WB/DC: It's All Part Of The Plan

[stargazer]

Indeed Lestat, you are quite right. Some of the best tales ever told are born out of the personal experiance of the director/story-teller. I remember watching Deep Space Nine once, and Jake says to Captain Sisko that he wants to stay on DS9 because he wants to experiance more things, and "that you can only write well about what you have experianced" (or words to that effect).

And just because he has issues with it doesn't mean it hurts him. It's something that Singer knows, and feels that the character can express. Superman IS adopted. He IS alien. How can Singer not find parallels between that and his own story?

And he is also the last of his kind.

And yeah, I remember that episode of DS9. I'm a big trek fan.

 

[stargazer]

Fair enough but when he takes it to far and makes Superman a loner and isolated individual I would say that's a bit to much. Singer might feel like an isolated individual who is perhaps a loner but Superman is not that.

Why not? I think it's valid to explore that side of Superman. He is a lonely saviour. Singer just expanded on the theme presented in STM when Lara tells Jor-El that he (baby Kal-El) will be different to the people of Earth, that he will feel alone and isolated. Do you remember those scenes? I think it brings a new layer and more depth to the character, and makes him much more interesting and real. He becomes more than a pretty face beside a train or an action figure that punches things. At least, it made me care for this Superman.

 

[SuperDaniel]

One thing people are forgetting is that ET, Terminator, Star Wars are their OWN creation so they can do whatever the hell they want with their proprierties. SUPERMAN doesnt belong to Singer so THAT`S A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

 

[stargazer]

I don't think you quite get it - I'm a loner. In fact, I'm quite content to be in my own company. I'm quiet, restrained, and thoughtful (or so I think... which obvious means its false ). Superman is those things. He is indeed isolated and alone, in a way no human can ever truly be. If you were the last human alive, and lived on another world, then wouldn't you feel alone and somewhat isolated?

Superman feels that isolation, but in the end, he overcomes it. In the same way that Batman is about overcoming the demons of one's past and the darkness therein, Superman is about overcoming the loneliness of being somwhere that is not his home. He is an immigrant, someone who has to wrestle with being away from all that is truly his, even if he doesn't remember it himself. Kal-El is alien, and Superman is about overcoming that alienation that naturally occurs (whether we want to admit it or not).

I don't need to read comic books to understand the essence of a character (I just need to spend two years here... oh, the irony ).

Great post, Wellsy!

You know? I'm so glad that there are others that feel the same way I do on this character, and on SR, a film that a really enjoy. It makes me feel less alone. Thanks.

 

[stargazer]

Indeed the irony, you state it yourself yet attempt to protect Singers warperd version. He overcomes it that been the key phrase, Superman is indeed an alien something he never tries to hide. Its part of his history and he embraces it but yet he feels like just one of us, his powers or abilities dont define or make him who he is in the end his Jonathan and Marthas boy from the farm. Clark Kent/ KalEl is not an isolated self pitying individual neither is he a loner, In Singers version his only contact with humanity was through Lois Lane and that simply is not the case. Batman is isolated and lonely not Superman, it seems spending two years on here just doesnt cut it.t:

I disagree. He can never feel just like one of us, bucause he isn't. And those amazing powers indeed separate him from humanity in some ways. No one can really understand what he feels and experiences at being the most powerful man in the world. He is just beyond us in so many ways, even if he feels like one of us. And that makes him really interesting.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Well, for instance, 'some of these individuals' say that the plane rescue is a huge gay allegory... the plane representing a huge penis... unbelivable, I know. I read this at the CBR forums. I can provide a link if requested.

LOL!!!! That is messed up.

 

[Freddy_Krueger]

One thing people are forgetting is that ET, Terminator, Star Wars are their OWN creation so they can do whatever the hell they want with their proprierties. SUPERMAN doesnt belong to Singer so THAT`S A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

Batman didn't belong to Tim Burton, but that didn't stop him from projecting his own personality and psychology to Batman and Batman Returns--films that, though comic purists will deny it, pleased the masses.

 

[Double Down]

So anyone who doesn't like SR or wants reboot doesn't use logic and over blows elements they didn't like? That's an unfair statement.

I prefer a reboot and I never used the singerman or deadbeat names fyi.

Since I wasn't clear enough, I apologize. When I mention the "reboot parrots" I am talking specifically about those who support a reboot, but repeat the exact same crap over and over using "buzzwords" such as singerman, deadbeat dad, stalkerman peeps, etc. I was not talking about everyone who supports a reboot. I don't group all reboot supporters into one group per se, because there are all kinds in that group. Some are really bad people who spew hate and others are simply misguided .
I hate it when everyone who wants a sequel is grouped into one group, such as everyone who wants a sequel being called a SingerPuppet. I liked the movie, pure and simple. That certainly doesn't mean Singer pulls my strings. In fact, it is infinitely more important to me that Routh returns than Singer does. I want Singer back, but I really want Routh back. And yet I am called a SingerPuppet.

 

[SatEL]

Why not? I think it's valid to explore that side of Superman. He is a lonely saviour. Singer just expanded on the theme presented in STM when Lara tells Jor-El that he (baby Kal-El) will be different to the people of Earth, that he will feel alone and isolated. Do you remember those scenes? I think it brings a new layer and more depth to the character, and makes him much more interesting and real. He becomes more than a pretty face beside a train or an action figure that punches things. At least, it made me care for this Superman.

I repeat Superman isn't about brooding Batman is. Batman is also angsty, alone and alienated Superman is not. Superman is a mostly happy, well adjusted guy, surrounded by friends and family. Superman isnt Jesus there wasnt a prophecy that stated his arrival. He doesnt view himself as a saviour more like a bridge to help humanity reach that final destination. Singer took what Donner had established and blew it out of proportion.

 

[SatEL]

I disagree. He can never feel just like one of us, bucause he isn't. And those amazing powers indeed separate him from humanity in some ways. No one can really understand what he feels and experiences at being the most powerful man in the world. He is just beyond us in so many ways, even if he feels like one of us. And that makes him really interesting.

And there you go, despite what is stated and despite his great power he does view himself as nothing but a man with abilities. I know SR alluded to something else but he isnt Jesus neither is he god.

 

[Double Down]

I repeat Superman isn't about brooding Batman is. Batman is also angsty, alone and alienated Superman is not. Superman is a mostly happy, well adjusted guy, surrounded by friends and family. Superman isnt Jesus there wasnt a prophecy that stated his arrival. He doesnt view himself as a saviour more like a bridge to help humanity reach that final destination. Singer took what Donner had established and blew it out of proportion.

I take it you don't want Waid or Meltzer to do the movie either.

To understand Superman, Meltzer says, you have to know why Superman was created in the first place — because a young Jerry Siegel’s father was shot and killed in 1932 (a fact first uncovered by Gerard Jones in “Men of Tomorrow: Geeks, Gangsters and the Birth of the Comic Book”).
“Superman was created not because America is the greatest country on earth, not because Moses came to save us from Krypton, but because a little boy lost his father,” Meltzer said. “In his first appearances, he couldn’t fly. He didn’t have X-ray vision. He was only bulletproof. So Superman’s not a character built out of strength, but out of loss.”
“When you hear that, it puts on a whole new spin on Superman and his origins,” Waid said. “The understanding was that Batman was born out of traged and Superman out of hope and aspiration, and it turns out that it’s about not wanting to lose your loved ones. That’s critical, and it means that we can connect with him. He’s not an untouchable character. Bad things still happen to him. His father passes away, and his powers can’t save him.”
“It is so much deeper than, ‘He’s an alien with superpowers,’” Meltzer said. “I never wanted to write a Superman movie before, but I do now. I understand what Superman is now.”

 

[SatEL]

I take it you don't want Waid or Meltzer to do the movie either.

To understand Superman, Meltzer says, you have to know why Superman was created in the first place — because a young Jerry Siegel’s father was shot and killed in 1932 (a fact first uncovered by Gerard Jones in “Men of Tomorrow: Geeks, Gangsters and the Birth of the Comic Book”).
“Superman was created not because America is the greatest country on earth, not because Moses came to save us from Krypton, but because a little boy lost his father,” Meltzer said. “In his first appearances, he couldn’t fly. He didn’t have X-ray vision. He was only bulletproof. So Superman’s not a character built out of strength, but out of loss.”
“When you hear that, it puts on a whole new spin on Superman and his origins,” Waid said. “The understanding was that Batman was born out of traged and Superman out of hope and aspiration, and it turns out that it’s about not wanting to lose your loved ones. That’s critical, and it means that we can connect with him. He’s not an untouchable character. Bad things still happen to him. His father passes away, and his powers can’t save him.”
“It is so much deeper than, ‘He’s an alien with superpowers,’” Meltzer said. “I never wanted to write a Superman movie before, but I do now. I understand what Superman is now.”

*Sighs* Isnt that statement more in favour of what I am stating.

 

[Double Down]

*Sighs* Isnt that statement more in favour of what I am stating.

No. Not really.
You say: "Superman isn't about brooding Batman is. Batman is also angsty, alone and alienated Superman is not. Superman is a mostly happy, well adjusted guy, surrounded by friends and family."

They say: "Superman’s not a character built out of strength, but out of loss ... The understanding was that Batman was born out of tragedy and Superman out of hope and aspiration, and it turns out that it’s about not wanting to lose your loved ones."

How is that the same?

 

[SatEL]

No. Not really.
You say: "Superman isn't about brooding Batman is. Batman is also angsty, alone and alienated Superman is not. Superman is a mostly happy, well adjusted guy, surrounded by friends and family."

They say: "Superman’s not a character built out of strength, but out of loss ... The understanding was that Batman was born out of tragedy and Superman out of hope and aspiration, and it turns out that it’s about not wanting to lose your loved ones."

How is that the same?

Lord have mercy, Its clear you havent quiet picked up what Waid means. It has no relation to the behaviour or characteristic of Superman but more to do with the formation and creation of the character (Besides this might just be an assumption he has based on occurences in Siegel's early life).

 

[Double Down]

Lord have mercy, Its clear you havent quiet picked up what Waid means. It has no relation to the behaviour or characteristic of Superman but more to do with the formation and creation of the character (Besides this might just be an assumption he has based on occurences in Siegel's early life).

That's a nice attitude you have there. You are pretty high and mighty. But it's clear you "might just" have an "assumption" of what he is thinking, too. Or did you talk to him? How does what he is saying back up what you have said?

 

[SatEL]

That's a nice attitude you have there. You are pretty high and mighty. But it's clear you "might just" have an "assumption" of what he is thinking, too. Or did you talk to him? How does what he is saying back up what you have said?

Please please please can someone please explain to this guy please anyone. It's not rocket science his statement is preety easy to interpret. Perhaps you missed what he was refering to if so fair enough but your persistence and attempt to twist things is starting to annoy me so I will leave you in the capable hands of another to explain things to you.

 

[SatEL]

That's a nice attitude you have there. You are pretty high and mighty. But it's clear you "might just" have an "assumption" of what he is thinking, too. Or did you talk to him? How does what he is saying back up what you have said?

Oh almost forgot, well as you can see he clearly disagrees with the whole saviour theme that ran rampant in Returns.

 

[Double Down]

The savior part of the conversation doesn't interest me. If I confused you by having this "Superman isnt Jesus there wasnt a prophecy that stated his arrival" as part of what I quoted I apologize. But that doesn't account for your attitude. "Lord have mercy' and "*Sighs*" really aren't necessary. I certainly didn't come at you in that manner.

 

[KaptainKrypton]

One thing people are forgetting is that ET, Terminator, Star Wars are their OWN creation so they can do whatever the hell they want with their proprierties. SUPERMAN doesnt belong to Singer so THAT`S A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

No, Superman belongs to fully-loaded Saudis...but that's a whole separate issue.

 

[SatEL]

The savior part of the conversation doesn't interest me. If I confused you by having this "Superman isnt Jesus there wasnt a prophecy that stated his arrival" as part of what I quoted I apologize. But that doesn't account for your attitude. "Lord have mercy' and "*Sighs*" really aren't necessary. I certainly didn't come at you in that manner.

I am sorry if my comments seemed offensive, I apologise.

 

[Double Down]

We're cool then.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

If I were Singer I would have mostly did what I wanted do with Superman but I would have still thought about what the fans wanted and what would make the most money.

 

[SatEL]

We're cool then.

Yep.

 

[Pickle-El]

If I were Singer I would have mostly did what I wanted do with Superman but I would have still thought about what the fans wanted and what would make the most money.

Those 3 things are not mutually exclusive to one another. Sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't. Heck, you had the directors of TIH and Ghostrider directly talk to forum fans for their thoughts as an olive branch. How'd that go?

The reality is that Singer told the WB exactly what his plan was for the movie. It was no big surprise. The WB should have stepped in and mandated more action if they felt is wasn't enough. They didn't, and Singer went along with what he had planned all along.

It's very simple to say, I would have done this, and that....and fixed the other thing. You just don't know how a movie will behave once filming gets started. If there was a perfect forumla, as many of you suggest with your 1 + 1 = A Billion in boxoffice, it would be done. Movies like Posiedon and Speed Racer wouldn't happen. Blockbusters have the most unpredictable behavior.

Food for thought, considering how TDK played out, I wouldn't be surprised if the WB tried to emulate it in their approach to a sequel....or reboot to SR. I don't think Thomas Tull was anything but honest with his comments about not wanting to create anything but a special movie experience for everyone, not just Superman fans. I think they will look at TDK as the film that MOS needs to emulate....at least in regards to how action and story are balanced out.

 

[mojo-x]

Since I wasn't clear enough, I apologize. When I mention the "reboot parrots" I am talking specifically about those who support a reboot, but repeat the exact same crap over and over using "buzzwords" such as singerman, deadbeat dad, stalkerman peeps, etc. I was not talking about everyone who supports a reboot. I don't group all reboot supporters into one group per se, because there are all kinds in that group. Some are really bad people who spew hate and others are simply misguided .
I hate it when everyone who wants a sequel is grouped into one group, such as everyone who wants a sequel being called a SingerPuppet. I liked the movie, pure and simple. That certainly doesn't mean Singer pulls my strings. In fact, it is infinitely more important to me that Routh returns than Singer does. I want Singer back, but I really want Routh back. And yet I am called a SingerPuppet.

• Singerman, I have used this name before when talking about this movie, mostly because this version of Superman is so different form any version I have seen or read in any other media. I could use the SINO (Superman In Name Only) but Singerman just seems to fit so well. Also I put most of the blame for this horrible interpretation directly on Singer.
• Deadbeat Dad, until someone can prove to me that he plans on taking full responsibility and become a true father I will always see him as a deadbeat dad, because in my eyes anyone can have babies, but it take true hero to become a father.
• Stalkerman as I have said before if a super hero uses his powers to break miner laws for the greater good then I have no problem with that. Batman did it in TDK but that was to save lives, all it looked like to me he was doing was spying on an ex-girl friend.

You may see me as a “reboot parrot”, whatever frankly I do not care what any one here thinks of me, but at least I try and explain myself and my view points, rather then just leaving messages like “Singerman sucks”