Venom could never have been a main villain... think about it.

[XXTBWCXX]

No, he's not. He doesn't show up until the final act of the movie. Sandman is the main villain.

He's there from start to finish, and is the focal point of Peter's anger.

ACTUALLY, the symbiote is there from start to finish even before Flint shows up.

 

[Superhero 101]

They should have saved him for four!! but i agree Venom could not be a Villain throughout the whole move. otherwise the movie would have been rushed, I mean it would also get annoying , Venom tormenting spidey, trashing the city, Tormenting, trashing, although i would have loved it if Venom pushes Peter onto a moving train like in the comics, i love how Venom torments Spidey.

 

[shigsy2003]

ACTUALLY, the symbiote is there from start to finish even before Flint shows up.

Are you talking about the Symbiote or Venom? Yes the Symbiote is there from the start but Venom doesn't show up till the final act. Eddie will also be in it a lot, so while we will see the elements that form Venom we won't see HIM till the Battle Royal.

 

[Mr Jide]

ACTUALLY, the symbiote is there from start to finish even before Flint shows up.

Actually, the symbiot isn't venom. Venom is the dual bioorganism of Brock and the symbiot So, Doc Ock was right, Venom doesn't show up until the last act of the movie.

 

[Spade]

"Actually" is a really annoying way to interject in any conversation.

 

[Arcturus]

Excellent point.

Even though there were 3 episodes, Venom was basically only in one. If you don't count the nano-second of his transformation and few words in part 2 at the end. Yet, the 3-parter was one of the best of the entire series.

What's really sad about most Venom fans is, they don't include Brock's life and interactions with Peter, JJJ, etc. as being apart of Venom. Even the cartoon realized that in order to make Venom interesting they would need to show a lot more of Eddie Brock. Most just want to see Venom beat the living crap out of Spider-Man.

ACTUALLY, that's how i've always viewed the movie version of the symbiote saga. So it's not fair to say that.

We get the alien symbiote, it's interactions and Peters turmoil, the grudge between Parker and Brock, and then finally Venom. IMO, it all flows smoothly, especially after reading the novel.

 

[Dragon]

No, he's not. He doesn't show up until the final act of the movie. Sandman is the main villain.

He's there from start to finish, and is the focal point of Peter's anger.

Right. The obvious difference between main villains as opposed to minor villains is that the minor villains (Harry, Venom) react to things. Whereas main villains (Goblin, Ock, Sandman) put things in motion.

 

[Mr Jide]

^ Good point.

 

[shigsy2003]

Right. The obvious difference between main villains as opposed to minor villains is that the minor villains (Harry, Venom) react to things. Whereas main villains (Goblin, Ock, Sandman) put things in motion.

Good point, but wouldn't Venom (using this logic) fall under main villian status? He is the one who perpetuates the team up between Venom and Sandy, which in turn starts the Battle Royal and so does Venom kidnapping MJ.

 

[Mr Jide]

that wouldn't make him a main villain just because he wants to team up.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Venom could easily have been a main villian, the nature of his character dictates that you really need two movies to flesh him out right (but I'll be interested to see how they do him with the limited time).

I've had been hoping, before we found out who the villans in SM3 would be, that they would have the Lizard and GG2 be the main villians in SM3, with Brock as only an antagonist to Peter, and slowly show the hatred for Peter and Spider-man grow in brock, and then end SM3 with a cliffhanger ending of Brock becoming Venom and Venom being the only villian in SM3.

And for those who think he couldn't hold his own movie, I find that hard to believe. I could come up with ideas right now.

I would have started off the movie with Pete thinking everything is fine, he's hooked up with MJ, the symbiote is (he thinks) dead, and so on. As Pete swings around the city and does his everyday stuff, I'd show a shadow lurking in the backround during some scenes.

Then, during a fight with two less popular villians (maybe someone like Scorpion and Rhino) show Spidey having some troubble, and have Spidey get knocked out. He awakes to find Rhino and Scoripion caught up in a web, not his own (ala TAS style) with a note reading "you're mine only."

Things like this keep happening stuff like, while Spidey's swinging, his web line's cut, he barley saves himself. Not only that, but various crimes keep happening all over the city, crimes where a vauge person resmebling Spider-man is always barley caught on tape committing the robbery. So not only does Pete know someone is stalking him, but whoever this person is, they're framing him too.

Spidey's getting pretty antsy now, Then, one night while he's out swinging, Venom finally attacks. (I'd have this 20-30mins into the movie). Spidey is stunned his Spider-sense didn't warn him, and Venom finally reveals who he is, and they have their first big throw down. Spidey basically gets his butt handed to him, and he barely gets away.

Then, the next day, while Pete is walking through a crowd, someone bumps into him and whispers (How's MJ Spidey?) When Pete turns Brock is gone. Pete rushes home, only to find MJ completley fine. Pete is extremely flustered and nervous, scared that Venom can toy with him so easily. Then the doorbell rings, Pete opens it to see Aunt may, and is then startled to see Eddie Brock walk in behind her. Brock said he bumped into her on the street, near Petes, saying he was just going to visit him, being a good friend of Peter's.

Brock tells him here that he can find Peter anywhere, and that he's going to destroy him slowly and painfully, and that if he Pete tries to involve anyone powerfull (like shield or any other superhero group) that he'll kill one of his loved ones.

The next day Pete tries to go to Harry for help (their relationship still being unresolved from the last movie.) It doesn't go well, and they end up fighting, eventually Venom makes an appearance during the fight, telling Harry to back off, that he doesn't want Pete dead yet, Venom then beats Spider-man into a bloody pulp for trying to get help as Harry watches coldly, and leaves him barley consious on the street.

Throughout all this movie I would also have Pete becoming more distant and aloof from MJ and Aunt May, until finally they have a huge argument, and Mary Jane runs out crying. Aunt May, who is angry with Pete for being so harsh on her, takes MJ away to one of her friends houses more in the country. So basically, at this point, Pete can't get any lower, and it's all because of Venom.

Finally, Venom shows up for the final showdown, all the time during the fight taunting Pete for all he's lost, telling him he enjoyed every second of tearing his life apart. Then, just when it seems Venom is going to win, Harry comes out of nowhere with a sonic gun, Blasting Venom.

*At this point we realize MJ and Aunt May hadn't really left Peter, the whole fight fight was staged to get them out of the city. The fight with Harry had been staged as well, they didn't want Venom to think they were working together. Harry had been working on a Sonic gun for Peter that he hoped would stop Venom.*

Venom would lash out at Harry just before it seems Venom will fall, and Harry is severly injured. Pete goes beserk at seeing Harry hurt, and goes nuts on Venom. Venom is weakened by the Sonic gun, but even so, he slowly begins to take advantage. Pete, realizing this, lures Venom to the launchsite of J.J's son's rocket to the moon, and the noise of the lifting shuttle finally knocks out Venom (ala TAS style).

Spidey would go back to Harry, and Harry would die in his arms a fitting end to the Goblin legacy. MJ and Aunt May would come back, and Venom would be imprisoned.

The last scene would show Brock being led into his cell, and sitting down in his bed. His cell mate would lean over to him, an evil smile on his face and say "Welcome to the Joint. Name's Cletus....Cletus Cassady."

(this doesn't mean I'd have Carnage for the next movie, I'd just think it'd be a cool ending.)

 

[shigsy2003]

that wouldn't make him a main villain just because he wants to team up.

No but he is putting things in motion as opposed to just reacting to things.

 

[The Joker]

ACTUALLY, the symbiote is there from start to finish even before Flint shows up.

The symbiote is not Venom. Eddie Brock + symbiote = Venom.

And, the symbiote is not there from the start. We've seen Spidey fight Sandman in the armoured truck without the symbiote suit.

Right. The obvious difference between main villains as opposed to minor villains is that the minor villains (Harry, Venom) react to things. Whereas main villains (Goblin, Ock, Sandman) put things in motion.

Excellent point, dude

 

[XXTBWCXX]

1.) The symbiote is the symbiote (I'm not a ****** you j-holes)
2.) The symbiote is the key villain that turns Eddie into Venom, when people think of the symbiote, they think of Venom, and don't deny it...so, whatever anyone says, Venom is the main villain.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I don't see how Venom couldn't put things in motion. In fact, unless the script writer is an idiot, it's impossible for a Villian not to put things in motion. The villian, at some point in the movie, is going to do things that will put the rest of the plot in motion, that's just basic writings skills.

In the little 3 minute write up I did above, Venom did a series of actions that put in motion the events that would bring Spidey to the lowest point he's been in in the movies (wife and aunt may gone, friend who hates him, and a crazy stalker/villian that could basically terrorize him whenever he wants).

 

[Eros]

1.) The symbiote is the symbiote (I'm not a ****** you j-holes)
2.) The symbiote is the key villain that turns Eddie into Venom, when people think of the symbiote, they think of Venom, and don't deny it...so, whatever anyone says, Venom is the main villain.

technically the symbiote is the main villian, "Venom" is simply a culmination of Peter's rejection of the symboite, and Brocks joining with the symboite to kill spider-man.

 

[The Joker]

1.) The symbiote is the symbiote (I'm not a ****** you j-holes)

Nobody said you were. No need for name calling.

2.) The symbiote is the key villain that turns Eddie into Venom, when people think of the symbiote, they think of Venom, and don't deny it...so, whatever anyone says, Venom is the main villain.

That's ridiculous logic.

Eddie Brock is Venom. Not the symbiote. The symbiote is the catalyst. The other half of Venom. Like the Goblin formula makes Norman and Harry Goblins, and the tentacles make Otto Doctor Octopus.

Of course people think of Venom when they see the symbiote. Same way as they think of Doc Ock when they see his tentacles. It's something that's affiliated with the character. Like the glider makes you think of the Goblin.

 

[Mr Jide]

No but he is putting things in motion as opposed to just reacting to things.

True but putting things in motion in the film's last act still doesn't qualify him to be a main villain.

 

[November Rain]

Ock beat Spidey during the train fight. Not just in physical battle, but in strategy and using your opponent's weaknesses against him. He knew Spidey would deplete his energy saving the train passengers. So that's how he defeated him. And ultimately, being the hero, Spider-Man is SUPPOSED to outfight, outthink and outlast the villain. It's his job. The Villain serves the purpose of generating the danger which the hero must overcome. Ock served that purpose bigtime.

first, ock beating spidey doesn't correlate with having the character outfight him. The whole essence of ock as a character is that he would be a simple character to take out if you could simply get close enough but he's highly skilled with those tentacles and brute force alone won't get you that winning opportunity. This wasn't shown in the films but even then in confrontations with spidey ock has 'always' been on the back foot having to put distance between himself and spidey because he couldn't outfight him which brings me back to my original point.

The overall cartoon is childish. All of the cartoons were. Because they were geared toward children. There wasn't "adult" thinking in the concepts and characterization. We'd have to have a detailed discussion of the eps including plot and dialogue for me to fully elaborate oin why I feel this way.

If the cartoons are childish, then one could also argue that some of the comics they are based on are also childish (when they were first created) as well as these modern films themselves. Saying one medium is more childish than another when it's all really geared towards the same audience is not really that big a point to be making. It's all relative i suppose...I dont find these films to be making any themes or perhaps making any themes better than that cartoon did, heck i feel it manages to capture subtle aspects of parker's psyche that have been left out of the filming franchise possibly because they were deemed 'too complex' for the 2d parker we see on screen.

Not in my opinion. Venom's reasons for hating and wanting Spidey dead are silly. They don't have the intensity to drive a dramatic story.

Norman wanted spidey dead because he wouldn't join his campaign of hate, It's hardly groundbreaking stuff.

Besides, with the ability to restart with a filming franchise, his methods could be potentially anything that led to dispair.

IF Peter had truly done something to destroy Eddie's life due to his own personal failings, then Venom would be a worthy foe. IF as with the basis of the film, they explored the idea of Eddie trying to have Peter's life- having Peter's work ethic- love life, heroic responsibility- but balanced it with Eddie's extremely flawed persona (And no- not emphasizing the insanity- which is cheezy as hell; but simply that Eddie doesn't have Peter's inner strength and wisdom) he fails and then must eliminate Peter because he's the reminder to Eddie of his failure, then maybe we'd have something there. But we don't. (And BTW- this type of story could make it clear to Peter why he isn't the failure he often considers himself).

the thread title is called 'Venom could never be a main villain...think about it'

yet you go to great lengths to show here how it could theoretically could be done in your eyes, i don't get it.

In your scenario you have Peter beating Venom the first time out. So his figuring a way to beat him again wouldn't be a problem. And taunting people? We saw the Goblin run this routine in the first film. A do-over here wouldn't help. Venom wouldn't come off as a strong villain unless he actually intended to kill May and MJ. Not merely terrorize them.

so? Pete beat the green goblin in their first encounter. Big deal.

Finding a way to beat venom has never been a problem, pete has known since venom's existence that sonics and fire affect it, that's not the issue.

Not necessarily, if the taunts were actuallly used to affect peter instead of a method of revenge (which is what has been used before) then it could be quite nice to actually see something like this coming across on the big screen.

Also, your above scenario lacks any development for Peter, which is more important than Eddie's. This is Peter's story- His journey. Which is why he doesn't reject the symbiote until the end of the second act.

What???

My scenarios have him evolving from going down hill with the symbiote to also managing to realise what is going on with him as well as also his relationship with eddie and his relationship with his symbiote, if this worked well in the first few viewings of venom in the comics then why would it all of a sudden not.

Funny you say that the films are about peter's journey because in this film it seems like the emphasis would be a lot more on the villains rather than peter, especially harry and eddie's evolution of character. Sometimes a hero just needs to be there while the real story is being surrounded on the villain, just like Kraven's last hunt for existence.

Venom's early appearances made for interesting diversions. But never great stories.

this is your opinion.

Again, Venom with his heaping blame on Peter for something that's his own fault is dramatically lacking. Which is why Raimi wisely went for Eddie as Peter's mirror image. Venom is in fact so lacking as a character that the only way guys like Michelinie could stretch him out is by negating and weakening Peter as a character. Peter is immediately weaker than Venom in every way to give Venom the physical edge. And Peter is immediately dumber (he knows sound and fire beat the symbiote but could never figure a way to use them? ). Peter is a coward- he makes a deal to back off of Venom? NEVER. Not Peter Parker.

I don't really know how to respond to this...

But again, in your scenario Peter has already beaten Venom. So he has nothing to really fear from him, other than harm he might do to others.

Again, this could be said by peter's confrontations with the goblin.

besides, you don't know what potential factors made their first confrontation a victory for peter, perhaps the same circumstances won't be able to be repeated thus making their next combats more challenging.

obtaining one victory doesn't make the threat any less dangerous.

And anyway- Venom really only has one battle in him- He wants NOTHING MORE than Spidey dead. So he'd realistically make his attack and not let up until one of them were dead.

not necessarily, Just as eddie may have found himself broken and left with nothing and the symbiote was left rejected, they may want to make peter feel the same way by either breaking his reputation as spiderman or/and also peter parker.

and then when he has nothing, he will go for the final blow. That's easily something that could be overcome with a decent writer.

There would have to be another villain- to sufficiently enrage Peter to the point of his being vulnerable to the symbiote, and then pushing him to high levels of aggression so he'd have to rid himself of it- So what would be the deal there? That villain gets no story or development just so Venom can be the main villain? That's a waste.

well in the ultimate arc, you see the only thing that is required to get a sufficient rage from parker is one single killer whom the symbiote then makes him believe is his uncle's killer and i think it gets the point across of the symbiote's influence very clearly and very easily without the necessity of an outside villain.

of course if this venom film was somewhere down the line, then a cameo appearance of a villain used in an earlier film would also manage to get this point across without the need for a heavy build up or plenty of time dedicated to character development.

What you're talking about could make for an interesting TV show, but not a big budget feature film.

Now, I'll say that the movies are a little more simplisitic in general than I'd like for them to be. But that's another discussion. Venom however just doesn't have the strength as a character to carry a film. He and consequently Carnage- are just the idea of generating a b-movie slasher with super powers.

Spidey's movie villains need to be a threat not just to Spidey, but the world at large. The Goblin was that. Ock was that. Sandman is that. Venom, by his nature is not.

Now i would understand about carnage but i feel (although i do not like the character) that the two comic universes have shown that he does have sufficient reason to carry a film IF the film also includes peter's journey with the symbiote

 

[November Rain]

That's ridiculous logic.

Eddie Brock is Venom. Not the symbiote. The symbiote is the catalyst. The other half of Venom. Like the Goblin formula makes Norman and Harry Goblins, and the tentacles make Otto Doctor Octopus.

Of course people think of Venom when they see the symbiote. Same way as they think of Doc Ock when they see his tentacles. It's something that's affiliated with the character. Like the glider makes you think of the Goblin.

the symbiote is known as the 'venom' symbiote though.

i know realistically each time it bonds with someone, it should form a new identity since it is the almagam that makes the character, but it has bonded with at least three people who have all gone by the name of venom.

this subject matter is one tricky fish

 

[Mr Jide]

first, ock beating spidey doesn't correlate with having the character outfight him. The whole essence of ock as a character is that he would be a simple character to take out if you could simply get close enough but he's highly skilled with those tentacles and brute force alone won't get you that winning opportunity. This wasn't shown in the films but even then in confrontations with spidey ock has 'always' been on the back foot having to put distance between himself and spidey because he couldn't outfight him which brings me back to my original point.



If the cartoons are childish, then one could also argue that some of the comics they are based on are also childish (when they were first created) as well as these modern films themselves. Saying one medium is more childish than another when it's all really geared towards the same audience is not really that big a point to be making. It's all relative i suppose...I dont find these films to be making any themes or perhaps making any themes better than that cartoon did, heck i feel it manages to capture subtle aspects of parker's psyche that have been left out of the filming franchise possibly because they were deemed 'too complex' for the 2d parker we see on screen.



Norman wanted spidey dead because he wouldn't join his campaign of hate, It's hardly groundbreaking stuff.

Besides, with the ability to restart with a filming franchise, his methods could be potentially anything that led to dispair.


the thread title is called 'Venom could never be a main villain...think about it'

yet you go to great lengths to show here how it could theoretically could be done in your eyes, i don't get it.




so? Pete beat the green goblin in their first encounter. Big deal.

Finding a way to beat venom has never been a problem, pete has known since venom's existence that sonics and fire affect it, that's not the issue.

Not necessarily, if the taunts were actuallly used to affect peter instead of a method of revenge (which is what has been used before) then it could be quite nice to actually see something like this coming across on the big screen.

What???

My scenarios have him evolving from going down hill with the symbiote to also managing to realise what is going on with him as well as also his relationship with eddie and his relationship with his symbiote, if this worked well in the first few viewings of venom in the comics then why would it all of a sudden not.

Funny you say that the films are about peter's journey because in this film it seems like the emphasis would be a lot more on the villains rather than peter, especially harry and eddie's evolution of character. Sometimes a hero just needs to be there while the real story is being surrounded on the villain, just like Kraven's last hunt for existence.


this is your opinion.



I don't really know how to respond to this...


Again, this could be said by peter's confrontations with the goblin.

besides, you don't know what potential factors made their first confrontation a victory for peter, perhaps the same circumstances won't be able to be repeated thus making their next combats more challenging.

obtaining one victory doesn't make the threat any less dangerous.


not necessarily, Just as eddie may have found himself broken and left with nothing and the symbiote was left rejected, they may want to make peter feel the same way by either breaking his reputation as spiderman or/and also peter parker.

and then when he has nothing, he will go for the final blow. That's easily something that could be overcome with a decent writer.


well in the ultimate arc, you see the only thing that is required to get a sufficient rage from parker is one single killer whom the symbiote then makes him believe is his uncle's killer and i think it gets the point across of the symbiote's influence very clearly and very easily without the necessity of an outside villain.

of course if this venom film was somewhere down the line, then a cameo appearance of a villain used in an earlier film would also manage to get this point across without the need for a heavy build up or plenty of time dedicated to character development.



What you're talking about could make for an interesting TV show, but not a big budget feature film.

Now, I'll say that the movies are a little more simplisitic in general than I'd like for them to be. But that's another discussion. Venom however just doesn't have the strength as a character to carry a film. He and consequently Carnage- are just the idea of generating a b-movie slasher with super powers.

Spidey's movie villains need to be a threat not just to Spidey, but the world at large. The Goblin was that. Ock was that. Sandman is that. Venom, by his nature is not.
Now i would understand about carnage but i feel (although i do not like the character) that the two comic universes have shown that he does have sufficient reason to carry a film IF the film also includes peter's journey with the symbiote

Good points, Nov

 

[Spidey Lover 10]

He is a side villain for a good reason.

A story of him being the main villain just doesn't have enough substance.

What would happen if the whole movie was just about Venom? 30 minutes of Brock getting jealous of Peter... 30 minutes of the transformation... 30 minutes of Venom terrorizing the city... 30 minutes final battle. That's just not movie material. It's not enough. It sounds too much like a good guy beats the bad guy story. Done too many times. It was already done in Spider-Man 1. People will say, oh it's exactly like what happened in the first movie, Peter struggles, tries to find himself, gets tired of being a hero, etc. etc.

It just couldn't be done.

i understand this. I just wanna see Venom KICK SPIDEY'S ASS, FOR A CHANGE!!!!!t:

 

[Dragon]

first, ock beating spidey doesn't correlate with having the character outfight him...

In the comics (or at least the well written ones) Spidey would often be getting the better of Ock when Ock would resort to similar strategies as with the film. For example ASM #89, when to wear Spidey down, Ock topples a water tower endangering the bystanders below. Spidey stops the tower's fall with his body. In ASM #12 Ock released zoo animals to endanger bystanders. In the Master Planner and Nullifier story arcs, Ock used his gang to soften Spidey up.

Again "beating" someone is about more than out-muscling them. Ock is first and foremost a thinking man. For him, outsmarting Spidey is equal if not greater than merely beating him up. This is also why he's a master criminal who you can easily build an entire film around.

If the cartoons are childish...

Again, we'd have to go over an actual cartoon for you to understand what I mean. I'm certainly not saying the cartoon MEDIUM is childish. Storytelling is the same regardless of the medium. I'm saying that as I watched the 90's cartoon, what turned me off of it was inferior (I'll substitute this for childish) writing. The same thing was going on in the comics at that point.

And I agree that movie Peter is simplified more than he should be. For example, In the comics, even after Gwen's death he never chose to eliminate the possibility of love in his life due to his life as Spider-Man. But- what the movies have at least done is strived to give real, dramatic motivations to the characters that are logical given their circumstances. All I can say is in general with the cartoons, that I'd get turned off by the "cartoony" writing and have to flip channels. And the MTV "adult" one was worse. MJ sees two people decapitated and is nearly killed herself, then jokes with Spidey and goes trapsing off as if nothing happened. CRAP.

Norman wanted spidey dead because he wouldn't join his campaign of hate, It's hardly groundbreaking stuff.

Nothing is "groundbreaking". Especially in cops and robbers type stories. BUT- it was a logical and reasonable concept. And- it was a shift from Osborn merely deciding to kill Spidey. No question- all of these Spidey films have had some bad plotholes and so forth (How easy would it be to know who the Goblin is? A place like Oscorp would have security monitoring that could tell who was in the lab when Stromm was killed). But they have enough strong points to make them worth the while.

Besides, with the ability to restart with a filming franchise, his methods could be potentially anything that led to dispair.

Anything can happen "potentially". But we're talking about the character at hand. Why does Venom deserve so much attention? Even better stories could have been told with second appearances by the Goblin or Ock.

the thread title is called 'Venom could never be a main villain...think about it'

yet you go to great lengths to show here how it could theoretically could be done in your eyes, i don't get it.

I look at it this way- there is no character that is inherently bad. Only the writing is bad. So I was giving examples of how Venom, the comic book character could have been developed so we'd have an interesting character on the movie screen. But that's not what we have in reality- in reality we have an idiot who wants to kill Spidey for indirectly making him lose his job (At least in the film Peter has a direct hand in it), uses dialogue about eating brains and refers to himself in the plural. As I mentioned in another post, it would take two films to get Venom to main villain status. And frankly the character simply isn't worth it, IMO. The fans who really crave seeing him are for the most part thinking of the vicseral things. A tough, scary customer who gives Spidey hell. Not enough to build a full two hours on.

so? Pete beat the green goblin in their first encounter. Big deal.

He didn't beat him- only stalled him. You described Peter as sending Venom to jail.

Finding a way to beat venom has never been a problem, pete has known since venom's existence that sonics and fire affect it, that's not the issue.

Apparently it is, (At least for the writers) since Venom's first appearance is about the only one when Peter stops him cold. Having Venom "feared" by Peter was the only way to make Venom a major player. And, as I said, this involved dumbing Peter down severely and making him a *****. Not necessary with the likes of Ock and the Goblin.

In the movies, Sam was smart enough to see through this cheezifying effect and placed Venom where he belonged- riding shotgun to Sandman.

Not necessarily, if the taunts were actuallly used to affect peter instead of a method of revenge (which is what has been used before) then it could be quite nice to actually see something like this coming across on the big screen.

But you see, it shouldn't have happened in the comics either. When Venom came along, Peter was an experienced superhero, who'd been to the edges of the universe and back. He shouldn't have been as easily shaken. That's why I say Peter was weakened as a character to make Venom stronger.

On the big screen, on a film that would take several years to produce, this just isn't enough. As I mentioned with the Harry fight, Sam is into Peter PROGRESSING (Something the comic folks can't seem to get). He actually gets stronger and smarter with each film. That's we need 3 villains to challenge him. When Venom appears in the comics, Peter shouldn't or wouldn't be thinking "I'm afraid of him. He's going to kill me-" He'd be thinking- "okay... no spider sense, he's stronger than me (No way he should be faster..) how can I stop him?"

What???

My scenarios have him evolving from going down hill with the symbiote to also managing to realise what is going on with him as well as also his relationship with eddie and his relationship with his symbiote, if this worked well in the first few viewings of venom in the comics then why would it all of a sudden not.

First off, you're giving Peter about 10 minutes of development with the symbiote, then it's all Eddie. Secondly- you're still making the focus of the story from Eddie's perspective. Peter's story needs to be about him ONLY. Eddie is a supporting character. What you're talking about is Peter's story being a side note. You're obviously a very clever person, but your concept favors Venom over Peter.

Funny you say that the films are about peter's journey because in this film it seems like the emphasis would be a lot more on the villains rather than peter, especially harry and eddie's evolution of character.

But we know from the novelization this isn't the case. The story (As it should be) focuses on Peter's experience and the villains are merely accelerants. Yes, they get character development as well (also as it should be). But Peter is the main focus.

Sometimes a hero just needs to be there while the real story is being surrounded on the villain, just like Kraven's last hunt for existence.

No it doesn't. You just in fact described one of my biggest problems with KLH. It should have been told from Peter's POV. But moreover- it can't happen that way in a feature film. That's one of the big reasons why the Batman films went downhill. It's certainly EASIER to shift the focus to the crazy guy causing all the mayhem. But not better. The main character should be the main focus. You can shift the focus on TV and in comics, but not films.

this is your opinion.

True.

I don't really know how to respond to this...

As I've been saying- a strong villain is about how he challenges the hero to be BETTER. This was never the case with Venom. It falls inline with Marvel policy at that point developed by then EIC Jim Shooter. Basically he wanted to sell more comics. So he came up with the edict "A hero is only as good as his villains". So he basically had the writers merely stretch out the stories by making them unwinnable for the heroes (Spidey in particular). The writers however chose the laziest of approaches and made the heroes weaker and dumber. This means a two part story can drag out to six parts and the money rolls in.

Again, this could be said by peter's confrontations with the goblin.

Exactly. Which means it's been done.. Let's do something different.

besides, you don't know what potential factors made their first confrontation a victory for peter, perhaps the same circumstances won't be able to be repeated thus making their next combats more challenging.

obtaining one victory doesn't make the threat any less dangerous.

The point is, Venom is a loser out of the gate. This makes for very bad pacing and no dramatic edge. I'm not for the crappy way that Venom was built up in the comics- but he should be a threat- seemingly unstoppable up until Spidey actually figures out how to beat him.

not necessarily, Just as eddie may have found himself broken and left with nothing and the symbiote was left rejected, they may want to make peter feel the same way by either breaking his reputation as spiderman or/and also peter parker.

and then when he has nothing, he will go for the final blow. That's easily something that could be overcome with a decent writer.

That's "comic booky" writing. 'Let's drag this out as much as possible by having the villain made numerous attacks.'

No. Let's get into the villain's head and feel what he's feeling. He wants the one who causes him pain, who he believes ruined his life- GONE. If he attacks and has the adrenaline rush pumping- he sees his foe weakened- he's not going to let up until it's over. It's like sex with no orgasm. Eddie takes things too far- That's why he's a criminal. He's a victim of his compulsions.

well in the ultimate arc, you see the only thing that is required to get a sufficient rage from parker is one single killer whom the symbiote then makes him believe is his uncle's killer and i think it gets the point across of the symbiote's influence very clearly and very easily without the necessity of an outside villain.

Yeah, that's why the Ultimate line sucks, IMO.

First off, Peter being driven by the symbiote's hallucinations is a BAD IDEA, and I got a big laugh at it everytime fans were bringing that up here regarding Sandman. Only comic fans would find something like that satisfying, because they're used to settling for that type of comic booky writing. For the real world- only taking Peter TRULY to the edge- by making Ben's killer REAL- and then worse- making him superhuman and thus hard to beat- would take mild-mannered, self-sacrificing, Peter Parker to the dark place he needed to be in this story. And this is also the only way for him to achieve redemption by learning to forgive THE REAL KILLER.

of course if this venom film was somewhere down the line, then a cameo appearance of a villain used in an earlier film would also manage to get this point across without the need for a heavy build up or plenty of time dedicated to character development.

Again- not enough. Only an all-out war-like campaign between Peter and this villain would be enough to drive Peter (As opposed to some like Wolverine) to the extreme he needed to reach for this concept to work. And you're still talking about shortchanging the other villain so Venom can shine.

 

[shigsy2003]

True but putting things in motion in the film's last act still doesn't qualify him to be a main villain.

I am not trying to make him one. I am purely saying that using this logic of villians who put things in motion as opposed to react things, Venom would have to fall under the 'puts things in motion' and would therefore be classed as a main villian. He isn't a main a villain, but I don't think I could call him a minor villian either, he is not like the Shocker or someone who doesn't pose much of a threat, he batters Spidey around like a fish (batters, fish...geddit...cough) and makes the battle royal possible, lest we forget he kills Harry. I know we are only going to see him for around 15 minutes but he does an awful lot in these 15 minutes to be classed as a throw away minor villian. But he isn't really in it long enough to be a called a major villian. I know I am going of screen time but this also seems to the way people discern major from minor.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I am not trying to make him one. I am purely saying that using this logic of villians who put things in motion as opposed to react things, Venom would have to fall under the 'puts things in motion' and would therefore be classed as a main villian. He isn't a main a villain, but I don't think I could call him a minor villian either, he is not like the Shocker or someone who doesn't pose much of a threat, he batters Spidey around like a fish (batters, fish...geddit...cough) and makes the battle royal possible, lest we forget he kills Harry. I know we are only going to see him for around 15 minutes but he does an awful lot in these 15 minutes to be classed as a throw away minor villian. But he isn't really in it long enough to be a called a major villian. I know I am going of screen time but this also seems to the way people discern major from minor.

which is why Venom is an important villian even though his screen time is less than the other villian's. Sandman is a major Villian in this film, Venom isn't but what he doe's in the battle royal and frankly what Eddie Brock's story is, is leading up to Venom makig him defenitley not a minor villian. and we all know that a villian can't be a minor villian if he is damn near killing spidey or atleast knocking him out a few time's. personally, I believe 15 minute's of scren time is just "time". there is so many thing's you can do in 15 minute's as well. not to mention that the base of Venom in this film is revenge and hatred for spidey himself for what he has done to Brock. hell if there wasn't any connection between Peter and Sandman then Venom would be unquestionably a major and a main villian for that metter but yes I am very happy that Sandman is the major villian of the film. so overall Venom is not a major or minor villian in this film, but yet he's a very important one that is needed for this storyline even though he is only in the film for the last 15 minute's.