Venom could never have been a main villain... think about it.

[FatalEnergy]

For starters, one only has to use their imagination.

I'd have a similar set up to what sm3 is doing except, I'd only have eddy get the symbiot right at the end of the movie and then for sm4, it'd be similar to how Venom was used when he 1st got the symbiot in 90s animated series. A lot of stalking, terrorising pete, playing with his mind, kidnap loved ones, hell I'd even have Venom kidnap JJ too. Venom as the only villain can be done. Doc ock and Norman each had their own movies, so why it's a stetch for people to think venom can't is beyond me.

The only way I can see venom being the only villian in the movie is by Eddie getting the symbiote halfway through the movie. I liked what not_a_victim said about black spidey being more brutal with the robberies and then removing it after he almost kills someone, because then that could be the first half of the movie and then your idea about venom could be the second half. This idea seems plausible. I guess I've been proven wrong.

 

[AIRWOLF]

The don't see why Venom can't work as the main villain. To me Doc-Ock just doesn't appeals as the main villain material, but look how Raimi actually made the character interesting and because of that I loved the character in the movie. Same could be done for Venom, and Raimi could have done it if he wanted to. Give Eddie a bit more strong background as a troubled human being just like any average guy trying to make a living, perhaps he has a girl-friend as well and that he needs a job to take care of her. Give Eddie's character flaws like any other human, for example he would go to any lenghts to achieve what he wants. Then, Peter reveals that Eddie is a fraud, that he's willing to fake a story to make his career and thus he hates Parker for getting him fired. His girl-friend leaves him for not being a responsible man, and thats beginning of Venom. Thats just my opinion.

 

[storyteller]

Venom could have been the main villian. Anyone could be the main villian. Its simply just about writing. You make the same mistake that others make. The story can be told in millions of ways. Raimis take has venom more side then main.

 

[Venom 1988]

Venom could have been the main villian. Anyone could be the main villian. Its simply just about writing. You make the same mistake that others make. The story can be told in millions of ways. Raimis take has venom more side then main.

Exactly, anyone could be.....well except The Walrus.

 

[faceplant]

i wish people would stop comparing venom to ock. ock is a much better character.

 

[Arcturus]

Exactly, anyone could be.....well except The Walrus.

Lol, agreed.

 

[Grievous]

He is a side villain for a good reason.

A story of him being the main villain just doesn't have enough substance.

What would happen if the whole movie was just about Venom? 30 minutes of Brock getting jealous of Peter... 30 minutes of the transformation... 30 minutes of Venom terrorizing the city... 30 minutes final battle. That's just not movie material. It's not enough. It sounds too much like a good guy beats the bad guy story. Done too many times. It was already done in Spider-Man 1. People will say, oh it's exactly like what happened in the first movie, Peter struggles, tries to find himself, gets tired of being a hero, etc. etc.

It just couldn't be done.

maybe they just wanted to have more than one villain in the movie

 

[Mr Jide]

Ock potentiall is BUT i don't believe he was shown to be in the last film. Not properly. I don't think he outsmarted spidey in any shape or form, out fought him, or showed a greater intelligence (with parker making clear observations beforehand on how his work would be unstable).

No need to diss cartoon ock, in armed and dangerous, he didn't come across as childish. He was arrogant, intelligent (trying to trick parker into mentioning the wrong paper), hot tempered, highly skilled (taking spidey out with only two tentacles), having an abilty to negotiate and put pressure on his foe (while he was stuck on the electro magnet he forced spidey's hand to let him go) and was quite clearly work obessed shown by his own private research as well as his inability to see how his fusion battery could not exceed the small size (which he at least managed to do unlike the movie ock).

those are all my observations, maybe he did exaggerate some of these points and if that's what you mean by childish so be it.

Yes you're right venom is a one trick pony but he does that trick well enough to hold a single movie...


Are you trying to say that all of this couldn't fit into a film

parker finding the symbiote
parker going bad
meeting with conner
parker losing the symbiote
venom's first encounter with parker
venom going to jail
venom getting out
venom taunting parker at bugle
venom taunting aunt may
venom pushing parker too far (like when he spilt offel on him in the comics)
venom and spidey's last fight at a construction site when parker finally gives in and allows the symbiote to try and take over him


this pretty much is an almagam of venom's first 3 or four comic stories with the inclusion of some aspects of the animated beginning for simplicity.

it kinda works for a trade paperback so i think it could work for a film. True only one film but it could still fit.

also it would cover aspects not really shown before such as a villain esaping custody and getting out again to come back after spidey.

i know their 'might' need to be some minor villain in there as a reference point but it would be venom's film entirely and i believe for a one off, it coule work.


EDIT:I haven't even mentioned some of his anti-heroic behaviour that could also be exploited in the plot to show variations of how he does things to how spidey does things and the parallels and differences in their approach and thought processes.

Brilliantly said and perfectly argued. Doc Ock in the 90s animated series was a far superior character to Molina's Ock in almost every single way. As for Venom holding his own movie, of course he can. Some people act like they've never read a comic with Venom in it, especially the early stuff. It's like, the "in thing" to bash on Venom. I mean sure, he's not the best villain but lets give credit where credit is due, just like any character, if and when written well venom can be truely great. But, yeah, Odin's got it on lock.

 

[not_a_victim]

Brilliantly said and perfectly argued. Doc Ock in the 90s animated series was a far superior character to Molina's Ock in almost every single way. As for Venom holding his own movie, of course he can. Some people act like they've never read a comic with Venom in it, especially the early stuff. It's like, the "in thing" to bash on Venom. I mean sure, he's not the best villain but lets give credit where credit is due, just like any character, if and when written well venom can be truely great. But, yeah, Odin's got it on lock.

I agree. In all actuality, OTHER THAN THE MURDERS OF THE OPERATING ROOM STAFF, all Ock did was rob a bank. And actually, you could argue quite well that Ock had nothing to do with the murders, that they were the work of the robotic arms, but I digress...

Yes, he built this miniature sun out on a harbor, but he did that just to stroke his own ego, not to take over the city, or destroy it or whatever.
Stan Lee has said several times that he likes creating hereos with one major flaw. Even Osborne in the first movie was trying to build a suit to help soldiers, and give them the serum to help in battle. Ock was just trying to give people cheap energy, etc.
Now in this movie we have Sandman, and we all know why he does what he does, and just about every one of us would do the same thing in the same situation, so he's not really a bad guy....
Harry is just polluted and insane, but even he will see the error of his ways by the end of the film, so he's not really a bad guy...
Both Sandman and Harry are kinda weak characters in that aspect.
Then you have Venom, who wants NOTHING for himself or for anyone else, he just wants to kill Spiderman. To say that the ONE character in the movie franchise who wants nothing more than to kill spiderman could not carry a movie as the only bad guy is totaly wrong, in my opinion. Especially if you could focus on the dichotomy between Parker/Spiderman and Brock/Venom. The whole "that could have been me" thing would be great if done properly
Now, I am not saying that the film makers have made a mistake, or that anyone's opinion is less valid than anyone esle's, I just think it could have worked.

 

[TheVileOne]

You know, isn't the symbiote technically the main villain or antagonist of the movie? So I mean, we are still getting a lot of the Venom symbiote.

Look at the animated series. The Venom mini-series. First two episodes - Spidey dealing with the black costume and fighting other villains, Eddie Brock subplot. Third episode? Venom. Venom was only actually featured in the third episode, and I thought it was a great storyline for that show.

The point is, you don't need Venom through the entire movie to make it work. You just need to build up the problem that is the symbiote costume, as well as Eddie Brock before he ultimately becomes Venom in the third act.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Venom could easily carry his own movie, as others have mentioned, him stalking and terrorising Peter and his loved one's could easily carry two hours.

This is one reason why i'm so pissed OFF that Raimi is

Spoiler

killing off Eddie Brock!

 

[November Rain]

i don't mind,

as much as i can argue eddie having one movie, sliping into another is a bit much, with his motivations pretty much remaining the same.

he was limited to one big appearance in the cartoon with a cameo in a carnage arc but that was pretty much it.

as others have said, he is a one trick pony with only ONE really good arc to his name but any attempts to rehash it comes across a lil....repetitive...

to be fair, there aren't many spidey characters that could hold more than one film.

the only one is ock with norman after a possible ressurection but that's really it.

the ock pattern is obviously seeen if you notice he's in FOUR of like 16 arcs of ultimate spidey and the main antagonist in like THREE of them. that's a quarter of all ultimate spidey stories, pretty impressive. All the other villains seem to scrape one, norman i belive has Two to date.

and venom again only has one.

 

[not_a_victim]

Venom could easily carry his own movie, as others have mentioned, him stalking and terrorising Peter and his loved one's could easily carry two hours.

This is one reason why i'm so pissed OFF that Raimi is

Spoiler

killing off Eddie Brock!

Yeah, I agree. I really don't see the reason why Raimi would limit himself in such a way...HOWEVER...
I really don't think SMIII is the end of the franchise. They will either pay Maguire whatever he will demand for SMIV, or they will get new actors. Personally, I think Maguire's statements about not doing another movie are just like Dunst said, him just playing with the media, as he has been known to do.
I think Maguire will do at least two more movies, as the money is just too much to turn down. That, coupled with the fact that he has less and less screen time with each movie, and thus an easier pay check with each movie... I just can't see how he would not do it. I started a thread a looooong time ago, postulating the theory that for SMIII, Maguire will get more money per minute of actual screen time than any other actor ever has. I was ridiculed and flamed, but if youi really sit and think about it, I feel I am right, at least for this movie.
Let's say it is 2008, and MARVEL (since they are making their own movies since "Iron Man") says to Maguire..." We will offer you 30 Million (Not an unreasonable amount of money for the franchise) for 20 minutes of actual screen time." Maguire would be a fool not to take it. Maguire could do IV and possibly V, and retire, never to have to work again. He could buy an island like Mel Gibson did, and just drop off the face of the world. Who among us would not do the same thing?

 

[Spiderine]

You know, isn't the symbiote technically the main villain or antagonist of the movie? So I mean, we are still getting a lot of the Venom symbiote.

Look at the animated series. The Venom mini-series. First two episodes - Spidey dealing with the black costume and fighting other villains, Eddie Brock subplot. Third episode? Venom. Venom was only actually featured in the third episode, and I thought it was a great storyline for that show.

The point is, you don't need Venom through the entire movie to make it work. You just need to build up the problem that is the symbiote costume, as well as Eddie Brock before he ultimately becomes Venom in the third act.

Agreed. And as the story progressed they had to include a story that involved Carnage and Dormammu. I would think that Venom would need another villain to go along with him in the movie to make the story more interesting than seeing Venom torment and tease Peter for an entire movie.

 

[The Joker]

i wish people would stop comparing venom to ock. ock is a much better character.

I agree. In all actuality, OTHER THAN THE MURDERS OF THE OPERATING ROOM STAFF, all Ock did was rob a bank.

You must have closed your eyes for the rest of the movie after the bank heist scene. Ock also trashed a cafe, kidnapped MJ, nearly killed a train full of people, and then almost destroyed New York with his reactor of doom.

I wonder how many of the villains in SM-3 will present that kind of threat level.

Sandman?? He's just stealing for his sick kid. And if the novelization is correct, he even waits until innocent bystanders are out of the way before he makes his move.

Harry, he's just interested in killing Peter. And, we've seen his major public fight scene. No endangerment of the public there.

And then there's Venom. Like Harry, he just has one goal, to kill Spidey. And he does it in the isolated spot of the construction site.

When Norman and Otto went after their prey, they were much more dangerous to the public. Because they're the best.

 

[faceplant]

You must have closed your eyes for the rest of the movie after the bank heist scene. Ock also trashed a cafe, kidnapped MJ, nearly killed a train full of people, and then almost destroyed New York with his reactor of doom.

I wonder how many of the villains in SM-3 will present that kind of threat level.

Sandman?? He's just stealing for his sick kid. And if the novelization is correct, he even waits until innocent bystanders are out of the way before he makes his move.

Harry, he's just interested in killing Peter. And, we've seen his major public fight scene. No endangerment of the public there.

And then there's Venom. Like Harry, he just has one goal, to kill Spidey. And he does it in the isolated spot of the construction site.

When Norman and Otto went after their prey, they were much more dangerous to the public. Because they're the best.

well i'm convinced that all the venom fans had their eyes closed through both of the first movies. especially the post that said harry was there just to fill space. they must not have seen sm1 and sm2.

 

[Arcturus]

That's a pretty bold statement.

 

[XXTBWCXX]

You know, isn't the symbiote technically the main villain or antagonist of the movie? So I mean, we are still getting a lot of the Venom symbiote.

Look at the animated series. The Venom mini-series. First two episodes - Spidey dealing with the black costume and fighting other villains, Eddie Brock subplot. Third episode? Venom. Venom was only actually featured in the third episode, and I thought it was a great storyline for that show.

The point is, you don't need Venom through the entire movie to make it work. You just need to build up the problem that is the symbiote costume, as well as Eddie Brock before he ultimately becomes Venom in the third act.

I agree...the symbiote is the main villain...then Venom is...and Venom has to be, since the very last fight in the movie IS Spider-Man vs. Venom.

 

[XXTBWCXX]

maybe they just wanted to have more than one villain in the movie

Well, if you think about it...Spider-Man 3 kinda had to have three villains.

Spider-Man - Green Goblin

Spider-Man 2 - Doc Ock AND Harry Osborn (he was madly insane on trying to kill Spider-Man, and he had Doc Ock bring him to his house where he wanted to kill him and almost did until he took off his mask...and then a pre-lude to him becoming the New Goblin character)

Spider-Man 3 - New Goblin, Sandman and Venom (three villains at first to go along the villain scheme, one villain, then two, and then three since Harry turned into a whole new character with the NG...then it goes to two since Harry and Pete teams up against Venom and Sandman)

 

[Venom 1988]

This reminds when Dunsts said like what 2 years ago, about there being 2 1/2 villains. Everyone kept on thinking the symbiote was going to be the half villain(no one thought Venom would be in it). Now that I think about it, I think she meant that Harry is the half villain.

 

[Dragon]

Ock potentiall is BUT i don't believe he was shown to be in the last film. Not properly. I don't think he outsmarted spidey in any shape or form, out fought him, or showed a greater intelligence (with parker making clear observations beforehand on how his work would be unstable).

Ock beat Spidey during the train fight. Not just in physical battle, but in strategy and using your opponent's weaknesses against him. He knew Spidey would deplete his energy saving the train passengers. So that's how he defeated him. And ultimately, being the hero, Spider-Man is SUPPOSED to outfight, outthink and outlast the villain. It's his job. The Villain serves the purpose of generating the danger which the hero must overcome. Ock served that purpose bigtime.

No need to diss cartoon ock, in armed and dangerous, he didn't come across as childish.

The overall cartoon is childish. All of the cartoons were. Because they were geared toward children. There wasn't "adult" thinking in the concepts and characterization. We'd have to have a detailed discussion of the eps including plot and dialogue for me to fully elaborate oin why I feel this way.

Yes you're right venom is a one trick pony but he does that trick well enough to hold a single movie...

Not in my opinion. Venom's reasons for hating and wanting Spidey dead are silly. They don't have the intensity to drive a dramatic story.

IF Peter had truly done something to destroy Eddie's life due to his own personal failings, then Venom would be a worthy foe. IF as with the basis of the film, they explored the idea of Eddie trying to have Peter's life- having Peter's work ethic- love life, heroic responsibility- but balanced it with Eddie's extremely flawed persona (And no- not emphasizing the insanity- which is cheezy as hell; but simply that Eddie doesn't have Peter's inner strength and wisdom) he fails and then must eliminate Peter because he's the reminder to Eddie of his failure, then maybe we'd have something there. But we don't. (And BTW- this type of story could make it clear to Peter why he isn't the failure he often considers himself).

Are you trying to say that all of this couldn't fit into a film

parker finding the symbiote
parker going bad
meeting with conner
parker losing the symbiote
venom's first encounter with parker
venom going to jail
venom getting out
venom taunting parker at bugle
venom taunting aunt may
venom pushing parker too far (like when he spilt offel on him in the comics)
venom and spidey's last fight at a construction site when parker finally gives in and allows the symbiote to try and take over him

In your scenario you have Peter beating Venom the first time out. So his figuring a way to beat him again wouldn't be a problem. And taunting people? We saw the Goblin run this routine in the first film. A do-over here wouldn't help. Venom wouldn't come off as a strong villain unless he actually intended to kill May and MJ. Not merely terrorize them.

Also, your above scenario lacks any development for Peter, which is more important than Eddie's. This is Peter's story- His journey. Which is why he doesn't reject the symbiote until the end of the second act.

this pretty much is an almagam of venom's first 3 or four comic stories with the inclusion of some aspects of the animated beginning for simplicity.

it kinda works for a trade paperback so i think it could work for a film. True only one film but it could still fit.

Venom's early appearances made for interesting diversions. But never great stories, and certainly not an event worth waiting several years to see. Each spidey film thus far has been such an event.

Again, Venom with his heaping blame on Peter for something that's his own fault is dramatically lacking. Which is why Raimi wisely went for Eddie as Peter's mirror image. Venom is in fact so lacking as a character that the only way guys like Michelinie could stretch him out is by negating and weakening Peter as a character. Peter is immediately weaker than Venom in every way to give Venom the physical edge. And Peter is immediately dumber (he knows sound and fire beat the symbiote but could never figure a way to use them? ). Peter is a coward- he makes a deal to back off of Venom? NEVER. Not Peter Parker.

also it would cover aspects not really shown before such as a villain esaping custody and getting out again to come back after spidey.

But again, in your scenario Peter has already beaten Venom. So he has nothing to really fear from him, other than harm he might do to others.

And anyway- Venom really only has one battle in him- He wants NOTHING MORE than Spidey dead. So he'd realistically make his attack and not let up until one of them were dead.

i know their 'might' need to be some minor villain in there as a reference point but it would be venom's film entirely and i believe for a one off, it coule work.

There would have to be another villain- to sufficiently enrage Peter to the point of his being vulnerable to the symbiote, and then pushing him to high levels of aggression so he'd have to rid himself of it- So what would be the deal there? That villain gets no story or development just so Venom can be the main villain? That's a waste.

EDIT:I haven't even mentioned some of his anti-heroic behaviour that could also be exploited in the plot to show variations of how he does things to how spidey does things and the parallels and differences in their approach and thought processes.

What you're talking about could make for an interesting TV show, but not a big budget feature film.

Now, I'll say that the movies are a little more simplisitic in general than I'd like for them to be. But that's another discussion. Venom however just doesn't have the strength as a character to carry a film. He and consequently Carnage- are just the idea of generating a b-movie slasher with super powers.

Spidey's movie villains need to be a threat not just to Spidey, but the world at large. The Goblin was that. Ock was that. Sandman is that. Venom, by his nature is not.

 

[chaseter]

This reminds when Dunsts said like what 2 years ago, about there being 2 1/2 villains. Everyone kept on thinking the symbiote was going to be the half villain(no one thought Venom would be in it). Now that I think about it, I think she meant that Harry is the half villain.

And then Arad said 4 villians and people's crazy imaginations went wild. And the sane members were right all along...Sandman, Harry, Venom, and symbiote/Spidey.

 

[Ender Durden]

of COURSE he couldve been the main villain

despite how much i like the first 2, Raimi always manages to fill in the time with seemingly useless, or just plain boring scenes.

"Do you want some cake?"

WTF!?

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

i don't mind,

as much as i can argue eddie having one movie, sliping into another is a bit much, with his motivations pretty much remaining the same.

he was limited to one big appearance in the cartoon with a cameo in a carnage arc but that was pretty much it.

as others have said, he is a one trick pony with only ONE really good arc to his name but any attempts to rehash it comes across a lil....repetitive...

to be fair, there aren't many spidey characters that could hold more than one film.

the only one is ock with norman after a possible ressurection but that's really it.

the ock pattern is obviously seeen if you notice he's in FOUR of like 16 arcs of ultimate spidey and the main antagonist in like THREE of them. that's a quarter of all ultimate spidey stories, pretty impressive. All the other villains seem to scrape one, norman i belive has Two to date.

and venom again only has one.

Brock will have the same motivation's but in fact that's not bad. I mean Eddie Brock can want redemption on spidey for killing him as well and taking his job, etc. away. With Venom's popularity, us fan's are going to ask for Venom to return. especially after we see him in this film but even if he is not used again then it won't bother me. quite frankly because I know that his death wasn't because that Sam like's to kill off villian's which he doesn't. but because I know the reason for it will be important. Doc Ock on the other hand is most likley and actually most defenitley to return which I'm excited about because he was a very entertaining villian not only on film but in the Comic's as well. but to be completley honest, I would be more than happy to see Venom in a spidey film again for the simple fact that he is the best and all of us lkove him. though I do unfderstand that Sam has to use the classic villian's and frankly I love the classic villian's as well. as a matter of fact, we all have to remember that Sam was convinced to put Venom on film and that even though he has grown to like the character, he still is in love with the villian's from the 1960's and 1970's.

 

[dodus]

So movies can't be interesting unless one of the characters is trying to take over the world?