Homecoming The Zendaya is possibly someone, maybe thread - Part 4

[Infinity9999x]

The situation is[I/] weird, I think we can all agree on that.

It's a needless complication really. Zendaya was charming enough on her own that I would have been fine with her as her own original character. I would have been bummed we had no MJ, but I can deal with it. I love the Nolan trilogy and 2 of those films have an original love interest (and a bland one at that) and I was fine with it.

General rule of thumb with creative endeavours for me: don't take half measures. It's the quickest way to guarantee no one will be happy. And that's what Marvel did. If Zendaya ends up being a great love interest that acts nothing like Mary Jane...isn't called Mary Jane...but is called MJ, it's just needlessly confusing the general audience.

 

[Broseph44]

So just got back from seeing this and yeah, her character is pointless. She adds nothing to anything that's really going on. She's thrown into scenes randomly to basically provide a funny line or moment. None of which made me laugh or worked for me. And then of course the MJ line thrown in at the end along with her seemingly look of interest in Peter as he walks away. Pretty horrible, even had someone in my theater say out loud "what?" When she dropped the MJ line. Overall I have no idea what they're doing with this character, and I am not sure they do either.

This Michelle, MJ, Mary Jane whatever the hell you wanna call her. Definitely one of my negatives for the film. FYI, I enjoy the film a ton and am gonna post a full review soon. I'm sure I'll be attacked here in a bit for my thoughts on this but whatever, this character is one of biggest problems for me that I had with the film.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

people were praying for spidey to be saved by marvel studios and then when it happens, betty brant looks like gwen, ned is ganke, mj is michelle (jones), flash is completely unlike the comic version, stark makes the suit...

seriously, i wonder what else they can change. if they keep this up, they're gonna make fox men look super faithful in comparison.
i will still go see it, but i guess i'm not looking forward to it as much as i would have liked.

this is honestly the part that breaks my heart.. the rest of the movie is fantastic.. but this who thing stings badly. and was a really cluster ___ of a decision for them to make.

 

[Infinity9999x]

So just got back from seeing this and yeah, her character is pointless. She adds nothing to anything that's really going on. She's thrown into scenes randomly to basically provide a funny line or moment. None of which made me laugh or worked for me. And then of course the MJ line thrown in at the end along with her seemingly look of interest in Peter as he walks away. Pretty horrible, even had someone in my theater say out loud "what?" When she dropped the MJ line. Overall I have no idea what they're doing with this character, and I am not sure they do either.

This Michelle, MJ, Mary Jane whatever the hell you wanna call her. Definitely one of my negatives for the film. FYI, I enjoy the film a ton and am gonna post a full review soon. I'm sure I'll be attacked here in a bit for my thoughts on this but whatever, this character is one of biggest problems for me that I had with the film.

If you look at this thread, probably not. The only thing I disagree with is, I found her enjoyable. I just think they should have kept her original, or have her name be freakin' Mary Jane, and evolve her into a more MJ like character over the series.

 

[fuflipflops]

General rule of thumb with creative endeavours for me: don't take half measures. It's the quickest way to guarantee no one will be happy. And that's what Marvel did. If Zendaya ends up being a great love interest that acts nothing like Mary Jane...isn't called Mary Jane...but is called MJ, it's just needlessly confusing the general audience.

exactly.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

It's a needless complication really. Zendaya was charming enough on her own that I would have been fine with her as her own original character. I would have been bummed we had no MJ, but I can deal with it. I love the Nolan trilogy and 2 of those films have an original love interest (and a bland one at that) and I was fine with it.

General rule of thumb with creative endeavours for me: don't take half measures. It's the quickest way to guarantee no one will be happy. And that's what Marvel did. If Zendaya ends up being a great love interest that acts nothing like Mary Jane...isn't called Mary Jane...but is called MJ, it's just needlessly confusing the general audience.

bingo...

 

[Broseph44]

If you look at this thread, probably not. The only thing I disagree with is, I found her enjoyable. I just think they should have kept her original, or have her name be freakin' Mary Jane, and evolve her into a more MJ like character over the series.

This is the argument I've been making then whole to time. But then it turns into race baiting etc. Is she visually the ideal look I'd want for Mary Jane? No, not because of her skin color. If they made her white red hair then awesome. But I also wouldn't mind if the gave Zendaya red hair and gave her the characteristics and personality of Mary Jane. But they didn't do that, it feels like they didn't know what they wanted to do. They gave us this weird thrown together hybrid/pseudo/in name only etc mish mash of a character. If you wanted her to be Michelle just make her Michelle from the get go. If you wanted her to be Mary Jane make her Mary Jane from the get go. It's so simple and yet they took a completely unnecessary route, for no reason at all.

 

[Frodo]

I'm fine with what they did and how it was executed. They wanted to be a surprise, which for the vast majority of the GA, not fanboys, it will be.

Fanboys did freak out and lose it over the possibility of Zendaya being MJ. To be fair though, a fair number of fans where also fine with it .

Should it have been a secret or not? I could really care less . That's just me. She was a peripheral character in this story and we didn't even hear her name until the end of the film anyway .

Again, the vast Majority of people seeing this film don't follow every bit of news about the production, and haven't been debating and discussing who Z really was , so they're not gonna care as much as fanboys do.

As far as who she was in this version , it worked. I like the idea of her being sort of a gadfly as opposed to just a sex symbol, or a whiny damsel which she was in the Raimi films.

I also like the idea of her being smart and perceptive. When Peter falls for her , he will fall for her for who she is, not because she's the hottest ,most popular girl in school, or because its a childhood crush as in the Raimi films. She'll have some weight to her character .

I really didn't have any issue with how they handled MJ at all.

 

[The Infernal]

Some people saw this coming saying that she wouldn't resemble MJ in either character or looks. Though some went further saying we would get a 'reveal' where she would turn up looking like a supermodel. We didn't even get that. What we got was Michelle 'MJ'. It was tacked onto the end. The actress played her roll well enough, but all she had to do was sit about in a couple of scenes and squint and say some vaguely catty. That's not a character.

I'd be fine if they just moved on and pretended this never happened.

Lol when Z mentioned her friends call her MJ, there was a collective groan at my screening. Even some of the GA are unimpressed

I just rolled my eyes. There was less than 6 people at my screening (not sure if 3D screenings are just less popular) so you didn't really hear any reactions to anything in the movie.

What's next, the principal is gonna be like, they call me Shang-Chi? Incorrect ethnicity aside.

That guy kinda got screwed IMO. He's supposed to be a cameo/reference to Captain America, but I'm not sure he had much lines. You see him briefly then it cuts away quickly to Peter in detention with some other teacher.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I'm fine with what they did and how it was executed. They wanted to be a surprise, which for the vast majority of the GA, not fanboys, it will be.

Fanboys did freak out and lose it over the possibility of Zendaya being MJ. To be fair though, a fair number of fans where also fine with it .

Should it have been a secret or not? I could really care less . That's just me. She was a peripheral character in this story and we didn't even hear her name until the end of the film anyway .

Again, the vast Majority of people seeing this film don't follow every bit of news about the production, and haven't been debating and discussing who Z really was , so they're not gonna care as much as fanboys do.

As far as who she was in this version , it worked. I like the idea of her being sort of a gadfly as opposed to just a sex symbol, or a whiny damsel which she was in the Raimi films.

I also like the idea of her being smart and perceptive. When Peter falls for her , he will fall for her for who she is, not because she's the hottest ,most popular girl in school, or because its a childhood crush as in the Raimi films. She'll have some weight to her character .

I really didn't have any issue with how they handled MJ at all.

See, this is my worry. I really, REALLY don't want them to have Peter notice Michelle romantically until she undergoes a physical transformation. If she does change her look, it should be for her own reasons, and not to catch Peter's eye. That's one thing I loved about comic MJ, she built her image for herself, not for anyone else. And I'm worried with their homages to 80s teen films (and don't get me wrong, I love Breakfast club) they'll go back to this tired, and frankly somewhat backwards teen cliche.

 

[Alana´s Gun]

I rather liked Zendaya. I am a little miffed they didn't pull the trigger but you can see rigtbin this thread people who would never accept Zendaya as Mary Jane. So they have to keep the door open to appease those who need her to be "traditional" and ideal.

What she did in the film was one though. She's just as charming as Holland when she's on screen and got one of the bigger laughs in the film. I'm REALLY interested to see what happens with the two of them

 

[MarvelKnight]

Frankly, she wasn't on screen enough for me to even care about her MJ line. It was just pointless and felt like marvel did it simply to get a reaction. For me my reaction was "Meh"

Alas, and I know it is "stating the obvious" but if they flesh her out in the sequels to a satisfactory degree I am sure both mine and the majority of people's opinions will change.

 

[Frodo]

See, this is my worry. I really, REALLY don't want them to have Peter notice Michelle romantically until she undergoes a physical transformation. If she does change her look, it should be for her own reasons, and not to catch Peter's eye. That's one thing I loved about comic MJ, she built her image for herself, not for anyone else. And I'm worried with their homages to 80s teen films (and don't get me wrong, I love Breakfast club) they'll go back to this tired, and frankly somewhat backwards teen cliche.

I can't say when Peter will notice her romantically, that's ultimately up to Marvel/Sony. Still though, you've got to keep in mind she is in his life in one form or another and we don't know how that dynamic will play out between the two of them as potential rivals, friends, etc.

That said, I actually tend to think the dynamic will be more of the "falling for my friend, opposites fighting each other then falling, or someone who's been there all along" dynamic as opposed to the " wow the ugly duckling is hot" dynamic. They seem beyond the teen cliche's at least as long as Marvel is involved. If it falls just to Sony, i'd be nervous.

My point is that when he falls for her, it won't be just because of her physical appearance. He will really get to know her for who she is as a person through out HS before eventually he falls for her. Its actually pretty realistic and alot more compelling then the "falling for the hot girl because she's hot".

It's also is demarcation between his HS loves in which there really isn't much depth i.e. Liz Allen, to his real loves like Gwen and MJ in which there's more substance there.

Looking at the potential directions that Feige and Watts may go in, things could get very interesting.

 

[godisawesome]

I rather liked Zendaya. I am a little miffed they didn't pull the trigger but you can see rigtbin this thread people who would never accept Zendaya as Mary Jane. So they have to keep the door open to appease those who need her to be "traditional" and ideal.

What she did in the film was one though. She's just as charming as Holland when she's on screen and got one of the bigger laughs in the film. I'm REALLY interested to see what happens with the two of them

I mostly agree with this. I enjoyed the actress and her performance, and wouldn't mind seeing her getting development into a more classic MJ, but I wouldn't need her to, either.

I do think the ambiguity about her character is playing it safe, but not just on the side of possible racist complaints; I think they wanted to have potential future setups but not distract from Liz's role in the film. Going with yet another of Spidey's love interests can afford you much more flexibility with their story, and we saw that here. And I think they wanted something similar with their MJ character; they didn't want to distract from the central subplot with Liz, they wanted a character to act more as a foil and companion to Pete and Ned to define what their type of geekdom is, and they wanted to be able to move forward in whatever manner they'd felt was appropriate based off audience reaction.

It is a sort of "half-measure", but I don't know if it can quite be compared to John Blake, who was really more of just a straight up Easter egg attached to a significant ensemble character. I still see potential...

See, this is my worry. I really, REALLY don't want them to have Peter notice Michelle romantically until she undergoes a physical transformation. If she does change her look, it should be for her own reasons, and not to catch Peter's eye. That's one thing I loved about comic MJ, she built her image for herself, not for anyone else. And I'm worried with their homages to 80s teen films (and don't get me wrong, I love Breakfast club) they'll go back to this tired, and frankly somewhat backwards teen cliche.

...Because I could see a transformation making her more in line with the comic version of MJ, but yeah, I don't want them to go for a totally tired cliche with shallow implications. Zendaya *is* a former model, and I could easily see the next film (Spider-Man: Prom?) having her character dress to impress, leave the initially only friendly Peter floored, then have her smirk and just say "Jackpot" in a sarcastic and teasing voice. But if they did that, I'd want it to be more about her showcasing a mastery of the, I don't know, "art" of beauty, and make it clear she wanted a physical appearance change, but does view it as a "production" she can just turn off and on, highlighting some of the character's actress chops perhaps. I've known girls who did that in my high school prom, and it could be a nice breath of fresh air.

And I liked the character in the movie enough to hypothesize yet another way they could play with the mythology. Comic Mary Jane knew who Peter was because they were neighbors and she simply caught him in the Spiderman costume; Michell in this movie has a clear preoccupation with Pete's movements, and the film clearly shows he's not that great at hiding his identity, even from people who don't know him personally. They could have her realize who he is, and just reveal some of her interactions with him are colored by it like in the comics, where there's an implications Mary Jane admired his heroism but did keep her distance a bit out of worry.

 

[Faith_Cassidy]

I'm really not seeing much of reason to worry about the writers falling back on problematic cliches when they seem to have gone out of their way to change things up with this movie. Sure there's an homage to The Breakfast Club but Marvel has still put their own twists on these characters that help distinguish them from any others we've seen onscreen.

That's stupid.

If you say so. lol But it's happening and while I'm not in love with the idea, I don't believe a cinematic universe is beholden to the source material.

I'm fine with what they did and how it was executed. They wanted to be a surprise, which for the vast majority of the GA, not fanboys, it will be.

Fanboys did freak out and lose it over the possibility of Zendaya being MJ. To be fair though, a fair number of fans where also fine with it .

Should it have been a secret or not? I could really care less . That's just me. She was a peripheral character in this story and we didn't even hear her name until the end of the film anyway .

Again, the vast Majority of people seeing this film don't follow every bit of news about the production, and haven't been debating and discussing who Z really was , so they're not gonna care as much as fanboys do.

As far as who she was in this version , it worked. I like the idea of her being sort of a gadfly as opposed to just a sex symbol, or a whiny damsel which she was in the Raimi films.

I also like the idea of her being smart and perceptive. When Peter falls for her , he will fall for her for who she is, not because she's the hottest ,most popular girl in school, or because its a childhood crush as in the Raimi films. She'll have some weight to her character .

I really didn't have any issue with how they handled MJ at all.

This. From what I've seen of the reaction on places like twitter, folks are not unhappy or confused by the MJ reveal. Frankly, I haven't seen a lot of discussion about it but when it does pop up, the reactions are mostly positive, with fans being pleasantly surprised by the idea of her as MJ. It's basically in line with the reaction to all the other changes in the movie, in that, the GA/casual fans just don't care that Flash doesn't look like comic Flash or that Spidey didn't make his own suit, etc. As I've said before, these criticisms are mostly confined to forums like this one.

 

[Frodo]

This. From what I've seen of the reaction on places like twitter, folks are not unhappy or confused by the MJ reveal. Frankly, I haven't seen a lot of discussion about it but when it does pop up, the reactions are mostly positive, with fans being pleasantly surprised by the idea of her as MJ. It's basically in line with the reaction to all the other changes in the movie, in that, the GA/casual fans just don't care that Flash doesn't look like comic Flash or that Spidey didn't make his own suit, etc. As I've said before, these criticisms are mostly confined to forums like this one.

Yeah. As fans we tend to follow this stuff (development of these films)religiously, so there's an inherent hype, pardon the pun, and build up for things like Who Z really is and how Donald Glover's character plays into it, and why Flash, Ned, and Liz don't like the comics etc.

Most of the GA know the basic outlines of Spiderman and alot of his supporting cast like MJ, Aunt May and JJ due to the other films over the past 15 years.

They aren't as in the weeds about other peripheral characters ,so it tends to get more of a pass then say Superman in which practically anyone of any demographic could tell you about Superman's Supporting cast, background or several of Batman's rogues gallery.

I tend to suspect the vast majority of the GA knows MJ more then Gwen Stacy as Peter's love interest and would likely name her as Peter's love interest if asked on the spot.

 

[X Knight]

Yeah. As fans we tend to follow this stuff (development of these films)religiously, so there's an inherent hype, pardon the pun, and build up for things like Who Z really is and how Donald Glover's character plays into it, and why Flash, Ned, and Liz don't like the comics etc.

Most of the GA know the basic outlines of Spiderman and alot of his supporting cast like MJ, Aunt May and JJ due to the other films over the past 15 years.

They aren't as in the weeds about other peripheral characters ,so it tends to get more of a pass then say Superman in which practically anyone of any demographic could tell you about Superman's Supporting cast, background or several of Batman's rogues gallery.

I tend to suspect the vast majority of the GA knows MJ more then Gwen Stacy as Peter's love interest and would likely name her as Peter's love interest if asked on the spot.

I agree with that last part.

which is why I feel out of all the supporting characters to change, she's the hardest to do - especially the drastic change here.

even though, I guess now it's confirmed she's technically not the same character.

but somehow she has those iconic initials for reasons and such...........

 

[The Infernal]

While I think the GA will be more aware of MJ as Peter's love interest, I'm not sure that knowledge would be widespread. The Amazing Spider-man films featured Emma Stone as Gwen and her character has seen more exposure in various media in recent years. Other than the Raimi movies and the 90's cartoon has MJ even had much exposure at all let alone as Peter's love interest? As I've said elsewhere I'm not sure that MJ moment will even register for a lot of people.

 

[fuflipflops]

While I think the GA will be more aware of MJ as Peter's love interest, I'm not sure that knowledge would be widespread. The Amazing Spider-man films featured Emma Stone as Gwen and her character has seen more exposure in various media in recent years. Other than the Raimi movies and the 90's cartoon has MJ even had much exposure at all let alone as Peter's love interest? As I've said elsewhere I'm not sure that MJ moment will even register for a lot of people.

i will say though so many general audience people somehow think emma played mj. that speaks to the popularity of the character, even without having been featured in a lot of stuff over the last ten years.

the mj moment seemingly went over people's heads at my theater.

 

[Frodo]

While I think the GA will be more aware of MJ as Peter's love interest, I'm not sure that knowledge would be widespread. The Amazing Spider-man films featured Emma Stone as Gwen and her character has seen more exposure in various media in recent years. Other than the Raimi movies and the 90's cartoon has MJ even had much exposure at all let alone as Peter's love interest? As I've said elsewhere I'm not sure that MJ moment will even register for a lot of people.

I'd say MJ being Peter's love interest is alot more widespread than you may think due to the Raimi movies. You have to keep in mind that for alot of the GA , The Raimi films are what they think the Spiderman story is.


While the Spiderman character has been around since 60s, the films are relatively recent i.e. 2002, as opposed to Batman and Superman which had alot a 20 year edge on Spiderman in terms of films alone.

His supporting cast really aren't a big part of pop culture and don't come with the same expectations that audiences have with say Batman or Superman.

So when the Raimi films came out, its not as if the story and alot of the supporting characters he brought to the screen were common knowledge to the GA in the late 90s early 2000s.

It really was alot of people's first and only indoctrination to the Spiderman mythology and supporting characters. Maguire was Spiderman for alot of the GA at the time people much in the way Downey is Stark for alot of the GA who haven't been exposed to anything else. Yes, you had the tv show and the cartoons in which various characters were featured but it was really the Raimi films which have given the GA the expectation that MJ is Peter's true love, the way Lois is Clark's true love.

 

[X Knight]

I'd say MJ being Peter's love interest is alot more widespread than you may think due to the Raimi movies. You have to keep in mind that for alot of the GA , The Raimi films are what they think the Spiderman story is.


While the Spiderman character has been around since 60s, the films are relatively recent i.e. 2002, as opposed to Batman and Superman which had alot a 20 year edge on Spiderman in terms of films alone.

His supporting cast really aren't a big part of pop culture and don't come with the same expectations that audiences have with say Batman or Superman.

So when the Raimi films came out, its not as if the story and alot of the supporting characters he brought to the screen were common knowledge to the GA in the late 90s early 2000s.

It really was alot of people's first and only indoctrination to the Spiderman mythology and supporting characters. Maguire was Spiderman for alot of the GA at the time people much in the way Downey is Stark for alot of the GA who haven't been exposed to anything else. Yes, you had the tv show and the cartoons in which various characters were featured but it was really the Raimi films which have given the GA the expectation that MJ is Peter's true love, the way Lois is Clark's true love.

I agree.

but my impression that MJ is Peter's girl ( like Lois is Clark's ) came long before the Raimi films.

I remember when I was a kid, I played that classic SpiderMan vs Kingpin Genesis game and that had you saving MJ from Kingpin.

and while I never really was a big comic book reader when I was a kid, when I did start reading Spidey comics in my teen years, it was during the Clone Sage where Peter and MJ were married. And when I read one-shot Spidey novels, those again had Peter and MJ together.

Then the Raimi films came along as well as the Ultimate comics and those again reinforced the idea that MJ is Peter's main LI.

 

[MbJ]

They were also together in the popular TV show in the 90's. It's funny that there seems to be so much debate online when everyone in our theater seemed to get the significance of the MJ line. We got a chorus of "Whoo"s.

 

[X Knight]

They were also together in the popular TV show in the 90's. It's funny that there seems to be so much debate online when everyone in our theater seemed to get the significance of the MJ line. We got a chorus of "Whoo"s.

"whoos" as in good whoos or bad whoos??

 

[MbJ]

There's a bad kind of whoo? It was this kind.
[YT]j1FS4Dw8miI[/YT]

 

[spideyboy_1111]

The audience isn't stupid... they know Spider-Man has Mary Jane as a romantic interest in every media outlet. Not "just" mj... and certainly not a michelle..

It not just confusing for fans... But the general audience as well... let's not pretend the raimi film's didn't exist and expose a heck of alot of people to MARY JANE WATSON.