Superman Returns Was it really THAT bad?

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Superman to Dead Lois Lane: Do you want to stay dead or do you want me to reverse time and save your life?

Don't be ridiculous.

I'm not being ridiculous, i'm saying he resurrected her for his own selfish reasons, despite being advised not to by his father.

The situations are apples and oranges. By turning back time and saving Lois's life hurting her is not a side effect of the event.

Actually, he did tell Lois that he was going to give up his powers for her and she never says 'Don't do it,' or anything. She's just surprised that he would do that for her.

He tells her AFTER he de-powers himself, he doesnt consult her or ask for her feelings on the matter, he just does it because its what HE wants.

 

[mego joe]

I'm not being ridiculous, i'm saying he resurrected her for his own selfish reasons, despite being advised not to by his father.

Saving the life of the person you love is not wholly selfish. It's a completely different situation than what is presented in SR. In SR he considers his own feelings INSTEAD of Lois's feelings. In S:TM, Lois is dead and has no ability to state her feelings, but it's a no brainer- no one wants to be dead.

And why do you think it was wrong for him to defy Jor-El in this situation?

He tells her AFTER he de-powers himself, he doesnt consult her or ask for her feelings on the matter, he just does it because its what HE wants.

Seems she was pretty happy about it to me. Do you think she would have stopped him?

The fact is he's considering Lois's best interests in S:TM and SII when he does these things, when he doesn't say goodbye in SR admittedly acting on what is easier for him to do and he isn't acting in Lois's best interests- he's not acting in the best interests of the woman he loves. SR is the complete opposite of S:TM and SII.

 

[SuperDaniel]

Just because Superman was written bad or controversially in the previous movies, it didnt mean that SR had to have the same. They had the chance to write them better and improve the character. No. They actually ****ed up even more.

 

[GarudA]

Just because Superman was written bad or controversially in the previous movies, it didnt mean that SR had to have the same. They had the chance to write them better and improve the character. No. They actually ****ed up even more.

SR lovers like to refer to the Previous Superman movies with its flaws. Like you said that did not need to be the case with SR. One would think they would of watched previous movies and try to avoid faults and problems.

 

[superbaby]

Just because Superman was written bad or controversially in the previous movies, it didnt mean that SR had to have the same. They had the chance to write them better and improve the character. No. They actually ****ed up even more.

well, they just love to see superman getting ****ed up. so?

 

[mego joe]

SR lovers like to refer to the Previous Superman movies with its flaws. Like you said that did not need to be the case with SR. One would think they would of watched previous movies and try to avoid faults and problems.

Unfortunately, SInger doesn't understand the character well enought to be able to identify the flaws from the previous films.

 

[Super Kal]

I don't think Singer EVER will understand it... he was and still is too stuck in his love for the Donner movies

 

[El Payaso]

SR lovers like to refer to the Previous Superman movies with its flaws.

Being SR a sequel to them it's more than appropiate to do so and not very consistent to ignore the natural background on purpose.

Like you said that did not need to be the case with SR.

Being the sequel, it doesn't have to be necessarily the same as it doesn't have NOT to be necessarily. But it's quite consistent to deal with the same chracater's vision when you're doing a sequel.

One would think they would of watched previous movies and try to avoid faults and problems.

They have avoided flaws of the movie storytelling but not the character's internal flaws.

For example, they are not doing those last minute lame time-reversing and amnesia kisses anymore. They're not doing the "I put Lois over humanity" Superman kind of thought. But they're keeping Superman's flaws as a character. Like abandoning humanity for other priorities. Or not saying good-bye to Lois as he wasn't honest about deleting her memory.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Saving the life of the person you love is not wholly selfish. It's a completely different situation than what is presented in SR. In SR he considers his own feelings INSTEAD of Lois's feelings. In S:TM, Lois is dead and has no ability to state her feelings, but it's a no brainer- no one wants to be dead.

And why do you think it was wrong for him to defy Jor-El in this situation?

Because by reversing time, he not only altered the course of history, something he doesnt have the right to do, he isnt God, but he also puts everyone he saved instead of Lois back in danger just to so he can have a chance to try and go on a date with her, to me, its wrong on both levels.

Seems she was pretty happy about it to me. Do you think she would have stopped him?

The fact is he's considering Lois's best interests in S:TM and SII when he does these things, when he doesn't say goodbye in SR admittedly acting on what is easier for him to do and he isn't acting in Lois's best interests- he's not acting in the best interests of the woman he loves. SR is the complete opposite of S:TM and SII.

She was happy until she realised what it meant, later in the movie, she looks delighted that he got his powers back at first. And whether she seems happy or not, he fact remains Superman didnt consult her about it.

They have avoided flaws of the movie storytelling but not the character's internal flaws.

For example, they are not doing those last minute lame time-reversing and amnesia kisses anymore. They're not doing the "I put Lois over humanity" Superman kind of thought. But they're keeping Superman's flaws as a character. Like abandoning humanity for other priorities. Or not saying good-bye to Lois as he wasn't honest about deleting her memory.

Spot on El Payaso, at least this Superman took responsibility for and apologised for his actions, rather than taking the easy way out and just erasing the problem.

 

[mego joe]

Because by reversing time, he not only altered the course of history, something he doesnt have the right to do, he isnt God, but he also puts everyone he saved instead of Lois back in danger just to so he can have a chance to try and go on a date with her, to me, its wrong on both levels.

By reversing time he saved EVERYONE, not just Lois. So he saved Lois and everyone and endangered no one.

She was happy until she realised what it meant, later in the movie, she looks delighted that he got his powers back at first. And whether she seems happy or not, he fact remains Superman didnt consult her about it.

The difference in the situation is that Superman's power's are his to do with as he wishes. Once he and Lois were in a sexual relationship he is obligated to her. It's that simple and hugely different.

Spot on El Payaso, at least this Superman took responsibility for and apologised for his actions, rather than taking the easy way out and just erasing the problem.

Erasing the problem or making it never exist is a perfect way of fixining it. It may be lazy writing but it is not grossly out of character like the way he's portrayed in SR as a deadbeat. If you understand the character you understand there is no way he would ever act as he's acted in the backstory to SR. Not in the comics, not in any incarnation. Period. If you can't see that, you can't see that. Nothing more I can do about it.

 

[El Payaso]

By reversing time he saved EVERYONE, not just Lois. So he saved Lois and everyone and endangered no one.

If that was his intention he could have reversed time befote Luthor put the Kryptonite around his neck. Saving evceryone was a side benefit.

The difference in the situation is that Superman's power's are his to do with as he wishes. Once he and Lois were in a sexual relationship he is obligated to her. It's that simple and hugely different.

Obligated until a bigger priority butts in. Then everything’s allowed, since breaking u oto manipulate her mind without her permission, taking away her right to remember who has she been commited to and in a sexual relationship with.

Erasing the problem or making it never exist is a perfect way of fixining it.

What’s better than “let’s close ourveyes and pretend it never happened ok?”

It’s heroic, consecuent and talk volumes about someone who’s able and man enough to live with the consequence of his actions.

It may be lazy writing

What do you mean? That it’s not actually “perfect way” to fix something?

but it is not grossly out of character like the way he's portrayed in SR as a deadbeat.

That’s because he’s NOT portrayed as a deadbeat. He didn’t know she was pregnant and as a matter of Fac. SHE didn’t know either.

That said, a mind-manipulator, a quitter also sounds a lot as out of character.

If you understand the character you understand there is no way he would ever act as he's acted in the backstory to SR.

Or Superman II.

Not in the comics, not in any incarnation.

Apparently there’s actually a way to portray him as a mind-manipulator or a father, much to your grief.

Period.

I think the discussion and the diversity of opinions and is still quite open.

If you can't see that, you can't see that.

At least that sounds consistent.

Nothing more I can do about it.

Accepting different opinions, admitting that the absolute truth might not be entirely in your posession. That might work, and I still encourage you to it.

 

[mego joe]

If that was his intention he could have reversed time befote Luthor put the Kryptonite around his neck. Saving evceryone was a side benefit.



Obligated until a bigger priority butts in. Then everything’s allowed, since breaking u oto manipulate her mind without her permission, taking away her right to remember who has she been commited to and in a sexual relationship with.



What’s better than “let’s close ourveyes and pretend it never happened ok?”

It’s heroic, consecuent and talk volumes about someone who’s able and man enough to live with the consequence of his actions.



What do you mean? That it’s not actually “perfect way” to fix something?



That’s because he’s NOT portrayed as a deadbeat. He didn’t know she was pregnant and as a matter of Fac. SHE didn’t know either.

That said, a mind-manipulator, a quitter also sounds a lot as out of character.



Or Superman II.



Apparently there’s actually a way to portray him as a mind-manipulator or a father, much to your grief.



I think the discussion and the diversity of opinions and is still quite open.



At least that sounds consistent.



Accepting different opinions, admitting that the absolute truth might not be entirely in your posession. That might work, and I still encourage you to it.

While there are a diversity of opinions, and they should all be respected, but it doesn't mean that they are all right.

While conversation and discussion will continue, I don't believe anyone is going to change anyone else's opinion. If someone doesn't understand the character and cannot see that Superman is a deadbeat in SR, then he's not going to change his world view by further discussion.

 

[El Payaso]

While there are a diversity of opinions, and they should all be respected, but it doesn't mean that they are all right.

While it doesn't mean that they are all right, two of them that doesn’t agree can be right at the same time.

While conversation and discussion will continue, I don't believe anyone is going to change anyone else's opinion.

While no one is going to change anyone else's opinion, everyone – including you and me – will keep posting. My point? It’s useless and unrealistic to say “period” in this place, in this discussion.

If someone doesn't understand the character and cannot see that Superman is a deadbeat in SR, then he's not going to change his world view by further discussion.

To the dictionary:

deadbeat (PERSON) Show phonetics
noun [C] MAINLY US INFORMAL
a person who is not willing to work, does not behave in a responsible way and does not fit into ordinary society:
He's a real deadbeat who's never had a proper job.
[as form of address] Come off it, deadbeat, you're never going to get anywhere.

deadbeat (IN DEBT) Show phonetics
adjective [before noun], noun [C] MAINLY US INFORMAL
(a person or company) not willing to pay debts:
The new law is aimed at deadbeat landlords who owe $22 million.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=19860&dict=CALD
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=19861&dict=CALD

It’s arguable if you understand this vision of the character yourself. But it looks more obvious that you don’t get the meaning of the word “deadbeat.” He might have made a mistake with Lois (not saying good-bye to her) but it is far from being deadbeat.

If Superman would have said good-bye, he stilll would have been away for 5 years since when he left neither him or Lois knew about her pregnancy.

As soon as he knew Jason was his son, he went there and told Lois he was going to be near them. Given that Lois herself didn’t know that Jason was Superman’s she’d be as deadbeat as him about his own son.

Once again Superman has a history of episodic deadbeatism when he quit his mission and left Earth defensless against Zod and co.

 

[mego joe]

While it doesn't mean that they are all right, two of them that doesn’t agree can be right at the same time.



While no one is going to change anyone else's opinion, everyone – including you and me – will keep posting. My point? It’s useless and unrealistic to say “period” in this place, in this discussion.



To the dictionary:

deadbeat (PERSON) Show phonetics
noun [C] MAINLY US INFORMAL
a person who is not willing to work, does not behave in a responsible way and does not fit into ordinary society:
He's a real deadbeat who's never had a proper job.
[as form of address] Come off it, deadbeat, you're never going to get anywhere.

deadbeat (IN DEBT) Show phonetics
adjective [before noun], noun [C] MAINLY US INFORMAL
(a person or company) not willing to pay debts:
The new law is aimed at deadbeat landlords who owe $22 million.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=19860&dict=CALD
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=19861&dict=CALD

It’s arguable if you understand this vision of the character yourself. But it looks more obvious that you don’t get the meaning of the word “deadbeat.” He might have made a mistake with Lois (not saying good-bye to her) but it is far from being deadbeat.

If Superman would have said good-bye, he stilll would have been away for 5 years since when he left neither him or Lois knew about her pregnancy.

As soon as he knew Jason was his son, he went there and told Lois he was going to be near them. Given that Lois herself didn’t know that Jason was Superman’s she’d be as deadbeat as him about his own son.

Once again Superman has a history of episodic deadbeatism when he quit his mission and left Earth defensless against Zod and co.

It's clear that neither you nor Singer understand the character, or Superman II. And yes Superman is a deadbeat. A deadbeat boyfriend. You can't continue to appologize for Singer's mistakes in SR. It ridiculous. Period. There, I said it again.

 

[mojo-x]

While it doesn't mean that they are all right, two of them that doesn’t agree can be right at the same time.



While no one is going to change anyone else's opinion, everyone – including you and me – will keep posting. My point? It’s useless and unrealistic to say “period” in this place, in this discussion.



To the dictionary:

deadbeat (PERSON) Show phonetics
noun [C] MAINLY US INFORMAL
a person who is not willing to work, does not behave in a responsible way and does not fit into ordinary society:
He's a real deadbeat who's never had a proper job.
[as form of address] Come off it, deadbeat, you're never going to get anywhere.

deadbeat (IN DEBT) Show phonetics
adjective [before noun], noun [C] MAINLY US INFORMAL
(a person or company) not willing to pay debts:
The new law is aimed at deadbeat landlords who owe $22 million.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=19860&dict=CALD
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=19861&dict=CALD

It’s arguable if you understand this vision of the character yourself. But it looks more obvious that you don’t get the meaning of the word “deadbeat.” He might have made a mistake with Lois (not saying good-bye to her) but it is far from being deadbeat.

If Superman would have said good-bye, he stilll would have been away for 5 years since when he left neither him or Lois knew about her pregnancy.

As soon as he knew Jason was his son, he went there and told Lois he was going to be near them. Given that Lois herself didn’t know that Jason was Superman’s she’d be as deadbeat as him about his own son.

Once again Superman has a history of episodic deadbeatism when he quit his mission and left Earth defensless against Zod and co.

Singerman is a deadbeat dad until he takes responsibility and start paying back the 5 year child support Lois desire but judging by the shack he left Martha live in Singerman doesn’t believe in any kind of financial responsibility.

 

[El Payaso]

It's clear that neither you nor Singer understand the character, or Superman II.

Can you prove it?

And yes Superman is a deadbeat. A deadbeat boyfriend.

Well, he has been before. And a deadbeat Earth defender. When things didn't work he either quit his mission or rape minds.

You can't continue to appologize for Singer's mistakes in SR. It ridiculous. Period. There, I said it again.

And again it won't stop anything in here.

 

[El Payaso]

Singerman is a deadbeat dad until he takes responsibility and start paying back the 5 year child support Lois desire but judging by the shack he left Martha live in Singerman doesn’t believe in any kind of financial responsibility.

I don't know no Singerman except men who sing. You must show me who this character is before I can talk about him.

That said, if you're talking about Superman, I'm sure Lois would be willing to sue him if she thought he's guilty of anything, which is not the case. Now, you have no evidence Martha was left financially alone, which is irrelevant because being an adult woman Supoerman has no legal responsibility towards her.

 

[Nightwing1977]

Singerman is a deadbeat dad until he takes responsibility and start paying back the 5 year child support Lois desire but judging by the shack he left Martha live in Singerman doesn’t believe in any kind of financial responsibility.

How the hell can Supes be a deadbeat dad when he didn't even know Jason was his until the end? And how did he even know Lois was preggy with his child before he left? I know you & few others hate SR, but don't make up lame excuse like the "deadbeat dad" crap when you don't even know what it is with using it all wrong. Once again, you're a "deadbeat dad" if you're aware of your child existing & refuse to support the kid. I didn't see that happend with Superman. Did you? No, I don't think so, since he found out at the end & is going to be there for him from now on.

 

[stargazer]

The deadbeat dad argument is soo rediculous...yaaaawn.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Singerman is a deadbeat dad until he takes responsibility and start paying back the 5 year child support Lois desire but judging by the shack he left Martha live in Singerman doesn’t believe in any kind of financial responsibility.

I know. Those checks from Krypton always bounce. Poor Ma Kent.



I'm sure Martha Kent was fine. I mean, she survived all the years Clark went to his training in the FOS (all 12 of 'em) right? and if memory serves me right, we never even see her again in STM. So it's not like she's not used to her son running off on years' lenght quests for truth, justice....And all that stuff.

 

[stargazer]

Bwahahahahaha! You are such an smartass, I am The knight! Coooool.
Powd 3D.

 

[mego joe]

Can you prove it?

YOur posts about the character and Singer's SR are all the evidence I need.

Well, he has been before. And a deadbeat Earth defender. When things didn't work he either quit his mission or rape minds.



And again it won't stop anything in here.

We just need it to stop WB from greenlighting another Superman movie by Singer. Singer can continue to misunderstand the character, but it won't matter b/c he won't be involved in another film.

 

[El Payaso]

YOur posts about the character and Singer's SR are all the evidence I need.

Only thing they prove is that you lose it when it's about an opinion that disagrees with yours. Yoiur accusation of "not getting the character" is just a hermetic logic. The evidence of not getting the character goes no further than not being yuour way to envision the character. At least you hadn't been able to prove any further point.

We just need it to stop WB from greenlighting another Superman movie by Singer. Singer can continue to misunderstand the character, but it won't matter b/c he won't be involved in another film.

You mean since nobody stopped Donner and Lester from doing the same back in the day.

 

[mojo-x]

Actually Donner was stoped during the making of Superman II

 

[El Payaso]

Actually Donner was stoped during the making of Superman II

Superman still quit his mission. And what worse; with Lester he became a mind manipulator.