In the comics (or at least the well written ones) Spidey would often be getting the better of Ock when Ock would resort to similar strategies as with the film. For example ASM #89, when to wear Spidey down, Ock topples a water tower endangering the bystanders below. Spidey stops the tower's fall with his body. In ASM #12 Ock released zoo animals to endanger bystanders. In the Master Planner and Nullifier story arcs, Ock used his gang to soften Spidey up.
Again "beating" someone is about more than out-muscling them. Ock is first and foremost a thinking man. For him, outsmarting Spidey is equal if not greater than merely beating him up. This is also why he's a master criminal who you can easily build an entire film around.
Again, we'd have to go over an actual cartoon for you to understand what I mean. I'm certainly not saying the cartoon MEDIUM is childish. Storytelling is the same regardless of the medium. I'm saying that as I watched the 90's cartoon, what turned me off of it was inferior (I'll substitute this for childish) writing. The same thing was going on in the comics at that point.
And I agree that movie Peter is simplified more than he should be. For example, In the comics, even after Gwen's death he never chose to eliminate the possibility of love in his life due to his life as Spider-Man. But- what the movies have at least done is strived to give real, dramatic motivations to the characters that are logical given their circumstances. All I can say is in general with the cartoons, that I'd get turned off by the "cartoony" writing and have to flip channels. And the MTV "adult" one was worse. MJ sees two people decapitated and is nearly killed herself, then jokes with Spidey and goes trapsing off as if nothing happened. CRAP.
Nothing is "groundbreaking". Especially in cops and robbers type stories. BUT- it was a logical and reasonable concept. And- it was a shift from Osborn merely deciding to kill Spidey. No question- all of these Spidey films have had some bad plotholes and so forth (How easy would it be to know who the Goblin is? A place like Oscorp would have security monitoring that could tell who was in the lab when Stromm was killed). But they have enough strong points to make them worth the while.
Anything can happen "potentially". But we're talking about the character at hand. Why does Venom deserve so much attention? Even better stories could have been told with second appearances by the Goblin or Ock.
I look at it this way- there is no character that is inherently bad. Only the writing is bad. So I was giving examples of how Venom, the comic book character could have been developed so we'd have an interesting character on the movie screen. But that's not what we have in reality- in reality we have an idiot who wants to kill Spidey for indirectly making him lose his job (At least in the film Peter has a direct hand in it), uses dialogue about eating brains and refers to himself in the plural. As I mentioned in another post, it would take two films to get Venom to main villain status. And frankly the character simply isn't worth it, IMO. The fans who really crave seeing him are for the most part thinking of the vicseral things. A tough, scary customer who gives Spidey hell. Not enough to build a full two hours on.
He didn't beat him- only stalled him. You described Peter as sending Venom to jail.
Apparently it is, (At least for the writers) since Venom's first appearance is about the only one when Peter stops him cold. Having Venom "feared" by Peter was the only way to make Venom a major player. And, as I said, this involved dumbing Peter down severely and making him a *****. Not necessary with the likes of Ock and the Goblin.
In the movies, Sam was smart enough to see through this cheezifying effect and placed Venom where he belonged- riding shotgun to Sandman.
But you see, it shouldn't have happened in the comics either. When Venom came along, Peter was an experienced superhero, who'd been to the edges of the universe and back. He shouldn't have been as easily shaken. That's why I say Peter was weakened as a character to make Venom stronger.
On the big screen, on a film that would take several years to produce, this just isn't enough. As I mentioned with the Harry fight, Sam is into Peter PROGRESSING (Something the comic folks can't seem to get). He actually gets stronger and smarter with each film. That's we need 3 villains to challenge him. When Venom appears in the comics, Peter shouldn't or wouldn't be thinking "I'm afraid of him. He's going to kill me-" He'd be thinking- "okay... no spider sense, he's stronger than me (No way he should be faster..) how can I stop him?"
First off, you're giving Peter about 10 minutes of development with the symbiote, then it's all Eddie. Secondly- you're still making the focus of the story from Eddie's perspective. Peter's story needs to be about him ONLY. Eddie is a supporting character. What you're talking about is Peter's story being a side note. You're obviously a very clever person, but your concept favors Venom over Peter.
But we know from the novelization this isn't the case. The story (As it should be) focuses on Peter's experience and the villains are merely accelerants. Yes, they get character development as well (also as it should be). But Peter is the main focus.
No it doesn't. You just in fact described one of my biggest problems with KLH. It should have been told from Peter's POV. But moreover- it can't happen that way in a feature film. That's one of the big reasons why the Batman films went downhill. It's certainly EASIER to shift the focus to the crazy guy causing all the mayhem. But not better. The main character should be the main focus. You can shift the focus on TV and in comics, but not films.
True.
As I've been saying- a strong villain is about how he challenges the hero to be BETTER. This was never the case with Venom. It falls inline with Marvel policy at that point developed by then EIC Jim Shooter. Basically he wanted to sell more comics. So he came up with the edict "A hero is only as good as his villains". So he basically had the writers merely stretch out the stories by making them unwinnable for the heroes (Spidey in particular). The writers however chose the laziest of approaches and made the heroes weaker and dumber. This means a two part story can drag out to six parts and the money rolls in.
Exactly. Which means it's been done.. Let's do something different.
The point is, Venom is a loser out of the gate. This makes for very bad pacing and no dramatic edge. I'm not for the crappy way that Venom was built up in the comics- but he should be a threat- seemingly unstoppable up until Spidey actually figures out how to beat him.
That's "comic booky" writing. 'Let's drag this out as much as possible by having the villain made numerous attacks.'
No. Let's get into the villain's head and feel what he's feeling. He wants the one who causes him pain, who he believes ruined his life- GONE. If he attacks and has the adrenaline rush pumping- he sees his foe weakened- he's not going to let up until it's over. It's like sex with no orgasm. Eddie takes things too far- That's why he's a criminal. He's a victim of his compulsions.
Yeah, that's why the Ultimate line sucks, IMO.
First off, Peter being driven by the symbiote's hallucinations is a BAD IDEA, and I got a big laugh at it everytime fans were bringing that up here regarding Sandman. Only comic fans would find something like that satisfying, because they're used to settling for that type of comic booky writing. For the real world- only taking Peter TRULY to the edge- by making Ben's killer REAL- and then worse- making him superhuman and thus hard to beat- would take mild-mannered, self-sacrificing, Peter Parker to the dark place he needed to be in this story. And this is also the only way for him to achieve redemption by learning to forgive THE REAL KILLER.
Again- not enough. Only an all-out war-like campaign between Peter and this villain would be enough to drive Peter (As opposed to some like Wolverine) to the extreme he needed to reach for this concept to work. And you're still talking about shortchanging the other villain so Venom can shine.
