Ultron

[Dark Raven]

I think Ultron should be good in the first Ant-Man film, just like he was in A:EMH.

That way it will be more of a turnaround when he does become evil and rebels against his father. It will be a way to give him more character development and to have him present, while saving him for the Avengers 2 as the actual villain and not having Hank defeat him in Ant-Man (providing of course it's Hank's story).

 

[Chewy]

and yet you believe he deserves an entire film to himself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragic_hero

 

[marcvader]

I think Ultron should be good in the first Ant-Man film, just like he was in A:EMH.

That way it will be more of a turnaround when he does become evil and rebels against his father. It will be a way to give him more character development and to have him present, while saving him for the Avengers 2 as the actual villain and not having Hank defeat him in Ant-Man (providing of course it's Hank's story).

This would be the ideal route to take. Having Pym take on Ultron by himself would be a gross injustice to the Ultron character. You'd have to really depower him.

 

[Chewy]

And a gross injustice to Pym himself, if you do Ultron it can't be something he can stop himself. That undermines the entirety of Hank's arc

 

[marcvader]

True. It's just a bad idea period.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Like I've posted in another thread none of the post credits teases have led to a sequel but to another movie which in this case I think is GotG. If it is a tease for A2 then it would be a first. You also get Joss stating he wants a smaller more personal story for A2. All these things doesn't necessarily point towards Thanos being the villain of A2.

So ultron is too big for a solo film but thanos is not? No wait, you said he should be in A3 so basically you want thanos to make the GotG his bi****es before he takes on the avengers?

 

[spideymouse]

so do you think a logical trend goes from Loki to Thanos to Ultron? cuz I dont. I think Kang, Galactus or Korvac would be the logical final villain.

Not to mention, Ant-Man's role in the fight against any of these villains is going to be nominal at best. Lets face it, he's not as powerful. But you're saying that his major contribution to the universe should not be his heroism but his creation of a villain that he cries to the Avengers for help to defeat?

Wow that's charming. That would destroy his character and make Ant-Man waste of a Phase 2 slot if you ask me. He'll be nothing but a joke. A silly f**k-up.

Why, yes, actually. =P

I think they handled his story within the Avengers context very well in A:EMH, not to mention in the comics. They really drove home the idea of Pym's idealism and pacifism (even if they did so by having him say it again and again), which very naturally affected his relationships with the Avengers, his relationship with Jan, and his relationship with Ultron himself. If they handled him similarly in an Avengers sequel, I actually think you would make his character richer for it.

To limit the whole Ultron saga to an Ant-Man solo movie, first of all, is not true to the comics. Secondly, it is just that: limiting to the depth and breadth of the Ultron storyline, lowering the stakes and weakening one of the Avengers' most important and most dangerous earthbound foes. You say having Ultron be an Avengers villain is to destroy the character of Ant-Man, but I say limiting Ultron to be a solo Ant-Man villain is to destroy the character of Ultron.

Edit: haha, the last 7 or so posts were posted while I was writing this.

 

[marcvader]

Most definitely. But what solo film for Thanos are you talking about.

 

[Dark Raven]

so do you think a logical trend goes from Loki to Thanos to Ultron? cuz I dont. I think Kang, Galactus or Korvac would be the logical final villain.

Not to mention, Ant-Man's role in the fight against any of these villains is going to be nominal at best. Lets face it, he's not as powerful. But you're saying that his major contribution to the universe should not be his heroism but his creation of a villain that he cries to the Avengers for help to defeat?

Wow that's charming. That would destroy his character and make Ant-Man waste of a Phase 2 slot if you ask me. He'll be nothing but a joke. A silly f**k-up.

I think Galactus shouldn't be a final Avengers villain. He should be saved for a combined Avengers-Fantastic Four movie with some other Marvel heroes thrown in who aren't part of either team. He certainly shouldn't be easily defeated as he was in FF:ROTSS where all it took was for the Surfer to do his stuff and it drove him back.

 

[spideymouse]

Most definitely. But what solo film for Thanos are you talking about.

Maybe he considers GOTG to be a solo film.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Most definitely. But what solo film for Thanos are you talking about.

I use the term "solo" lightly. Talking about the lead-in film Guardians of the Galaxy. Besides, look at the teaser itself. "To challenge the humans is to court death. Im sure they aint talkin bout no Racoons...

 

[Chewy]

Why, yes, actually. =P

I think they handled his story within the Avengers context very well in A:EMH, not to mention in the comics. They really drove home the idea of Pym's idealism and pacifism (even if they did so by having him say it again and again), which very naturally affected his relationships with the Avengers, his relationship with Jan, and his relationship with Ultron himself. If they handled him similarly in an Avengers sequel, I actually think you would make his character richer for it.

To limit the whole Ultron saga to an Ant-Man solo movie, first of all, is not true to the comics. Secondly, it is just that: limiting to the depth and breadth of the Ultron storyline, lowering the stakes and weakening one of the Avengers' most important and most dangerous earthbound foes. You say having Ultron be an Avengers villain is to destroy the character of Ant-Man, but I say limiting Ultron to be a solo Ant-Man villain is to destroy the character of Ultron.

Edit: haha, the last 7 or so posts were posted while I was writing this.

This is all also true. But I firmly believe the biggest issue with all of it, is that Hank Pym IS a ****-up. He tries to stand with the big boys, he fancies himself a grand hero, and fails. He falls tremendously short, he unleashes a horrifying monster on the world, and there's nothing he can do to stop it.

That is the one Pym arc that has stood the test of time, that is the defining moment in his life, and i'm sure Whedon would salivate at the thought of writing it.

 

[spideymouse]

I use the term "solo" lightly. Talking about the lead-in film Guardians of the Galaxy. Besides, look at the teaser itself. "To challenge the humans is to court death. Im sure they aint talkin bout no Racoons...

Obviously the end-game for Thanos is a super-crazy-ridiculous crossover movie involving the entire MCU, but to say you can't introduce him in GOTG before The Infinity Gauntlet is like saying you shouldn't have Loki in Thor or the Cosmic Cube in CA:TFA so that you can save them for the Avengers movie. No one is suggesting that Thanos should be limited to one GOTG movie.

 

[Dark Raven]

I use the term "solo" lightly. Talking about the lead-in film Guardians of the Galaxy. Besides, look at the teaser itself. "To challenge the humans is to court death. Im sure they aint talkin bout no Racoons...

I'm pretty sure in the version I saw that he said "To challenge the racoons is to court death."

There might've been the word "cinematic" before the last word as well.

 

[spideymouse]

This is all also true. But I firmly believe the biggest issue with all of it, is that Hank Pym IS a ****-up. He tries to stand with the big boys, he fancies himself a grand hero, and fails. He falls tremendously short, he unleashes a horrifying monster on the world, and there's nothing he can do to stop it.

That is the one Pym arc that has stood the test of time, that is the defining moment in his life, and I'm sure Whedon would salivate at the thought of writing it.

Where do you see it as an issue? Like, audiences won't buy a superhero with an inferiority complex, maybe?

 

[Chewy]

No, I meant the biggest issue with using Ultron as the Ant-Man bad guy, and having Pym defeat him

 

[marcvader]

The whole Pym inferiority complex is what I love about having him in the Avengers and let us not forget one of the main components of Pyms problems, Janet. The whole dynamic of trying to impress and please the girl is universal and I can't wait to see it play out in the MCU.

 

[spideymouse]

No, I meant the biggest issue with using Ultron as the Ant-Man bad guy, and having Pym defeat him

Ahh. Gotcha. Yeah, I agree. Though I wouldn't mind Ultron going overboard in helping him in the Ant-Man film (maybe by killing someone), forcing Pym to shut Ultron down, only to be revealed later that Ultron survives and plans his vendetta on humanity in a subsequent Avengers sequel!

The whole Pym inferiority complex is what I love about having him in the Avengers and let us not forget one of the main components of Pyms problems, Janet. The whole dynamic of trying to impress and please the girl is universal and I can't wait to see it play out in the MCU.

Yeah, same here. I hope Marvel Studios continues to believe in its characters.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Well i guess we'll have to see. Sounds like a good idea in theory, but I for one will be surprised if it goes that way. Can you imagine the confusion of the casual fans in the theater who have never seen the less popular of the MCU films (ant-man, gotg) and walk into Avengers 2 expecting to see big daddy purple face and instead its some robot?

 

[Dark Raven]

Well i guess we'll have to see. Sounds like a good idea in theory, but I for one will be surprised if it goes that way. Can you imagine the confusion of the casual fans in the theater who have never seen the less popular of the MCU films (ant-man, gotg) and walk into Avengers 2 expecting to see big daddy purple face and instead its some robot?

I don't think they'll be confused. Some may not have seen the mid credits scene. Also, in TV series, they often tease someone or something and it's not immediately followed up in the next episode. People are used to that. The MCU is done more like a series than pure sequels.

 

[marcvader]

I think most of the casual fans aren't even aware of the Thanos cameo.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I am starting to hop on board a bit more though. Like, look at the Hulk in Avengers. Almost caused more harm than good but then redeemed himself. As long as Pym proves himself a hero in the end im all right with it.

Also: screw the casual fans.

 

[Chewy]

There's nothing Pym can do to redeem himself for it, at least not right away. He makes a horrible mistake, he has to deal with the consequences of it

It's a bit like one of Whedon's own characters, Wesley

 

[spideymouse]

I don't think they'll be confused. Some may not have seen the mid credits scene. Also, in TV series, they often tease someone or something and it's not immediately followed up in the next episode. People are used to that. The MCU is done more like a series than pure sequels.

Also, maybe big purple face will show up again, in another mid-credits sequence or the end sequence of Avengers 2. That would clear up any confusion.

 

[marcvader]

I am starting to hop on board a bit more though. Like, look at the Hulk in Avengers. Almost caused more harm than good but then redeemed himself. As long as Pym proves himself a hero in the end im all right with it.

Also: screw the casual fans.