Superman Returns Was Superman Really Out of Character in SR?

It's kinky. OK I was being silly. ;)

Angeloz


What he and Lois do in the bedroom is up to them, just realize, chains or not- they have a certain obligation to each other that is unique becasue they have become sexually involved.
 
What he and Lois do in the bedroom is up to them, just realize, chains or not- they have a certain obligation to each other that is unique becasue they have become sexually involved.

What if they'd broken up like "Superman II"? ;)

Angeloz
 
They didnt completely break up. They loved eachother regardless! The only problem was that Lois couldnt keep him to herself because the world needed him more. Then he shows how irrisponsible and uncaring he is by leaving both her and us over nothing. Thats unacceptable because he learnt a great lesson in 2 (which singer missed) and that was responsibility, to both the one you love and the world that needs you. If you ask me thay could make it work, if she dates/sleeps with/marries Clark. Thats how its been for the past 21 years and again is something singer missed.
 
What if Zod and co. never happened? It didn't in the novelisation. So no lesson learned.

Angeloz
 
They didnt completely break up. They loved eachother regardless! The only problem was that Lois couldnt keep him to herself because the world needed him more. Then he shows how irrisponsible and uncaring he is by leaving both her and us over nothing. Thats unacceptable because he learnt a great lesson in 2 (which singer missed) and that was responsibility, to both the one you love and the world that needs you. If you ask me thay could make it work, if she dates/sleeps with/marries Clark. Thats how its been for the past 21 years and again is something singer missed.

I believe your assessment of SII is correct. Nice post.
 
What if Zod and co. never happened? It didn't in the novelisation. So no lesson learned.

Angeloz

...and I believe for exact continuity purposes you are correct, b/c those themes are what Singer is rehashing in SR. However, the details and context of his actions in each of the films are different enough that SII does not come off as out of character where as the SR does come off as out of character.

But, only Singer really knows if any specific events from SII in SR continuity. And yet, we are supposed to believe that Lois and SUperman were in some sort of relationship, so it seems to reason that:

dar-El said:
They loved eachother regardless! The only problem was that Lois couldnt keep him to herself because the world needed him more. Then he shows how irrisponsible and uncaring he is by leaving both her and us over nothing.

...and is still a valid point concerning the context of Lois and SUperman's relationship.
 
...and I believe for exact continuity purposes you are correct, b/c those themes are what Singer is rehashing in SR. However, the details and context of his actions in each of the films are different enough that SII does not come off as out of character where as the SR does come off as out of character.

But, only Singer really knows if any specific events from SII in SR continuity. And yet, we are supposed to believe that Lois and SUperman were in some sort of relationship, so it seems to reason that:



...and is still a valid point concerning the context of Lois and SUperman's relationship.

Even mind-wipe kissing?

Angeloz
 
I meant in "Superman II". Separate from "Superman Returns".

Angeloz

I agree. I don't believe the amnesia kiss is in continuity with SR. There's nothing to indicate it was, plus Singer said that whole part was not in the backstory for SR.
 
I should point out that mind wipe kissing and turning back time are things that shouldnt have happened either. By todays standards its pointless. If he did it once (or twice with donners2) he wouldnt learn anything and we'd kinda get bored of it.
 
I meant as a plot point in "Superman II". Like dar-El was talking about.

Angeloz
 
They didnt completely break up. They loved eachother regardless!

First, when you break up, it is completely. Or else they would have been kissing each other after the break up or doing little things which would be as "scandalous" as it is Superman having sex with Lois. And what's funny is that some people find more scandalous sex when both agree with it than mind manipulation when one takes the decision unilaterally.

Then, when they had sex (before Superman went to krypton in SR) they loved each other too, so it's the same.

The only problem was that Lois couldnt keep him to herself because the world needed him more.

Exactly.

Then he shows how irrisponsible and uncaring he is by leaving both her and us over nothing.

First, it wasn't over nothing. He had duties with his origin planet too. it's his roots and legacy. He's as Kryptonian as human. Now, AFTER he went to Krypton he realized there wasn't survivors so he went for nothing, but he couldn't know before taking the decision.

It wasn't more irresponsible than quitting forever in SII. Because before he knew Zod was on Earth and he had to come back to the FOS to recover his powers, when hew took the decision, it was forever.

Thats unacceptable because he learnt a great lesson in 2 (which singer missed) and that was responsibility, to both the one you love and the world that needs you.

If for responsibility to the girl he loves, he pretty much showed that she's not his first priority in the previous movies (again, he even manipulated her mind woithout even bpthering about asking her); It's the world he has to defend. That said, the world that needs him at one point was Krypton, not Earth. The same Superman decided to leave humans to defend by themselves because of Lois, he now had to choose for Krypton, because if there were survivors, those would be his brothers, his compatriots, his race. And to me it seems that his race is by far a more comprehensible reason to leave Earth for 5 years than to quit forever for just one girl - or actually, his own happiness.

If you ask me thay could make it work, if she dates/sleeps with/marries Clark. Thats how its been for the past 21 years and again is something singer missed.

No, because he decided to go the Donner way and consequently, in that way Clark in nothing to Lois.
 
I meant as a plot point in "Superman II". Like dar-El was talking about.

Angeloz

Are talking about the implications of the amnesia kiss within the story in Superman II?

If you watch the scene, it is clear that his intentions are to relieve Lois of the overwhelming pain she is in and her belief that she can't go on to have a life beyond SUperman after what has happened.

He is still operation with the best of intentions. It's just not a great plot device.
 
I agree. Again are we closer to an apocalypse? It was a nice tragedy too. As long as you don't think about the implications - which I can do.

Angeloz
 
I agree. Again are we closer to an apocalypse? It was a nice tragedy too. As long as you don't think about the implications - which I can do.

Angeloz

In today's world you can't take the amnesia kiss as it was intended in SII. It was a different world. I can overlook it for the sake of the film, but it would be harder if it had more of an impact on the story and not just a bad resolution.

Do I hear 7 trumpets?
 
Are talking about the implications of the amnesia kiss within the story in Superman II?

If you watch the scene, it is clear that his intentions are to relieve Lois of the overwhelming pain she is in and her belief that she can't go on to have a life beyond SUperman after what has happened.

If his intentions were to allow Lois tro get better from pain, he should have quit Daily Planet and let Lois to move on.

Instead he insisted in keeping his job and doomed Lois to be in love with Superman forever instead of allowing her to move on and forget about him.

But yes, the music and every element were made to make you feel like Superman was being utter altruistic. The real implicances of his acts nevertheless proved otherwise.

He is still operation with the best of intentions. It's just not a great plot device.

Judging from his actions, his motivations don't seem to be the best. In best of cases merely naive.
 
If his intentions were to allow Lois tro get better from pain, he should have quit Daily Planet and let Lois to move on.

It's clear from her dialogue that his very existence in the world will trouble her and cause her pain. Not just that he's around her.
Instead he insisted in keeping his job and doomed Lois to be in love with Superman forever instead of allowing her to move on and forget about him.

No, he gave her the old amnesia kiss/ super-hypnotism to remedy that, remember?
But yes, the music and every element were made to make you feel like Superman was being utter altruistic. The real implicances of his acts nevertheless proved otherwise.

Oh, you mean every intention of the filmmakers was exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting?

"Implicances" is not a word.


Judging from his actions, his motivations don't seem to be the best. In best of cases merely naive.

And what repercussions did she suffer from his 'amnesia kiss?'

And what were his intentions according to El Payaso?
 
El payaso is suggesting he shouldve quit the daily planet? What the hell? Working there is an important part of the character and the mythology itself. Changing that would be ridiculas, not to mention showing how cowardly he is. (Are you telling me you'd quit you're job because a relationship with a workmate didnt work out?) and as much as i hate them, the amnesia kiss and turning back time sequences were the only solutions he had at the time. In a way they gave him a clean slate to start over with. But instead he did a stupid thing and put krypton before earth. Why is that stupid? Because its gone! We all know its gone. How do we know? The existance of kryptonite! No more survivors! and if you really think about it, the only real reason he left was because he thought he couldnt be with Lois. Not beacause he thought they may be survivors out there! His insecurities about being alone gave him the push. Admittedly this wouldve hurt him, tore him apart (but we didnt see that in the film, so yet another reason why it sucks) But was it really a decent enough excuse to leave her and us? If he really loved her and understood his responsibility toward earth (which he did by the end of S2) he wouldve have tried again. Only as Lois and Clark. But he didnt did he? No he quit like a whining idiot. and that is why it isnt superman. Because he didnt even try. In singers universe he's nothing more than a gulable, insecure, bufoon that acted selfishly. Who in the end marginally redeemed himself. Sorry but that is not superman! He is not an anti hero. He is the THE GREATEST OF ALL HEROES. All the others try to be like him and humanity should look up to him. But thanks to singer, all my years of admiration were for nothing. Cos that great hero and everything he stood for was destroyed in that terrible, lame ass movie.
 
It would depend. If he does not act consistently towards Lois from film to film it really wouldn't matter. Let's see where you're going with this.




I think you know this, but I completely disagree.


So they were probably in a close committed relationship? YEs? Then how can he not have revealed his Clark identity to her along the way and still be in a committed adult relationship?



I understand where you are going with this, but the circumstances that I see played out in the film tell me otherwise. If he REALLY was that committed and concerned and thoughtful he would have told her he was Clark and he would have told her goodbye. Singer gives us a Superman doing things that are questionable, so why wouldn't his attitude towards sex also be questionable since we are given no context? Unless you think that it is Ok that he didn't say goodbye or that he didn't reaveal his dual identity to Lois.



I despertely want to, but the details of the film don't indicate a scenario that's possible. The fact that there is doubt at all about whether Superman did the right thing in this situation pretty much proves that Singer was trying to show Superman doing the wrong thing. If he isn't doing the wrong thing in this situation, the movie doesn't make any sense thematically.

If Superman didn't do anything wrong why is Lois so upset? Why does he have to appoologize after the fact once he returns? Why does he make sure to say goodbye when he leaves the helicopter?



No, I think he's jealous of Richard. He tried to woo her back with the romantic nightime flight. He tried to one-up Richard when Lois told him that Richard takes her flying too and he said, "Not like this." He broke the picture when Jimmy gave him the update on Lois's life becasue he was hurt becasue Lois moved on. He's not trying to 'catch up.' He's trying to pick up where he left off when he left.



Then Jimmy's line about it being SUperman's fault is a pointless and useless line in the film.


I've said it before, but it's not the fact that he left, it's the way he left, he details of that matter.


I'm not trying to absolve Lex of anything. I'm interpreting the meaning of JImmy's line about SUperman being at fault for Lex going free. It's right there in the movie. It's not like he escaped as he did in Superman II. Jimmy Olsen, a guy who works at a newspaper, someone you would expect to be a credible source on news says that Lex got free b/c of a technicality due to Superman not being around to testify. I'm not making this up. It's in the movie. No matter what you imagine might happen doesn't change the fact that that scene is in the movie and it has to be there for a reason, otherwise it would certainly have been cut.

Actually, I'll explain to you exactly what's in the movie. Jimmy says that Lex got out on his fifth (yes, FIFTH) appeal. Lex had already been tried, convicted, and was sitting in jail for a long time. Lois even tells us what his sentence was (double-life sentence). For Superman, he justifiably felt that Lex was no longer a threat. He had been brought to justice, and was sitting in jail. How you can hold Superman at all responsible for this is nothing short of astounding to me. :huh: Lex just waited until he knew Superman was gone and then called for him as a witness. The purpose of the line was stated in the film: "How much do you think that pisses off Superman?" His response: "A lot." It was meant to anger and frustrate him. Lex and the appeal's court are ultimately the ones responsible for him being back on the streets.


I've read so many that it's hard to narrow it down. THe early Action stuff is fun, the current comics especially the Superman title is great. "WHat Ever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" is also a classic, as is Alan Moore's 'other' Superman story- "For the Man who has Everything." The decade trades, "Superman in the Fifties," "....Sixties," "....Seventies," are all good. And at the time I enjoyed the Byrne revamp in the mid eighties.





THe fact that he got out on a technicality doesn't make this a strong case, though. If he simply escaped b/c he wasn't around I could by that, but the fact that it is based on a technicality to me indicates that SInger wants the viewer to believe that Superman is somehow at fault.



Maybe he liked it b/c it WASN'T like SUperman who he dislikes.


Then Jason isn't necessary to complete him, only any loving relationship, and Jason's character is nearly useless.


I agree, and I've tried to avoid it up to this point.


Since Lois is the one that's pregnant we don't really need to know. Lois's body is not going to change chemically or genetically b/c Jason is half Kryptonian. And if that were really important then Singer would have addressed it. He didn't so we don't have to invent stuff, we just have to know the basics of human pregnancy. Lois is human, she's pregnant. THat's all you have to know. My belief is that SInger didn't elaborate b/c he assumed that people would go with the most obvious answer. Lois had sex with both men close together and didn't think it COULD be SUperman's b/c of the DNA differences.


But where does he hurt Lois in those films?

In S:TM and SII, Superman is motivated to save Lois's life and aleviate her pain so that she can continue on. His methods may not be perfect, but his motivation is in her best interest.

If you can't understand this, then you are totally missing the point of the Donner Superman films.

In SR, Superman leaves w/o telling her goodbye while either being in the midst of a sexual relationship with her, or almost immediately after ending the relationship. This is not in her best interest, but by his 'too difficult' comment- his best interest.

In terms of his motivation when it comes to Lois, that is all you need to understand- his actions are motivated for opposite reasons between the STM/SII and SR.

STM/SII: Lois's best interests.

SR: His own best interests.

It's cut and dry.

I don't think it's so cut and dry...I'll discuss that at the bottom.


But at no point is he putting his own feelings before Lois.


No problem, but his actions have to be those of a good human, not a jerk.

Rag away. They are good, even really good at times, but they are far from perfect and far from being 'canon' Superman films.

Interestingly, I think deep down we believe in the same Superman we just interpret the material differently.

To me it boils down to this.

You don't get someone pregnant and miss 5 years of that child's life w/o the mother of that knowing where you are without doing something morally and ethically wrong. Whether it's entering into a sexual relationship w/o commitment or leaving that woman w/o saying goodbye b/c he didn't have the intestinal fortitude to do what's right, either way he's done something wrong. That reasoning is what I find out of character for Superman.

He puts his own feeling before those of Lois. THat is not how good people act toward the perosn they love.

So...how long are we going to keep going in circles? It's clear you are looking at the film and interpreting things a certain way. I'm looking at the same film and interpreting them in a completely different way. The point I've tried to make in this thread is that although Superman did questionable things in SR, he has done questionable things throughout his history. To say that he is out of character because he does something questionable is just inaccurate.

The way you seem to justify Superman's actions in the examples I listed prior, (Superman turning back time for Lois, the amnesia kiss) is that his intentions were good. He was trying to help Lois in both cases so that makes it okay. To me if the act itself is wrong it doesn't matter what the intention is. For example, I consider abortion to be wrong (I know others might disagree). But look at someone who bombs abortion clinics. They feel abortion is wrong as well. And in their mind what they are doing is good. They have good intentions in their own mind. But that doesn't change the fact that the act itself (bombing an abortion clinic) is completely wrong! I could never condone something like that because the act itself is wrong. The ends don't justify the means.

You ask how Superman hurt Lois through those actions? That is completely irrelevant. Particularly with the example from S:TM. It is clearly demonstrated that Superman has the ability to alter history to bring dead people back to life. It wouldn't be a problem if Superman decided to bring everyone back to life. But he doesn't. He just brings Lois back to life. I mentioned that cop who died in S:TM. What do you think their opinion would be of Superman's moral character, knowing that he had the power to bring him back to life, he just wouldn't do it. Except he does use this power for other people that are close to him. Do you see how morally questionable this is? Superman is essentially playing God; deciding who lives and who dies. To me that is wrong because that shouldn't be his call to make. It doesn't matter if his intentions are good. If he is going to do that for Lois, he should be consistent and do that for everyone who dies.

Also in SII, with the amnesia kiss, it doesn't matter if his intentions are good...the act itself was wrong. If his intentions were so upright, why didn't he just ask her permission before doing the amnesia kiss? That would have been easy. Lois is an adult and she has the right to choose what happens to her own mind. Except Superman robbed her of that in SII. He disrespected her right to choose and made the choice for her. How do you think Lois would have reacted if she had known what Superman was going to do? I think she would been repulsed at the very idea of having her mind manipulated like that. Compared to Superman being insensitive to his girlfriend/ex-girlfriend in the back story of SR, these two examples look a lot worse in my opinion.

You mentioned that you liked Bryne's revamp of Superman. That's a good place to look if you want to see Superman acting in ways that just don't seem to gel with the idea of being a completely altruistic guy. One example: do you remember how Clark got his job with the Daily Planet? He came with the big scoop on Superman (which I'm sure was sooooo difficult for him to get). You might say, "well Clark had to get a job at the Daily Planet." But did he have to get it that way? The post crisis version of Clark Kent seems to care about being a legitimately good reporter. If that is the case wouldn't he care about being hired based on his actually ability as opposed to a sensational story that he didn't earn? What if their was someone else up for that open reporter job at the Planet? The stories that they earned would pale in comparison to a story on Superman. We see it demonstrated that Lois was willing to risk her life trying to get the story on Superman. But all of her efforts were pointless because Clark had in mind to use the story to get hired. Maybe he didn't consider it wrong to turn in that story. But that doesn't hold water either because later we see it indicated that he turns down awards for the article. He knows he didn't earn it. He knows what he did was
morally questionable. That didn't stop him from doing it and accepting the job at the Daily Planet.

Believe it or not, I've actually got more examples of Superman doing morally questionable things (if you want me to go into them I will). Also, to make it clear, I am absolutely a fan of the films and comics that I have mentioned. The thing I am inviting you into is consistency. None of these "problems" is a big issue to me for one reason: we're dealing with fictional characters. At the end of the day, they're still just movies and comics. I don't lose sleep over Clark getting his job at the Planet through scrupulous means. But if you are going to scrutinize Superman's moral fiber in SR than by all means, do it with the rest of the Superman mythology. What we saw in SR was Superman acknowledging that he had wronged Lois Lane. By the end of the film she was willing to forgive him and put the past behind them. Can you do the same?

*By the way, sorry it took me so long to respond. I've been busy lately. Thanks again for the interesting discussion. :up:
 
true316 said:
To me if the act itself is wrong it doesn't matter what the intention is. For example, I consider abortion to be wrong (I know others might disagree). But look at someone who bombs abortion clinics. They feel abortion is wrong as well. And in their mind what they are doing is good. They have good intentions in their own mind. But that doesn't change the fact that the act itself (bombing an abortion clinic) is completely wrong! I could never condone something like that because the act itself is wrong. The ends don't justify the means.


A bit quieter and less extreme example to pose.
My wife is in an accident, and she is critically injured, I hurry to the ER, my intention being, to be by her side. In transit, I drive at excessive speeds, and I run several red lights. Running a red light and speeding are wrong, and I present a threat to other motorists, but don't my intentions mitigate my acts?
 
Well you might kill yourself or others. Maybe ending up in the hospital needing treatment yourself.

Angeloz
 
So...how long are we going to keep going in circles? It's clear you are looking at the film and interpreting things a certain way. I'm looking at the same film and interpreting them in a completely different way. The point I've tried to make in this thread is that although Superman did questionable things in SR, he has done questionable things throughout his history. To say that he is out of character because he does something questionable is just inaccurate.

The way you seem to justify Superman's actions in the examples I listed prior, (Superman turning back time for Lois, the amnesia kiss) is that his intentions were good. He was trying to help Lois in both cases so that makes it okay. To me if the act itself is wrong it doesn't matter what the intention is. For example, I consider abortion to be wrong (I know others might disagree). But look at someone who bombs abortion clinics. They feel abortion is wrong as well. And in their mind what they are doing is good. They have good intentions in their own mind. But that doesn't change the fact that the act itself (bombing an abortion clinic) is completely wrong! I could never condone something like that because the act itself is wrong. The ends don't justify the means.

You ask how Superman hurt Lois through those actions? That is completely irrelevant. Particularly with the example from S:TM. It is clearly demonstrated that Superman has the ability to alter history to bring dead people back to life. It wouldn't be a problem if Superman decided to bring everyone back to life. But he doesn't. He just brings Lois back to life. I mentioned that cop who died in S:TM. What do you think their opinion would be of Superman's moral character, knowing that he had the power to bring him back to life, he just wouldn't do it. Except he does use this power for other people that are close to him. Do you see how morally questionable this is? Superman is essentially playing God; deciding who lives and who dies. To me that is wrong because that shouldn't be his call to make. It doesn't matter if his intentions are good. If he is going to do that for Lois, he should be consistent and do that for everyone who dies.

Also in SII, with the amnesia kiss, it doesn't matter if his intentions are good...the act itself was wrong. If his intentions were so upright, why didn't he just ask her permission before doing the amnesia kiss? That would have been easy. Lois is an adult and she has the right to choose what happens to her own mind. Except Superman robbed her of that in SII. He disrespected her right to choose and made the choice for her. How do you think Lois would have reacted if she had known what Superman was going to do? I think she would been repulsed at the very idea of having her mind manipulated like that. Compared to Superman being insensitive to his girlfriend/ex-girlfriend in the back story of SR, these two examples look a lot worse in my opinion.

You mentioned that you liked Bryne's revamp of Superman. That's a good place to look if you want to see Superman acting in ways that just don't seem to gel with the idea of being a completely altruistic guy. One example: do you remember how Clark got his job with the Daily Planet? He came with the big scoop on Superman (which I'm sure was sooooo difficult for him to get). You might say, "well Clark had to get a job at the Daily Planet." But did he have to get it that way? The post crisis version of Clark Kent seems to care about being a legitimately good reporter. If that is the case wouldn't he care about being hired based on his actually ability as opposed to a sensational story that he didn't earn? What if their was someone else up for that open reporter job at the Planet? The stories that they earned would pale in comparison to a story on Superman. We see it demonstrated that Lois was willing to risk her life trying to get the story on Superman. But all of her efforts were pointless because Clark had in mind to use the story to get hired. Maybe he didn't consider it wrong to turn in that story. But that doesn't hold water either because later we see it indicated that he turns down awards for the article. He knows he didn't earn it. He knows what he did was
morally questionable. That didn't stop him from doing it and accepting the job at the Daily Planet.

Believe it or not, I've actually got more examples of Superman doing morally questionable things (if you want me to go into them I will). Also, to make it clear, I am absolutely a fan of the films and comics that I have mentioned. The thing I am inviting you into is consistency. None of these "problems" is a big issue to me for one reason: we're dealing with fictional characters. At the end of the day, they're still just movies and comics. I don't lose sleep over Clark getting his job at the Planet through scrupulous means. But if you are going to scrutinize Superman's moral fiber in SR than by all means, do it with the rest of the Superman mythology. What we saw in SR was Superman acknowledging that he had wronged Lois Lane. By the end of the film she was willing to forgive him and put the past behind them. Can you do the same?

*By the way, sorry it took me so long to respond. I've been busy lately. Thanks again for the interesting discussion. :up:

Can i just say true that this is the best post i have read on here in a good while. Not only do you present solid arguments, but you back them up perfectly.

And i totally agree with your point, people seem to be making excuses for Superman making mistakes in all other mediums, but then have a go at him for the mistakes he makes in SR? Its ridiculous IMO, and non of the mistakes he makes in SR (yes i'll admit he makes some bad one's but to claim he doesnt learn from them is unbelievable IMO) are any worse than ANYTHING he has done in the comics, or previous movies, or various T.V series.

Again, well said.
 
So...how long are we going to keep going in circles? It's clear you are looking at the film and interpreting things a certain way. I'm looking at the same film and interpreting them in a completely different way. The point I've tried to make in this thread is that although Superman did questionable things in SR, he has done questionable things throughout his history. To say that he is out of character because he does something questionable is just inaccurate.

Apparently we can go around in circles for quite a while!! :)

You are right, we are interpreting things differently.

I understand what you are getting at, but I stand by my point as far as him being out of character.


The way you seem to justify Superman's actions in the examples I listed prior, (Superman turning back time for Lois, the amnesia kiss) is that his intentions were good. He was trying to help Lois in both cases so that makes it okay.
My point is simply about his intentions not that it makes removing someones memory 'right.' My point is in the difference in his intentions between SR and Superman II/ STM.

In SR, his intention is to not tell difficult is because 'it is too difficult.' That intention doesn not stand for me. That is out of character for Superman. He doesn not avoid things b/c they are 'too difficult.' If his reasoning is that then he would not be able to leave b/c he's seen her again, that is also out of character. He's not emotionally crippled by his love for Lois. That is what I'm trying to get across. These elements are out of character for Superman. He's not going to put his own feelings above Lois's feelings, especially b/c they were in a sexual relationship.

He's not capapble of just any mistake, but he sure might be capable of making a mistake that would be in Lois's best interest that would her her.
To me if the act itself is wrong it doesn't matter what the intention is.

But we are not talking about the act itself, I'm talking about the intention, and then you have to go on a case by case basis to determine if the act itself is wrong or not.

My point is that while SUperman may make mistakes, his intentions are from the right place.

The act is something separate as in the amnesia kiss. However, I think you have to view STM and SII in the context of the time they were made and the contemporary to the time view of Superman. I believe that they gave those movies the solutions they did b/c the view of Superman is that he could come up with a solution to fix everything and anything. Superman stories are not quite the same today.

Just remember I am only concerned with his intentions toward Lois.
For example, I consider abortion to be wrong (I know others might disagree). But look at someone who bombs abortion clinics. They feel abortion is wrong as well. And in their mind what they are doing is good. They have good intentions in their own mind. But that doesn't change the fact that the act itself (bombing an abortion clinic) is completely wrong! I could never condone something like that because the act itself is wrong. The ends don't justify the means.

Their anti-abortion stance is good, but their actual intention in blowing up the abortion clinic is to blow up the clinic, and that is wrong as you put. They are acting out in an incorrect way in order to make their point.

Superman's stance on believing he should go to Krypton is good, but his intention on not telling Lois is bad. It's the same paradigm as I stated above for the abortion clinic bombers.

While going to Krypton is good, there is no good intention in not telling LOis, just as an anti-abortion stance is good, there is no good intention in blowing up a clinic.
You ask how Superman hurt Lois through those actions? That is completely irrelevant. Particularly with the example from S:TM. It is clearly demonstrated that Superman has the ability to alter history to bring dead people back to life. It wouldn't be a problem if Superman decided to bring everyone back to life. But he doesn't. He just brings Lois back to life. I mentioned that cop who died in S:TM. What do you think their opinion would be of Superman's moral character, knowing that he had the power to bring him back to life, he just wouldn't do it. Except he does use this power for other people that are close to him. Do you see how morally questionable this is? Superman is essentially playing God; deciding who lives and who dies. To me that is wrong because that shouldn't be his call to make. It doesn't matter if his intentions are good. If he is going to do that for Lois, he should be consistent and do that for everyone who dies.

You've made an excellent argument for why it was a bad plot device in the movie. However, in the context of the film itself, I don't think that is how the filmmakers viewed the situation. You are judging it from a real world perspective instead of how it is presented in the movie.

Also in SII, with the amnesia kiss, it doesn't matter if his intentions are good...the act itself was wrong. If his intentions were so upright, why didn't he just ask her permission before doing the amnesia kiss? That would have been easy. Lois is an adult and she has the right to choose what happens to her own mind. Except Superman robbed her of that in SII. He disrespected her right to choose and made the choice for her. How do you think Lois would have reacted if she had known what Superman was going to do? I think she would been repulsed at the very idea of having her mind manipulated like that.

Except that the approach to the character in STM and SII is a Superman that IS better than the average person and he DOES know what is best for us, at least that is what Jor-El tells him. And again, she surely didn't seem to mind when she 'remembered' everything for a few minutes in Superman IV.

I understand your point, but I don't think that the filmmakers viewed these events the way we do 25/30 years later. At the time when making the movies, they did not see these events as 'wrong' or 'questionable.'

Compared to Superman being insensitive to his girlfriend/ex-girlfriend in the back story of SR, these two examples look a lot worse in my opinion.

Well it all depends on how you look at it I gues. In STM and SII he made some questionable judgements in order to help LOis and relieve her pain.
In SR he made a bad decision based on avoiding his own pain and putting his own feelings above Lois's. I see that as completely opposite.

In STM and SII, he saved Lois life and allowed her to carry on w/o the knowledge that there was a chance of a relationship w/ Superman.
In SR, he left Lois high and dry pregnant with his child and is unable to raise his son as his own.

Whose life is better off? Lois in STM and SII being alive & w/o the knowlege of what can never be, or Lois and Jason in SR- Jason will have a major emotinal problem at some point when he finds out the truth, and Lois who will always have that pain of being dumped w/o a goodbye and the knowledge that it's the reason she's not w/ SUperman and raising Jason together.

WHich one is more like real life? SR. But who's better off? Lois from STM and SII.
You mentioned that you liked Bryne's revamp of Superman. That's a good place to look if you want to see Superman acting in ways that just don't seem to gel with the idea of being a completely altruistic guy. One example: do you remember how Clark got his job with the Daily Planet? He came with the big scoop on Superman (which I'm sure was sooooo difficult for him to get). You might say, "well Clark had to get a job at the Daily Planet." But did he have to get it that way? The post crisis version of Clark Kent seems to care about being a legitimately good reporter. If that is the case wouldn't he care about being hired based on his actually ability as opposed to a sensational story that he didn't earn?

It's not like he stole the story, everything he said is true- it just so happens to be that he is also SUperman.
What if their was someone else up for that open reporter job at the Planet? The stories that they earned would pale in comparison to a story on Superman. We see it demonstrated that Lois was willing to risk her life trying to get the story on Superman. But all of her efforts were pointless because Clark had in mind to use the story to get hired.

And he'll always have access to Superman stories, it's not like he made it up or got it on false pretenses.
Maybe he didn't consider it wrong to turn in that story. But that doesn't hold water either because later we see it indicated that he turns down awards for the article. He knows he didn't earn it. He knows what he did was morally questionable. That didn't stop him from doing it and accepting the job at the Daily Planet.

He just knew it wasn't award worthy b/c it was not a truly difficult story.
Believe it or not, I've actually got more examples of Superman doing morally questionable things (if you want me to go into them I will).
Bring em on!
Also, to make it clear, I am absolutely a fan of the films and comics that I have mentioned. The thing I am inviting you into is consistency. None of these "problems" is a big issue to me for one reason: we're dealing with fictional characters. At the end of the day, they're still just movies and comics. I don't lose sleep over Clark getting his job at the Planet through scrupulous means. But if you are going to scrutinize Superman's moral fiber in SR than by all means, do it with the rest of the Superman mythology. What we saw in SR was Superman acknowledging that he had wronged Lois Lane. By the end of the film she was willing to forgive him and put the past behind them. Can you do the same?
I cannot forgive him for wronging his son. That is a mistake you can never make up for, especially since he is not raising the boy now. It will only get worse and worse.

That is the worst part about it. And it destroys the story for me b/c the whole film hinges on his out of character actions instead of something beyond his control he had to overcome.
*By the way, sorry it took me so long to respond. I've been busy lately. Thanks again for the interesting discussion. :up:
no problem
 

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