TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 2

[KalMart]

But that is the thing, it isn't the Superman reveal. He isn't Superman until that moment when he flies from the Black Zero to save Lois, confront Zod and save humanity. That is the moment of choice, that is when Superman is born.

Yes it is. It's when he realizes what he needs to do with his abilities and decides to wear the suit and why. That's the moment of adoption and decision, not a tryout. It needed more. But if it hypothetically wasn't supposed to be, then it was real dumb to have him come out for the first time in his suit like that.

And he wouldn't have tried to save Lois anyway, it was just JorEl's last words of encouragement.

 

[mace1]

Yeah. I know people don't like this movie, but the elements are there for a superior sequel (in my opinion.) I reeeeeeally hope we don't get "Superman Returns"-ed again.

If this movie really fails, I'm gonna have to finally resign myself to the fact that the only DC movies I will see for the rest of my life will be Batman, Batman, Batman, Batman, and Batman.

82% of the audience like it so far, so most do like.

 

[BlueLantern]

There's a lot I found wrong with the movie, but leading on from what you guys have mentioned something that's poking me hard is how the epic moments were dulled down and the generic action beats were given major precedent.

This film needs a damn good editor. A damn good one to salvage it from the wreck. Rearrange the flashbacks chronologically, focus in on pivotal character moments more and then trim down the bloated action sequences.

I'll hope and wait that someone does a fanedit in the vein of Watchmen : Midnight to improve a film that I've been looking forward to for as long as I can remember.

Issue is that this felt like a reverse of Superman Returns. The issue with that film was it was bloated with emotional angst masquerading as intimate character moments and poor plotting as asides whilst the action scenes were actually very well done but just made sterile by the former.

In Man of Steel we've got plodding and overlong action sequences masquerading as challenges to Superman's safeguarding of humanity whilst the downright fantastic character moments are made sterile by an over-reliance on the former and book-ended by badly placed flashbacks.

 

[Blake II]

Why are people saying the action scenes were too long? Those scenes are the best superhero action scenes I've ever seen and it's what saved the movie. They crammed too many things in the first half and I thought they would also cram the action scenes but no the action scenes were perfect in my opinion.

 

[KalMart]

There's a lot I found wrong with the movie, but leading on from what you guys have mentioned something that's poking me hard is how the epic moments were dulled down and the generic action beats were given major precedent.

This film needs a damn good editor. A damn good one to salvage it from the wreck. Rearrange the flashbacks chronologically, focus in on pivotal character moments more and then trim down the bloated action sequences.

I'll hope and wait that someone does a fanedit in the vein of Watchmen : Midnight to improve a film that I've been looking forward to for as long as I can remember.

I put more responsibility for its 'flatness' on the director than the editor. If certain scenes aren't composed and shot to be a certain way and have a certain feel, it's very hard or impossible to manufacture it in editing...not matter how good the editor is. Based on Snyder's previous films, it seems even moreso to be the case.

Plus, he apparently purposely 'held back' on the more stylized approach that he's known for, so who knows what he was going to actually be good at with this movie.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yes it is. It's when he realizes what he needs to do with his abilities and decides to wear the suit and why. That's the moment of adoption and decision, not a tryout. It needed more. But if it hypothetically wasn't supposed to be, then it was real dumb to have him come out for the first time in his suit like that.

And he wouldn't have tried to save Lois anyway, it was just JorEl's last words of encouragement.

Spoiler

Then why doesn't he want to go out in public the next day? The very next day. The first flight is simply the joyous boy. The one who has finally come to grips with what he is, but not necessary who he is. That is why he is testing his abilites.

The suit is only part of it, the will is everything (thank you Ra's). It is only after head Zod's conversation, after being saved from the Black Zero does he realize not only what he can do, but what he must do. And that is why he flies away with perfect grace and determination.

You are describing what you think should be, as opposed to discussing what actually takes place.

 

[Autonet]

Spoiler

Then why doesn't he want to go out in public the next day? The very next day. The first flight is simply the joyous boy. The one who has finally come to grips with what he is, but not necessary who he is. That is why he is testing his abilites.

The suit is only part of it, the will is everything (thank you Ra's). It is only after head Zod's conversation, after being saved from the Black Zero does he realize not only what he can do, but what he must do. And that is why he flies away with perfect grace and determination.

You are describing what you think should be, as opposed to discussing what actually takes place.

Your interpretation is just something I have a hard time seeing. It just never felt like that. Why put on the suit in the first place then? Also the movie is very unclear how much time passes between first flight and Zod landing the first time.

 

[KalMart]

Spoiler

Then why doesn't he want to go out in public the next day? The very next day. The first flight is simply the joyous boy. The one who has finally come to grips with what he is, but not necessary who he is. That is why he is testing his abilites.

The suit is only part of it, the will is everything (thank you Ra's). It is only after head Zod's conversation, after being saved from the Black Zero does he realize not only what he can do, but what he must do. And that is why he flies away with perfect grace and determination.

You are describing what you think should be, as opposed to discussing what actually takes place.

Again, if so, bad decision as it robs the story of that signature resonating moment where it should be and dilutes it where it's eventually placed. That's why there's dislike for it in the first place...it doesn't work.

You are only defending info, not the execution. Enough....you're okay with it, we got it. Good for you, and I'm serious about that. But don't tell someone that there shouldn't be an issue with it when there clearly is.

 

[BlueLantern]

The action scenes were dull and utterly anti-climactic. Oh look, Superman's beating **** up. Will he win? No **** he will. There was no tension to them.

A lot of this also has to do with the way the villainous Kryptonians were portrayed. In Superman II they go on a destructive mission to draw Clark out and destroy him prior to ruling over Earth.

Sure, Clark's given up the mantle of Superman for love but only after he'd been doing some superfeats proactively and decided to go get a life. But regardless of this, the villains were really really driven towards having revenge and winning the day by turning the screws on Clark.

Superman's true Kryptonite is his inability to be everywhere coupled with a great desire to protect humanity. Apart from Faora once saying this out loud, there was no real pressure on this ideal. They're quite happy to put zero pressure on him and just let the World Engine do its work.

Furthermore, Zod clearly knows that he NEEDS to kill Clark in order to harvest the DNA from him and begin rebuilding Krypton anew. What does he do? He heads off to reclaim the Genesis Chamber, say bye to Jor-El and then heads over to take a frontrow seat as Earth is terraformed.

He doesn't even consider 'should I maybe protect the World Engine from Kal-El?' or 'should I proactively seek him out and eliminate him before he ruins our chances at a new Krypton?' Nope, I'll just let him destroy it and then later on bemoan him spoiling everything. Good job at being a reactive villain and then whining about it.

The major issue with blockbuster films is that it's about scale and that in turn ruins the saddening loss of individual lives. The death of one is a tragedy. The death of a million or the destruction of half a city is just a statistic. It has no emotional weight at all.

Bruce saving Gotham from the League of Shadows was mainly to protect and preserve what his parents had worked so hard to build. Even in the third film, it's that emotional attachment to Gotham that drives the film.

Was that there in this film? Nope. Because Clark's still debating over where he's from and where his home is. That's fine, but find SOMETHING to hinge the film on. Have him embrace the planet as his home early on and SHOW him putting in the love and effort to improving it prior to Zod turning up. Not just hanging out on the farm and waiting for **** to go south.

Yes, I get the fact that he's not sure what humanity would think if he revealed himself, but like the Priest said, he needs to take that leap of faith. But much earlier on than halfway through the second act. Then at least when Zod lays waste to his adopted home, he FEELS it. Then he gets mad. Then he goes on a mission to stop Zod.

THEN the action scenes whether long or shot have a weight to them. Death then has a cost to it. I was welling up during the scenes involving both sets of parents, Clark and Lois. Imagine action scenes exploiting that emotion too. That's what was missing. And it really cost the film a lot.

Not to mention the flashbacks being scattered as if fired through a machine gun. They worked a charm in Batman Begins because they were measured and were chronological to a point. Here they were all over the shop. But that's a story for another post.

The controlling question of any film NEEDS to be established at the end of the first act so that the hero has a purpose. Sure, he'll experience doubt when the enemy challenges him, but that's because he's still on shaky ground. But nevertheless, he has a purpose but it's the enemy's job to cement his conviction in that purpose.

The argument of him knowing what he must do after the Black Zero scene is fine, but it's too fricking late to go 'Oh yeah, now I'm gonna rock this party!' Yeah, with twenty minutes to go? Good luck with reclaiming my attention that was lost almost forty five minutes to an hour ago.

P.S Kal, I'm giving Zack the benefit of the doubt here since David Brenner's responsible for tripe like 2012, the Day After Tomorrow and many other overlong duds that could've been salvaged by smart editing. To a point.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Your interpretation is just something I have a hard time seeing. It just never felt like that. Why put on the suit in the first place then? Also the movie is very unclear how much time passes between first flight and Zod landing the first time.

Not a lot of time. You can tell by the Lois article situation and her travel. Best way to tell the time. So maybe a few weeks? No one has to agree with me, but that is exactly how I felt when it happened.

I took him putting on the suit as a moment of acceptance of his heritage. But Superman isn't a wholly Kryptonian thing, at least not to me. It is a combination of Earth and Krypton.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Again, if so, bad decision as it robs the story of that signature resonating moment where it should be and dilutes it where it's eventually placed. That's why there's dislike for it in the first place...it doesn't work.

You are only defending info, not the execution. Enough....you're okay with it, we got it. Good for you, and I'm serious about that. But don't tell someone that there shouldn't be an issue with it when there clearly is.

Enough? What are you my teacher? You certainly aren't my father.

Don't tell me there is a clear issue, where I find none. You do realize the hypocritical nature of your speech right? You can find fault. I don't.

I am not telling you to like it, I am saying what I took from the film. I have no "clear facts". For what it is worth, I love his walk out of the ship. I love his first attempt at flight. I adore when he actually accomplishes it. And I love when he accepts his place as the champion of Earth.

 

[KalMart]

Not a lot of time. You can tell by the Lois article situation and her travel. Best way to tell the time. So maybe a few weeks? No one has to agree with me, but that is exactly how I felt when it happened.

I took him putting on the suit as a moment of acceptance of his heritage. But Superman isn't a wholly Kryptonian thing, at least not to me. It is a combination of Earth and Krypton.

Put it this way...I think it was supposed to be the moment he decided that he will become a hero for the good of people...even if he hadn't quite perfected all his abilities yet. That's what's most important, like there wasn't any 'maybe I won't be a hero' after putting on the suit. That's why it should have been better separated from 'tripping out of the gate', so to speak.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The action scenes were dull and utterly anti-climactic. Oh look, Superman's beating **** up. Will he win? No **** he will. There was no tension to them.

A lot of this also has to do with the way the villainous Kryptonians were portrayed. In Superman II they go on a destructive mission to draw Clark out and destroy him prior to ruling over Earth.

Superman's true Kryptonite is his inability to be everywhere coupled with a great desire to protect humanity. Apart from Faora once saying this out loud, there was no real pressure on this ideal. They're quite happy to put zero pressure on him and just let the World Engine do its work.

Furthermore, Zod clearly knows that he NEEDS to kill Clark in order to harvest the DNA from him and begin rebuilding Krypton anew. What does he do? He heads off to reclaim the Genesis Chamber, say bye to Jor-El and then heads over to take a frontrow seat as Earth is terraformed.

He doesn't even consider 'should I maybe protect the World Engine from Kal-El?' or 'should I proactively seek him out and eliminate him before he ruins our chances at a new Krypton?' Nope, I'll just let him destroy it and then later on bemoan him spoiling everything. Good job at being a reactive villain and then whining about it.

The major issue with blockbuster films is that it's about scale and that in turn ruins the saddening loss of individual lives. The death of one is a tragedy. The death of a million or the destruction of half a city is just a statistic. It has no emotional weight at all.

Bruce saving Gotham from the League of Shadows was mainly to protect and preserve what his parents had worked so hard to build. Even in the third film, it's that emotional attachment to Gotham that drives the film. Was that there in this film? Nope. Because Clark's still debating over where he's from and where his home is. That's fine, but find SOMETHING to hinge the film on. Have him embrace the planet as his home early on and SHOW him putting in the love and effort to improving it prior to Zod turning up. Not just hanging out on the farm and waiting for **** to go south.

Yes, I get the fact that he's not sure what humanity would think if he revealed himself, but like the Priest said, he needs to take that leap of faith. But much earlier on than halfway through the second act. Then at least when Zod lays waste to his adopted home, he FEELS it. Then he gets mad. Then he goes on a mission to stop Zod.

THEN the action scenes whether long or shot have a weight to them. Death then has a cost to it. I was welling up during the scenes involving both sets of parents, Clark and Lois. Imagine action scenes exploiting that emotion too. That's what was missing. And it really cost the film a lot. Not to mention the flashbacks being scattered as if fired through a machine gun. They worked a charm in Batman Begins because they were measured and were chronological to a point. Here they were all over the shop. But that's a story for another post.

Welcome to every Superhero movie ever made. Thank you.

 

[KalMart]

Enough? What are you my teacher? You certainly aren't my father.

Take it easy...

Don't tell me there is a clear issue, where I find none. You do realize the hypocritical nature of your speech right? You can find fault. I don't.

It is clear because we who are discussing it to be so feel it is. So don't tell someone they're not feeling what they're feeling. If you're not feeling it then kudos, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Calm down.

I am not telling you to like it, I am saying what I took from the film.

And I told you, I heard you.


Anything else?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Put it this way...I think it was supposed to be the moment he decided that he will become a hero for the good of people...even if he hadn't quite perfected all his abilities yet. That's what's most important, like there wasn't any 'maybe I won't be a hero' after putting on the suit. That's why it should have been better separated from 'tripping out of the gate', so to speak.

Does he then go and be a hero? No. Heck, he doesn't even know if he trust mankind yet. He is still asking the same questions his father did. [BLACKOUT]Hence the scene in the church.
[/BLACKOUT]
He was already saving people. What changes is when he goes out of the world stage and reveals himself.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Take it easy...

I am sorry, but you wrote it didn't you? You might want to back away from it now because of how ridiculous it was, but you still did it. Not me. You.

It is clear because we who are discussing it to be so feel it is. So don't tell someone they're not feeling what they're feeling. If you're not then kudos. And calm down.

I am discussing it. I don't feel that way and I am not going to tell you how to feel. You on the other hand...

And I told you, I heard you.


Anything else?

Are you going to start talking like an adult now?

 

[KalMart]

edit

 

[KalMart]

I am sorry....(etc)

Dude...if you've got a personal issue here and don't want to discuss the film, then we are done period. Stop this now as I am and either discuss the film specifically or don't respond at all okay?

 

[KalMart]

Does he then go and be a hero? No. Heck, he doesn't even know if he trust mankind yet. He is still asking the same questions his father did. Hence the scene in the church.

He was already saving people. What changes is when he goes out of the world stage and reveals himself.

How soon he does heroic things or what other scene comes right after ISN'T THE POINT. Emotionally, compositionally, it's the point in the story and the character's journey where that decision is made or should be made...just like climaxes should come at the end of a story and not in the first third. It could take him another year before he does a heroic deed again, that's not the point. Symbollically and emotionally, if he first emerges with the suit like that it's because that decision of purpose is made. That what the suit is for...for when he's decided, not to wear while he's still deciding. If what you're alluding to is how they did it, then they handled it badly. He shouldn't have been wearing the suit yet, etc.

I understand how you're interpreting and I could see how one would do that...but the effect of it was a feeling of incompleteness like we're describing with that suit introduction.

 

[samsnee]

Just seen it here in the Philippines, and yeah... I can see where the critics might have a problem with this. The film doesn't know whether it wants to be a Nolan rendition of S:TM or carbon copy of DoTM. Need some more time to process my thoughts, but for the real sticklers:

Spoiler

I don't like how forced Lois' presence was into that second half. Faora takes her no discernible reason just so she can be put in the position to receive Jor-El's plan at stopping the Kryptonians. Then she's in the plane to the arm the Phantom Zone device, but doesn't even do that.

The destruction seemed to be needlessly excessive. Considering that none of the renegade Kryptonians can fly except for Zod in the end, I don't see why Superman couldn't have forced any of his opponents into a deserted location to fight there. Especially since Zod and Superman practically go into outer space at one point and still somehow managed to end up back into Metropolis (which managed to fix itself somehow in the interim). None of them seem to show any signs of damage throughout it all, which sort of takes away from the brutality of the fight. It's annoying how the carnage gets glossed over in the end; Smallville and Metropolis practically get put through the wringer yet everything's back to normal like nothing happened in the next 5 minutes. Avengers had at least some news reports to touch up on the aftermath even just a little bit.

What's DoTM?

 

[BlueLantern]

DarthSkywalker, you're right. Superhero films do have a lack of tension to them sometimes in regards to the action sequences, but guess what? Most films know this and hence reduce the reliance on those moments. Look at Batman Begins and Iron Man. There's action beats but they're measured and controlled for maximum impact.

Look at the Avengers for example. The final battle is the biggest and most pivotal battle, but the ones prior to it have their weight to them and are also controlled in size. Loki v Cap/Iron Man. Thor v Cap/Iron Man. Thor/Black Widow vs Hulk and Cap/Iron Man vs Shield's defectors. They've all got a goal to them and were most importantly exciting. I was happy to nod off during the fights in this film because there was no gravity to them.

Zod vs Clark Round 1? He drives him through the Smallville and Zod then gets the **** out of there. No real effect on the story. Faora/Robot vs Clark? They fight and Faora/Robot escape. No real effect on the story. Clark vs World Engine? He destroys it with almost minimal resistance from sentient enemies. He's competing against gravity. And so on. More to the point, they're all big and noisy without any engaging dialogue, entertainment value or emotional weight driving them. Sure, Zod was threatening Martha but the the treatment of the scene was so sterile that the only reward was seeing Clark fly. That's it. Same for every other scene.

Sure, he's saving people already before that but there's no emotional involvement behind any of it. He saves some faceless engineers on an oil rig. Great. He saves a bus load of kids we don't know or don't get the chance to know. Whoop. Oh and he saves an unnamed waitress from a pervert. Good job.

Guess what? As an audience members I haven't gotten to know any of those endangered parties and as a result I absolutely do not care whether he saves them or not. More so because there's no doubt he'll do it and normally in the least exciting way possible. 'Go, move, get onto the helicopter'. They get onto the helicopter. The rig collapses. They successfully escape with no real element of danger.

As far as the Priest scene is concerned, it's the same as the Black Zero scene. It's too damn late. Like I said before, these controlling questions or the goal of the hero's journey need to be established way early on. Not in the second or third act. By that point most audience members have given up unless they're happy to watch explosions that are more statistical than anything else.

At that point there's nothing separating this film from the Transformers trilogy or something Roland Emmerich's made. To be fair to Roland, he's always putting key characters or relations to key characters in danger, so I'll redact that comparison. He gets it. To a point. I'll stick to the Transformers comparison and it's not a favorable one.

P.S I'm assuming DotM is Dark of the Moon. The third grey-scale explosion fest in the Transformers trilogy.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Dude...if you've got a personal issue here and don't want to discuss the film, then we are done period. Stop this now as I am and either discuss the film specifically or don't respond at all okay?

Are you being serious or did you miss your post? Are you joking? You did it. You are now trying to avoid it, which is why you decided to hack my post down.

I am discussing the movie.

How soon he does heroic things right after ISN'T THE POINT. Emotionally, compositionally, it's the point in the story and the character's journey where that decision is made or should be made...just like climaxes should come at the end of a story and not in the first third. It could take him another year before he does a heroic deed again, that's not the point. Symbollically and emotionally, if he first emerges with the suit like that it's because that decision of purpose is made. If that's not how they did it, then they handled it badly. He shouldn't have been wearing the suit yet, etc.

I don't think it was handled badly at all. It worked wonders for me. I don't think the suit makes him Superman.

You are placing the suit in a different context then what it is in the film imo. The suit doesn't make the man here. He doesn't make the suit to be a superhero, to be Earth's protector. He puts it on and tries it out. Jor-El is trying to push him in that direction, but nothing is close to settled. He then goes home.

What is important is what happens when Zod arrives. Clark is still making decision on who he is going to be, on whether he is willing to give himself up. How is that not important to this conversation? Earth's champion is unsure he is willing to save us. He is still harboring Lara and Johnathan's fears. That he is already Superman at that point doesn't fit for me, not at all. Heck, I'd be willing to give you the "Attention" scene, but not before that.

I also think it is quite telling when the name "Superman" is revealed. It is after the Smallville fight. After he shows himself not to be our enemy.

Those scenes with Hardy and Swanwick come when they do for a reason imo.

I understand how you're interpreting and I could see how one would do that...but the effect of it was a feeling of incompleteness like we're describing with that suit introduction.

The actual suit reveal is weak imo. I still don't even know if Jor-El-gram made it or if it was already on the ship. But I love the first shot of him actually in it. That he has kinks to work out doesn't bother me. It makes him endearing to me. He walks out all incredible looking, and then has his little trouble. And then... awe.

 

[KalMart]

edit

 

[BlueLantern]

The suit is symbolic to his transformation. It's not just a get-some-clothes moment. It's cinematically and emotionally pivotal to his journey.

Look back at the Donner version. It builds to him wearing the suit. It builds to him doing the shirt rip. They're pivotal moments that are cheer worthy.

What happens here? It's unveiled, he gets it on and walks out with almost no aplomb. Ironically the trailer nailed the reveal but the film fluffed it.

I liked him stumbling on the journey to his first flight but I'd much rather have seen that BEFORE he got the suit on.

Him donning the suit is meant to be a flawless moment of transforming from a farm boy or lost boy in this case to mankind's greatest protector. It just is.

Look back at Batman Begins even. Regardless of whether the 'nice coat' line takes away the gravitas from the reveal or not, when he unveils himself as Batman it's epic. It's huge. It's unforgettable.

Dulling such a moment down to a mere rumble is just wrong

 

[KalMart]

Are you being serious

Good night.

P.S Kal, I'm giving Zack the benefit of the doubt here since David Brenner's responsible for tripe like 2012, the Day After Tomorrow and many other overlong duds that could've been salvaged by smart editing. To a point.

I could maybe see it that way...but those films that you've mentioned I never saw editing being their problems (way deeper, IMO) and unless Snyder was completely shut out of the edit and not getting 'final cut', these are issues that he should be able to recognize and push to improve as the film is coming together. Maybe a particularly creatively skilled film editor could have come up with alternative ideas...but they'd really have to convince the filmmaker to go with them and/or get them to realize that they're preferences might not always be the best. That could be very healthy and productive, or become contentious, or both.

Also, there's a good chance that this was indeed the best that this film could have been edited. Not every film ever shot has a 'gem' version in it. Sometimes the best is the 'least worst'. So ultimately, unless creative control is forced away from him, I really believe that mostly, it's ultimately the director's responsibility because it's his call.