TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 2

[Gavan]

The GA might be more accepting if they're casual fans of Superman stuff like the Justice League cartoon and not too hardcore fans of any particular version.

 

[InJustice]

The trailers already hinted at a non-linear narrative (buses) and it was easy to get engaged in my head, so I hope that works out for real.

All I know is people on another forum welcomed that prospect after Amazing Spider-Man (which I fairly like) was completely linear just like Spider-Man I - added to the "more of the same" effect. Here "it's not the same".

EXACTLY. The moment Clark Kent looked at the bus in Trailer 2 and flashback'd to when he saved the kids, that was a clear indicator that it was going to follow a BB/non-linear timeline.

 

[Anita18]

I find it rather humorous how people here are assured that the GA will like the film even though critics are mixed on it. People aren't mindless drones who like anything you put in front of them and, having seen the movie, a lot of the complaints critics had with the film are valid.

And from what I've seen, most of us geeks will like it anyway despite the flaws. At least we can hold out hope instead of moping in despair!

 

[Hammer!]

Best advice I'd give to people who haven't seen it is to lower your expectations. This is a good movie around the quality of other good cbm's like Thor, Captain America, and Iron Man 3, not great like Nolan's Batfilms or The Avengers.

 

[Audrey]

Some iffy exposition? Nothing more than in TDK trilogy. Actually, a lot less.

Some hammy dialogue here and there? Nothing more than in TDK trilogy.

Some bad editing? Not imo. The editing was pretty damn great imo. I said in my review a few pages back that the non-linear aspect actually absorbed me more into the narrative and I liked it's approach.

I'm not saying these flaws aren't in the film. I just either simply do not understand or agree with them, or I don't find them to be NEARLY as troublesome as some reviews have made them out to be.

Most of the reviews honestly seem the most annoyed that the film does not spend more time developing the Lois/Clark relationship. That seems to be the biggest gripe.

And honestly....that's a VALID gripe.

Goyer struggles with romance. And this relationship is on a totally different level of any "love" story he's ever written before. This is LOIS AND CLARK. What he did for other movies just isn't going to be good enough here. People wanted more and people are letting him know that they wanted MORE. It's a valid critique.

If Smallville---a tv show that had both GOOD writers and BAD writers---would manage to establish a really, really wonderful and moving Lois and Clark love story (granted they had 7 years to do it) then there really is no excuse why Goyer can't acknowledge that this is a FLAW in his writing and get some help to get it right.

BUT--and I mean this as a huge but---I don't think this means it's a bad film. I think there is merit in this film. I even think there is alot of MERIT in establishing Lois Lane FIRST and foremost as a journalist and then taking the time to establish the love story later.

It doesn't mean the movie is doomed or that it's a failure. It's not. But the complaints about the level of action vs. the time devoted to Lois and Clark is a legitimate, valid critique. Superman is a love story just as much as it's an action story. It just is.

But it's not a lost cause. The actors have chemistry. Goyer and Snyder should take this to heart and let them USE it in the sequel. And acknowledge their weak points. The Superman/Lois relationship deserves more. The movie has flaws. It doesn't mean it's terrible. It does mean, however, that Goyer is going to have to suck it up and acknowledge his weak spots when he's writing the sequel. Maybe he needs help writing the love story. Maybe he needs to work harder on it than he usually does because this is not just any other love story and the public (and critics) are not going to be satisfied with his usual efforts. HE's going to have to work harder.

 

[DKDetective]

Sure you do. It happens whenever the general audience either likes a film that fans hate or does not like a film that geeks adore. Iron Man 3 is a good example of this. "It only made money because ignorant people (non-fans) went to see it in droves," is something I saw countless variations of here and on other geek sites. Conversely, when something like Scott Pilgrim fails to find favor beyond comic book geekdom and critics, the GA's ignorance and alleged bad taste in films is usually blamed. "What the hell do they know?" "That film deserved to make more money!"

Call me an elitist, pompous prick, but I say "Screw the General Audience" all the time. I couldn't care less what the general public thinks about things because I'm not really one of them and my tastes tend to differ greatly from Joe Six-Pack. Sure, if you like something, it is great for others to enjoy it and to validate your opinion by sharing the love, but what people at large think and what is popular should never determine what you like.

 

[FourteenthAngel]

Call me an elitist, pompous prick, but I say "Screw the General Audience" all the time. I couldn't care less what the general public thinks about things because I'm not really one of them and my tastes tend to differ greatly from Joe Six-Pack. Sure, if you like something, it is great for others to enjoy it and to validate your opinion by sharing the love, but what people at large think and what is popular should never determine what you like.

^This!

 

[Gavan]

Most of the reviews honestly seem the most annoyed that the film does not spend more time developing the Lois/Clark relationship. That seems to be the biggest gripe.

And honestly....that's a VALID gripe.

Well... as long as it doesn't overreach like Thor/Jane I'm fine with keeping Lois/Clark at the back burner with this one. But the kiss leaves me wary, since that's where Thor/Jane overreached itself.

I mean, Lois is probably his only female friend besides his mom. He opens up to her, she knows his secret this early on... how developed do people expect it to be?

 

[Hammer!]

Well... as long as it doesn't overreach like Thor/Jane I'm fine with keeping Lois/Clark at the back burner with this one. But the kiss leaves me wary, since that's where Thor/Jane overreached itself.

I mean, Lois is probably his only female friend besides his mom. He opens up to her, she knows his secret this early on... how developed do people expect it to be?

It does feel as overreached but I actually thought the Thor/Jane relationship was more believable because, although random, Hemsworth and Portman had a real chemistry spark between them. I didn't get that with Cavil and Adams at all even though I liked both in scenes they were in individually.

 

[Autonet]

I think the kiss was overreaching. I groaned a little bit when it happened. If they had even went with the cheesy "almost kiss, then something distracts them" bit, it would've been better to lead into the sequel.

The GA will like it, it's not a horrible POS movie or anything. It just could've been so much more.

 

[MrMaooz]

I think the kiss was overreaching. I groaned a little bit when it happened.

The GA will like it, it's not a horrible POS movie or anything. It just could've been so much more.

Why?

 

[Autonet]

Why?

They don't spend that much time together to really make you believe that the kiss is genuine and not something Goyer felt he HAD to do.

Spoiler

1. Clark saves Lois in the FoS. She passes out after he heat blasts her wound.
2. She talks to him at his father's grave.
3. She talks to him at the army base.
4. He saves her from the pod and then he leaves to save his Mom a couple of seconds after they land.
5. They talk about the plan to save the world.
6. He saves her from falling and boom kiss time.

Only half of that is intimate time between them.

 

[MouthForWar]

Sorry if this has been asked before but is it true that Superman is never called Superman? That Lois ALMOST calls him that and then instead gets interrupted, then later, he's called "a super man" as a joke?

 

[Lighthouse]

For people worried about the Tomato Meter, I highly recommend looking at Drew McWeeney's(Moriarty) twitter feed, which reveals a lot about the present state of film criticism and film critics in general.

The big problem with the Tomato Meter is that it treats all opinions as equal, and that is clearly not the case.

 

[Audrey]

Well... as long as it doesn't overreach like Thor/Jane I'm fine with keeping Lois/Clark at the back burner with this one. But the kiss leaves me wary, since that's where Thor/Jane overreached itself.

I mean, Lois is probably his only female friend besides his mom. He opens up to her, she knows his secret this early on... how developed do people expect it to be?

Not a good comparison.

To be blunt, no one outside of comic books care about Jane and Thor. Jane isn't even the "true love" arguably in the Thor franchise. Thor is an actual god. He's not Clark Kent.

Lois and Clark....are Lois and Clark. They are, maybe only outside of the Spider-Man franchise (which also has love stories people really love) the most beloved, famous and iconic love story in the entire genre. I think people have to understand that alot more people care deeply about how they are developed and so the standards are going to be higher.

What did people expect? I think people expected actual time devoted to developing their relationship and Goyer dropped the ball. I'm not saying it's a dealbreaker, guys. I think it's ok that he took a different approach.

But people who are NOT ok with this....are presenting valid critiques.

 

[Autonet]

What did people expect? I think people expected actual time devoted to developing their relationship and Goyer dropped the ball. I'm not saying it's a dealbreaker, guys. I think it's ok that he took a different approach.

But people who are NOT ok with this....are presenting valid critiques.

All I know is if they had saved the development and pushed it to MoS 2 it would've been praised more. There is no room for it, this movie is mostly about Clark and it isn't always necessary to jam stuff in even if the lore calls for it.

 

[Audrey]

It does feel as overreached but I actually thought the Thor/Jane relationship was more believable because, although random, Hemsworth and Portman had a real chemistry spark between them. I didn't get that with Cavil and Adams at all even though I liked both in scenes they were in individually.

I actually disagree there. I think Cavill and Adams have a great spark. It's not the actors. It's the writing.

The script for Thor had moments of COMEDY. It had moments of lightness.

The MOS script has literally no moments of lightness.

These actors pinged off each other in the rare moments they actually talked but the script seemed determined to keep them from having actual conversations.

This was all a script issue. The bottom line is that Goyer and Snyder did NOT make it priority to focus on the relationship between these two and that was a mistake. It's a legit complaint about the film.

That said, it doesn't mean it can't be corrected in a sequel.

 

[Audrey]

I think the kiss was overreaching. I groaned a little bit when it happened. If they had even went with the cheesy "almost kiss, then something distracts them" bit, it would've been better to lead into the sequel.

The GA will like it, it's not a horrible POS movie or anything. It just could've been so much more.

No...see...that's the thing.

I think the kiss itself is fine if you view it as two people who have established trust in one another reacting to a moment of adrenaline and stress. There was a connection between Lois and Superman. Clearly, he trusts her and she trusts him.

The problem is EXPECTATIONS. This is Lois and Superman. People project an epic love story on them. When they kiss people don't view it as a kiss of "wow...we made it"....they assume they must be madly in love.

This is as much about the baggage of a 75 year old love story as it is about the errors in this script. In context, the kiss actually does make sense if you understand that these are two people who connected in a moment of stress and are just at the beginning stages of their relationship. IT's just that we don't view Lois and Clark like that. So we project our expectations on them.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Not a good comparison.

To be blunt, no one outside of comic books care about Jane and Thor. Jane isn't even the "true love" arguably in the Thor franchise. Thor is an actual god. He's not Clark Kent.

Lois and Clark....are Lois and Clark. They are, maybe only outside of the Spider-Man franchise (which also has love stories people really love) the most beloved, famous and iconic love story in the entire genre. I think people have to understand that alot more people care deeply about how they are developed and so the standards are going to be higher.

What did people expect? I think people expected actual time devoted to developing their relationship and Goyer dropped the ball. I'm not saying it's a dealbreaker, guys. I think it's ok that he took a different approach.

But people who are NOT ok with this....are presenting valid critiques.

Personally I didn't want to see a romance at all. And thankfully I didn't get one. But I did get a kiss that was rather uncomfortable to watch due to the
forced emotion put into that one (and only one scene).

I think the comparison to the Thor/Jane cinematic relationship is valid because at the very least in Thor you could tell throughout there was a physical infatuation between them. Doesn't justify its presence, but it is there. In this movie they have very little screen time together outside of the two times he saves her from falling. So the kiss was weird. Should have left it out and built up the friendship aspect more IMO

 

[Audrey]

All I know is if they had saved the development and pushed it to MoS 2 it would've been praised more. There is no room for it, this movie is mostly about Clark and it isn't always necessary to jam stuff in even if the lore calls for it.

Ok but again....I think you are missing what the critique is.

I said this yesterday but I'll say it again. There are people who are ALWAYS going to feel that a Superman story that doesn't make time to really focus on Lois Lane is a FAILURE.

There are actual comic book writers who will argue this point with vigor. She's just too important. She's our bridge usually to the dual identity of man and super.

I think the point of some of these reviews is that you should never be treating Lois as something you "jam in" a Superman story. Goyer should have approached this from the start from the perspective of, "OK, I need to figure out how to make this an important part of the narrative."

And for some people? What he did succeeded. I know some MAJOR Lois/Clark fans who LOVE the movie. But for other critics? He didn't do enough. And that's the point.

 

[Autonet]

I agree with you, the kiss didn't bother me as much as it sounds. The actors are good together, but I just think that holding off would've been even better.

Here's a question, was it just me or did it take Clark forever to actually have his first line. Wasn't his first line in the diner?

 

[Marvin]

This is a film we are to take seriously, because nothing says serious more than watching men in capes hitting each other with cars.

-Michael Bonner

Well that stinks.

 

[Raiden]

MOS has reached the RT green slime territory of 59%.

 

[Audrey]

Personally I didn't want to see a romance at all. And thankfully I didn't get one. But I did get a kiss that was rather uncomfortable to watch due to the
forced emotion put into that one (and only one scene).

I think the comparison to the Thor/Jane cinematic relationship is valid because at the very least in Thor you could tell throughout there was a physical infatuation between them. Doesn't justify its presence, but it is there. In this movie they have very little screen time together outside of the two times he saves her from falling. So the kiss was weird. Should have left it out and built up the friendship aspect more IMO

::shrugs:: You may not have wanted it but it doesn't changed the reality that the Superman/Lois love story is the core relationship of the Superman narrative and always will be.

Cutting out the romance guts the narrative from the inside out. So while you have been thankful...that doesn't mean Goyer did a good thing.

I didn't think the kiss was uncomfortable at all. But I had to let go of my expectations in order to view it differently.

 

[Audrey]

I agree with you, the kiss didn't bother me as much as it sounds. The actors are good together, but I just think that holding off would've been even better.

Here's a question, was it just me or did it take Clark forever to actually have his first line. Wasn't his first line in the diner?

I don't think Goyer should have held off. I think he should have shaved off some of the endless action sequences and written more scenes where people actually had actual conversations.

He didn't. So now we hope he does in the sequel.

Cavill doesn't speak a ton in the film.