Superman Returns Was Superman Really Out of Character in SR?

Good points, but as the world moves forward, the ideas of wright and wrong change. Superman as a character will change too. In 50 years when Superman films are being made you take a look at the them do you think that they will change the character?

SOme things will change, but certain things should not, otherwise you will lose the essence of the character. For me this has already happened in SR and to a lesser degree in SUperman: Doomsday, but still enough to take away any interest I have in watching that DVD.
 
Superman 2 has all the answers to all your questions.

Where does it show why it was 'too difficult' for him to say goodbye?

1)In SM2 Clark gives up his powers to be with Lois(pretty selfish of you ask me). To Jor-El it is a Superman or Lois thing. He cant do both. That is why he kisses her to make her forget. He cant be with her. Mandated from his father.
2) Zod and his gang come down and almost kill him. Scientists discover the remains of Krypton and Superman goes to see if anyone survived....because if a larger number of Kryptonians made it to earth could he really beat them???

You know that stuff from SII is not really in continuity with SR, right?

Besides, if she got the amnesia kiss, why isn't she horrified that Superman raped her when she learns Jason is Superman's son?
 
El Payaso,

Please explain to me then how this works consistently between films:

In STM and SII, he is motivated to help Lois and put her above himself and his own desires and needs AND responsibilities. He disobeys his father's directive and he turns back time for her. He quits being Superman for her. His motivation in all cases whether for the good or bad of the rest of the world put Lois first.

How then in SR can he be motivated by his own fears and not overcome the difficulty in saying goodbye in order to do what is right and put Lois first? Especially if they were in a committed loving relationship? Is that how you would treat someone you love? Is that how anyone would treat someone they truly love? Is that how Superman who has so far been shown to put Lois's needs before the needs of the world would treat Lois?

How can you not see this incongruency between the two films?

Are you just choosing to ignore it?

S:TM and SII- Lois comes first
SR- Superman comes first.

How can you not see this?
 
He is just too stubborn and will defend SR even with the most pathetic points he can find.

How can he not see that the explanation "Lois is too difficult to handle" is a dumb one it`s beyond me.
 
He is just too stubborn and will defend SR even with the most pathetic points he can find.

How can he not see that the explanation "Lois is too difficult to handle" is a dumb one it`s beyond me.

I know, he is infuriating at times.

Did he really use the 'too difficult to handle' excuse?
 
El Payaso,

Please explain to me then how this works consistently between films:

In STM and SII, he is motivated to help Lois and put her above himself and his own desires and needs AND responsibilities. He disobeys his father's directive and he turns back time for her. He quits being Superman for her. His motivation in all cases whether for the good or bad of the rest of the world put Lois first.

Which leads us to the tricky part of that statement.

Being Lois Superman's most valued treasure... isn't going in the treasure's interest going in his own interest?

When exactly he put Lois before himself?

And putting Lois before his mission and the rest of people, isn't that being irresponsible?

That puts Superman's motivations in the questionable department. Both Singer's and Donner's.

The same he chose Lois before his mission he chose Krypton's trip over Lois.

How then in SR can he be motivated by his own fears and not overcome the difficulty in saying goodbye in order to do what is right and put Lois first? Especially if they were in a committed loving relationship? Is that how you would treat someone you love? Is that how anyone would treat someone they truly love? Is that how Superman who has so far been shown to put Lois's needs before the needs of the world would treat Lois?

Because his mission was to go to Krypton. That's why he refuses to go and see Lois. If he sees her, he'd probably think it's better - for him - to stay. And he won't accomplish his mission. Once again, because of Lois. As he has been doing for so long. He's not able to quit her, and that's why he doesn't go and see her.

It's like if in STM Superman let Lois die and instead of going for her body, he goes to the Fortress and leaves the body in the desert in order to avoid the temptation of doing something wrong just because HE feels HE can't go on without her beloved girl... like reversing time.

Sure, you can call it fear. He fears to have the decency of picking up Lois' dead body so it won't lie in the desert under the vultures. But secretly, he's refraining of doing something that could deviate him from his greater mission. In STM he failed. He failed because of love.

It's like if he, as Clark, quits the Planet forever, because he knows his presence will torment Lois in Superman II. He quits Daily Planet and that way Lois will be able to heal day after day until she can move on with her life, maybe another man, etc. But by deleting her memory he's manipulating her mind, without her permision, and he's making sure he won't have to feel the guilt and the pain of having her stressed. And he keeps his job of course.

He choses to - by preventing her from the pain - to prevent himself from the pain also. Now Lois can't get over Superman, she doesn't remember that that love is impossible and what's worse, she can't remember she had sex with him.

And I don't have even mentioned Zod's killing and bullying back Rocky abusing of his super-powers.

In a certain way I find what he did in SR not as bad as what he did in STM and SII.

How can you not see this incongruency between the two films?

Are you just choosing to ignore it?

As you see, I choose to consider far more aspects than you do.

S:TM and SII- Lois comes first
SR- Superman comes first.

How can you not see this?

STM and SII - Lois comes first
SR - His mission comes first.

Yes, Superman has grown up.
 
He is just too stubborn and will defend SR even with the most pathetic points he can find.

How can he not see that the explanation "Lois is too difficult to handle" is a dumb one it`s beyond me.

I believe the exact quote was "Unbearable to handle"... sigh

First sir, have the dignity and pants to talk to my face if you want to say something and call me names. That said, maybe it would be healthy for you to start giving solid arguments instead of insults. Somewhow you haven't been able or courageous to even try it.

I know, he is infuriating at times.

It's infuriating that I can prove things and make points? Maybe if you try to prove me wrong instead of calling me names?

Did he really use the 'too difficult to handle' excuse?

It's an argument. One that you haven't been able to refute properly.
 
First sir, have the dignity and pants to talk to my face if you want to say something and call me names. That said, maybe it would be healthy for you to start giving solid arguments instead of insults. Somewhow you haven't been able or courageous to even try it.



It's infuriating that I can prove things and make points? Maybe if you try to prove me wrong instead of calling me names?

Like "Clown." That's what your name means in Spanish, right?

Dude, I've been proving you wrong for a year now. Just b/c you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't true.


It's an argument. One that you haven't been able to refute properly.

Payaso, it all boils down to opinion. DOn't act like you have properly refuted points and I haven't. It's all in your own mind. We view too many things differently. THe world. Morality. SUperman. That's just the way it is.
 
Maybe I could help you two in your year long feud. Could you instead try to focus on examples of what Supermans character should be like? As of now it is just SR this and Superman that. Which I know is the point as some of you think he was out of character in SR. But I still think he has done this stuff in other comics etc...
 
Maybe I could help you two in your year long feud. Could you instead try to focus on examples of what Supermans character should be like? As of now it is just SR this and Superman that. Which I know is the point as some of you think he was out of character in SR. But I still think he has done this stuff in other comics etc...

I thought you were meant to be evil with a name like LexCorp? ;)

So naughty of you being sensible. I wonder if they'll punish you? ;)

Angeloz
 
Well to be fair I don't I am a poor Lex. I just think Superman has been out of character in much more of an extreme way before which should be the point of attetion. Like that crap 70s musical version!! Oh my god that was bad.
 
I don't disagree with you though I have only seen clips of the Musical. Ironically on "Look Up At the Sky" or whatever it was called.

Angeloz
 
I don't disagree with you though I have only seen clips of the Musical. Ironically on "Look Up At the Sky" or whatever it was called.

Angeloz

You know it is not just that too I mean Superman has been used to make toys for kids and his logo is all over the place in the comics. Now we can't hold Superman accountable for the greedy humans that market him like this but his involement with Earth has had an effect on the economy I think. That was just one example.
 
Are you saying he was naughty leaving 'cos it'd have a negative effect on the economy? Or is it this world you're talking about? Please elaborate.

Angeloz
 
Are you saying he was naughty leaving 'cos it'd have a negative effect on the economy? Or is it this world you're talking about? Please elaborate.

Angeloz

Not about the leaving part. Just a random thought I had.

Any who can even say what the character should be like as there have been so many different versions and writers for him. You would need to take the fundamentals and add them up.
 
Not about the leaving part. Just a random thought I had.

Any who can even say what the character should be like as there have been so many different versions and writers for him. You would need to take the fundamentals and add them up.

I agree. Though why can't they be allowed to have their version of him (creators/directors/writers)? I'll grant you then there's the Burton or Peters version. But you don't have to like it. I doubt I would for those two. I'm just saying there's more than one version of him in all sorts of formats (comics, TV, film, etc.) and there's no one blueprint nor absolute. Though I guess there is in some people's heads. Although I'll admit I could object to some things. I didn't however in "Superman Returns". Oh well.

Angeloz
 
I agree. Though why can't they be allowed to have their version of him (creators/directors/writers)? I'll grant you then there's the Burton or Peters version. But you don't have to like it. I doubt I would for those two. I'm just saying there's more than one version of him in all sorts of formats (comics, TV, film, etc.) and there's no one blueprint nor absolute. Though I guess there is in some people's heads. Although I'll admit I could object to some things. I didn't however in "Superman Returns". Oh well.

Angeloz

That is the real issue that SR superman was not everyones cup of tea. But as you say there is not one blueprint for a superman.
 
Maybe I could help you two in your year long feud. Could you instead try to focus on examples of what Supermans character should be like? As of now it is just SR this and Superman that. Which I know is the point as some of you think he was out of character in SR. But I still think he has done this stuff in other comics etc...

With all the Superman comics I've read over the past 30 years, there's nothing like what we're discussing here. I'm sure of that.
 
That is the real issue that SR superman was not everyones cup of tea. But as you say there is not one blueprint for a superman.

And that's the thing, somethings can change, but to me the decisions about his character in SR change something essential about the character as well as contradict specific things in the comics that reveal the core of his character.
 
That his heart's located in his liver. :oldrazz:

I know: that's Spock.

OK being silly but we know you object.

Angeloz
 
What Superman's character should be like....

Genuinely caring and compassionate and willing and able to at least attempt enacting change. (Peace on Earth, Must THere Be A Superman?, SIV: The Quest for Peace)

When it comes to those closest to him, he will do whatever necessary to protect them b/c he loves them,(For Tomorrow, What Ever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow)

Lois is his anchor and the thing that keeps him human in spite of his god-like powers. HIs love for her is how he KNOWS he is human.(For Tomorrow)

His personality is consistent in both his public and personal life. Not to say his personal life will not take precedence over his private life (Sacrifice, Kingdom Come)
but he will not knowingly do the wrong thing to hurt humanity or the people he loves. (see issues of Action that take place after "Exile" for an example of particular importance to SR.)

He has an indominable will. (For Tomorrow, What Ever Happened To the Man of Tomorrow?)

Keep in mind that the source stories are just off the top of my head and what are most recent in my mind. I've read plenty and just can't think of everything.
 
Cool beans.

But he still is not a consistent character in ever portrayal over the decades.
SR was just the last time he was screwed with in a big way.
 

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