mary jane.. but he could be very much filling her void which is unfortunate

 

[Infinity9999x]

She is MJ. She says so herself. She just isn't Mary Jane.

Which isn't the best move in my opinion. If you want an original character to stand on their own, don't give them a nickname that constantly brings to mind another character.

 

[hafizbat]

Which isn't the best move in my opinion. If you want an original character to stand on their own, don't give them a nickname that constantly brings to mind another character.

Yeah that's a good point.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

Which isn't the best move in my opinion. If you want an original character to stand on their own, don't give them a nickname that constantly brings to mind another character.

 

[Faith_Cassidy]

Welp. This may be the clearest explanation of all...

With his mind consumed by thoughts of Liz, Peter doesn’t notice the other romantic possibilities in his midst, starting with Michelle Jones (Zendaya) or “M.J.” to her friends. Those initials, of course, correspond to the (second) greatest love of Peter’s life, Mary Jane Watson. Co-screenwriter John Francis Daley confirms to Yahoo Movies that he intended Michelle to “be a reinvention” of Mary Jane. “It’s not up to us, but that’s certainly how we planted the seeds in this movie. Just to make her wholly different.” Different indeed; to put it in Breakfast Club terms, Michelle is Ally Sheedy while Mary Jane is Molly Ringwald.

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/explaining-spider-man-homecoming-easter-eggs-212204779.html

 

[Infinity9999x]

Welp. This may be the clearest explanation of all...



https://www.yahoo.com/movies/explaining-spider-man-homecoming-easter-eggs-212204779.html

So essentially Fiege is saying one thing and one of the writers is saying another.


Eh. Either way, they just need to pick one and be done with it. You want this girl to be Mary Jane? Make her Mary Jane and have her evolve into the MJ we know. If you want her to be a new character, have her be a new character.

Don't do this weird in-between thing where she's a new character who still has Mary Jane's nickname. And...maybe some Mary Jane like qualities? Who knows. I'm fine with her being original, but then erase all the Mary Jane comparisons.

Using the John Blake example again...it would be like if they introduced John Blake in Begins, and gave him the Robin nickname in the first film. Then throughout the series continues to use this character who is clearly not really remotely similar to any version of Robin...but giving you a name that will constantly have you thinking of the actual character Robin whenever he pops up on screen. Not the best game plan.

 

[Ozbridge]

I honestly think writers, director and Feige should just STOP with all the explanation and clarification because I don't think they have clarified anything, just make things seem even more complicated and confusing. If they don't say anything then audience can just consider Michelle an original character with the MJ initial a nod to the comic book character, and then we can move on.

And I'm definitely NOT looking forward to the next decade hearing fans saying "This is STILL not the definitive version of cinematic Spider-Man because it doesn't have Mary Jane"

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

Eh. The writer very clearly said that he had a reinvention of Mary Jane in mind but that it was really out of his control once the studio took over. Feige said it isn't Mary Jane, so it's not Mary Jane.

Doesn't mean we're getting a Mary Jane, just means this isn't her.

Is there any official confirmation that Michelle's last name is actually Jones? This seems like a wild rumor that keeps spreading. Just like Liz's name is never confirmed to be Allan.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

This wishy-washy stuff with Mary Jane is just upsetting. Do or do not, there is no try. The casting of Zendaya would have been perfect for an updated take on classic MJ. But no, you need to reinvent the character from the ground up because there's obviously something wrong with one of the greatest supporting characters ever to be put on paper. Marvel blew it, and they know it and now they're trying to back out of it. I'm disappointed.

 

[X Knight]

yeah, the comments from Feige and Pascal now smell more like backtracking after that writer's comments.

or else, creative isn't on the same page in terms of communications.

 

[stillanerd]

Which isn't the best move in my opinion. If you want an original character to stand on their own, don't give them a nickname that constantly brings to mind another character.

This wishy-washy stuff with Mary Jane is just upsetting. Do or do not, there is no try. The casting of Zendaya would have been perfect for an updated take on classic MJ. But no, you need to reinvent the character from the ground up because there's obviously something wrong with one of the greatest supporting characters ever to be put on paper. Marvel blew it, and they know it and now they're trying to back out of it. I'm disappointed.

Exactly! It's more of this J.J. Abrams "mystery box" shenanigans like what happened with Joesph Gordon-Levitt's John Blake and Benedict Cummerbatch's John Harrison. Worse, it makes Sony look like they were too scared to have an African American actress as Mary Jane. So instead, they tried being cute and clever about it, only to wind up looking gutless. They really needed to take a stand and stick with it, not this whole "Well she isn't Mary Jane, but she kind of is" nonsense.

Welp. This may be the clearest explanation of all...



https://www.yahoo.com/movies/explaining-spider-man-homecoming-easter-eggs-212204779.html

So, if what John Francis Daley is saying is true, then the execs really were gutless. Talk about disappointing.

 

[Guard82]

I think this is being blown out of proportion. Zendaya's character is enjoyable, and her character Michelle is obviously meant to be a new character who happens to possess some traits borrowed from the classic female characters of the Spider-Man mythology, such as Mary Jane Watson. And the "MJ" reference was meant to be an Easter egg for Spider-Man fans to acknowledge that Mary Jane is one influence for this new original character. I don't see what the big deal is.

 

[Silver Surfer]

lol @ the "(second) greatest love of Peter’s life". Just lol.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Exactly! It's more of this J.J. Abrams "mystery box" shenanigans like what happened with Joesph Gordon-Levitt's John Blake and Benedict Cummerbatch's John Harrison. Worse, it makes Sony look like they were too scared to have an African Actress as Mary Jane. So instead, they tried being cute and clever about it, only to wind up looking gutless. They really needed to take a stand and stick with it, not this whole "Well she isn't Mary Jane, but she kind of is" nonsense.



So, if what John Francis Daley is saying is true, then the execs really were gutless. Talk about disappointing.

lol @ the "(second) greatest love of Peter’s life". Just lol.

 

[stillanerd]

I think this is being blown out of proportion. Zendaya's character is enjoyable, and her character Michelle is obviously meant to be a new character who happens to possess some traits borrowed from the classic female characters of the Spider-Man mythology, such as Mary Jane Watson. And the "MJ" reference was meant to be an Easter egg for Spider-Man fans to acknowledge that Mary Jane is one influence for this new original character. I don't see what the big deal is.

It's problematic for two reasons:

First, it's another example of what's been happening way too often in big budget franchise films, in which, as a wink and a nod, the film introduces us to someone who they allege is a new, original character in the film only to then reveal they're someone the fans are very familiar with as a "twist." It happened, of course, in Batman Begins, Dark Knight Rises, Star Trek Into Darkness, Spectre, etc. It's become an overused gimmick.

Second, the whole "Well, she's really an original character, but we want audiences to associate her with this more fan favorite recognizable character" makes both Sony and Marvel Studios look weak. If they want Michelle to be an original character, why have her be associated at all with Mary Jane? If they want her to be this film's version of Mary Jane, then why not have her be Mary Jane? They already tweaked other characters like Aunt May, Ned, Flash, Liz, Betty, etc. So why stop there?

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

It's problematic for two reasons:

First, it's another example of what's been happening way too often in big budget franchise films, in which, as a wink and a nod, the film introduces us to someone who they allege is a new, original character in the film only to then reveal they're someone the fans are very familiar with as a "twist." It happened, of course, in Batman Begins, Dark Knight Rises, Star Trek Into Darkness, Spectre, etc. It's become an overused gimmick.

Second, the whole "Well, she's really an original character, but we want audiences to associate her with this more fan favorite recognizable character" makes both Sony and Marvel Studios look weak. If they want Michelle to be an original character, why have be associated at all with Mary Jane. If they want her to be this film's version of Mary Jane, then why not have her be Mary Jane? They already tweaked other characters like Aunt May, Ned, Flash, Liz, Betty, etc. So why stop there?

QFT. Too much fence-sitting. Can't please everyone, and now that they tried, they've please no one.

 

[Faith_Cassidy]

So essentially Fiege is saying one thing and one of the writers is saying another.


Eh. Either way, they just need to pick one and be done with it. You want this girl to be Mary Jane? Make her Mary Jane and have her evolve into the MJ we know. If you want her to be a new character, have her be a new character.

Don't do this weird in-between thing where she's a new character who still has Mary Jane's nickname. And...maybe some Mary Jane like qualities? Who knows. I'm fine with her being original, but then erase all the Mary Jane comparisons.

Using the John Blake example again...it would be like if they introduced John Blake in Begins, and gave him the Robin nickname in the first film. Then throughout the series continues to use this character who is clearly not really remotely similar to any version of Robin...but giving you a name that will constantly have you thinking of the actual character Robin whenever he pops up on screen. Not the best game plan.

I don't think what they're saying is all that different, essentially. If she is a reinvention then she isn't the MJ that we know in the comics, she is "wholly different" and thus, in a sense she is a new character. But ultimately, the relationship she has with Peter will have similar dynamics to comic Peter/MJ. Feige hinted at this possibilty in one of his interviews. JFD was just more direct with their intentions.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Eh. The writer very clearly said that he had a reinvention of Mary Jane in mind but that it was really out of his control once the studio took over. Feige said it isn't Mary Jane, so it's not Mary Jane.

Doesn't mean we're getting a Mary Jane, just means this isn't her.

Is there any official confirmation that Michelle's last name is actually Jones? This seems like a wild rumor that keeps spreading. Just like Liz's name is never confirmed to be Allan.

aka it's also a scape-goat PR thing... aka studio jargon.. to make her the "new mj" with writting off any connection to Mary Jane..so when fans complain they go "well she's not mary jane"

 

[Moridin]

yeah, the comments from Feige and Pascal now smell more like backtracking after that writer's comments.

or else, creative isn't on the same page in terms of communications.

Going off of what Watts said, Daley & Goldstein, who were hired before Watts & his writing partner, were not involved past the first draft. So Daley is speaking from a point of the creative process that is probably 2 years old. Given it's highly unlikely Daley & Goldstein will return or have input in the sequel, I don't think his original intention or opinion is relevant anymore.


Wheras Feige & Pascals comments are current, saying Michelle is not Mary Jane and will not end up as Mary Jane. Seems to me that decision is made.


I think a way to work with this confusing "Michelle/MJ-but-not-Mary-Jane" situation would be to do two things:
1. Use it as a Red Herring going forward. In film 2 Aunt May is trying to set Pete up the niece/daughter of one of her friends, and tell Pete her name is "MJ". Pete thinks she's referring to Michelle and does his best to avoid it because, well Michelle hasnt't exactly been the friendliest girl so far. But eventually he is railroaded into the date and, to his surprise and relief, it's actually Mary Jane - "Face it tiger, etc..."


Not to leave Michelle existing as just a Red Herring, and maybe I'm trading one affront to purists for another, but:

2. Have it be revealed that she is actually Felicia Hardy. She and her father, a professional jewel thief, are laying low in Queens under assumed names. This plays into why she has no friends, she's new & moves around a lot. Maybe she knows her fathers situation, or maybe he told her he works for the Gov, either way she has something to hide (something she recognises in Peter) so keeps to herself a lot.

This also gives the MCU another female character that can actually get in on the action, rather than just be the friend/girlfriend who is in peril and has to be saved.

 

[Immortalfire]

Which isn't the best move in my opinion. If you want an original character to stand on their own, don't give them a nickname that constantly brings to mind another character.

Indeed. Michelle being "Mj" and Jon Blake's other name being Robin, were pretty insulting to my fan intelligence.

Hollywood is like "Oh they're not that character, but we're going to to throw some line about that character just to tease you." Dumb

 

[Faith_Cassidy]

Going off of what Watts said, Daley & Goldstein, who were hired before Watts & his writing partner, were not involved past the first draft. So Daley is speaking from a point of the creative process that is probably 2 years old. Given it's highly unlikely Daley & Goldstein will return or have input in the sequel, I don't think his original intention or opinion is relevant anymore.

I don't see how his intention or opinion isn't relevant when in fact, the final product still has Michelle = MJ. Clearly, the idea of her as a reinvented MJ isn't something that Watts/Feige wholly objected to. And given Feige's comments, it's clear that the MJ nickname is not red herring.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I don't think what they're saying is all that different, essentially. If she is a reinvention then she isn't the MJ that we know in the comics, she is "wholly different" and thus, in a sense she is a new character. But ultimately, the relationship she has with Peter will have similar dynamics to comic Peter/MJ. Feige hinted at this possibilty in one of his interviews. JFD was just more direct with their intentions.

It's pretty different. Feige is saying that she's not Mary Jane and never was supposed to be Mary Jane. The writer is saying she was intended to be a re-worked version of Mary Jane all along. A re-worked version and a completely new original character are different things.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Indeed. Michelle being "Mj" and Jon Blake's other name being Robin, were pretty insulting to my fan intelligence.

Hollywood is like "Oh they're not that character, but we're going to to throw some line about that character just to tease you." Dumb

Well the annoying thing, is that the Michelle line is just confusing, as this is the first film in a series, and it's still unclear if she is going to be an interpretation of Mary Jane or not.

At least with John Blake, I understood it was supposed to be a homage. It's intent was clear, regardless of how tactful it was.