Comics What power level should Jean return with?

Morrisons version of the Phoenix really streamlined it. He salvaged the original continuity (that Jean was Phoenix and its apart of her mutation), put the Classic X-Men backstories back in continuity, and used many of the retcon elements (other Phoenixes, Phoenix Consciousness, cocoon (now Phoenix Egg), replacements (now not literal, just being consumed by the Phoenix).
that may be the case but I dont like that he completely ignored X-factor and what happened with Jean there. It happened and its canon so he shouldnt have completly disregarded it as if it didnt exist. He definetly could have tied it into, all of what you just wrote, but he chose to pretend as if it hadnt occurred
 
I guess she returns with the power of a baby, wonder if she soils her diapers often...
 
They explained in New X-Men that Jean got her telekinesis back through secondary mutation..
Which was just plain stupid.
Morrison didn't really ignore continuity.
Yes. He did.
Morrison's New X-Men run seemed to define a Phoenix as someone with a mutation for Omega level telekinesis (extreme telekinetic sensitivity and telekinetic godhood) and perhaps omega telepathy too. The Phoenix power is in their blood, genes, and organs.

They are also connected to the Phoenix Consciousness that guides them and can consume them to do Phoenix Work. The Phoenix Consciousness can also help them sustain high power levels (cosmic reserves, cosmic power source) and dictate when they can resurrect. The Phoenix Consciousness may also be comprised of the collective Phoenixes themselves from the White Hot Room.

The White Hot Room is the afterlife inside the M'Kraan crystal, the nexus of realities. Phoenixes go there to do Phoenix Work while they wait to be reborn. The White Hot Room is like a hospital to the universe. Phoenixes heal and burn aspects of the universe as deemed necessary. They are like doctors to the universe or like the universe' immune system. They seem to be agents of creation and evolution.

Jean seemed to be special among the Phoenix Corp as a White Phoenix of the Crown.
Dumbest. Crap. Ever.
I'm sure he's STILL laughing at the joke he played on Quesada.
 
I guess she returns with the power of a baby, wonder if she soils her diapers often...

It'll take all of a year (real world time) for Jean to be an adult again, assuming the baby IS her.
 
^If it really turns out that she's the baby, Marvel really hit its head on this one.
 
Well it would be consistent if the Phoenix caused Jean to be reborn as a baby since it did this for Rachel once.

After Rachel's body was destroyed in battle with Necrom, Rachel was reborn as a baby and regrown into an adult with all of her memories intact.

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I guess a Phoenix can either be resurrected instantly, be reborn as a baby, or be reborn from a Phoenix Egg.

VictorVonDoomX-- did you just ignore the part where I explained that the White Hot Room (previously just called the afterlife), Jean's White Phoenix identity, and the Phoenix Consciousness all previously existed in continuity before Morrison's run. He simply used and expanded those aspects of continuity.

What continuity did he ignore?
 
VictorVonDoomX-- did you just ignore the part where I explained that the White Hot Room (previously just called the afterlife), Jean's White Phoenix identity, and the Phoenix Consciousness all previously existed in continuity before Morrison's run. He simply used and expanded those aspects of continuity.

What continuity did he ignore?
Yes, I ignored it as immaterial.

The only concept of the Phoenix that works is that is a singular trans-dimensional being. Singular. Not a "Queen of the foo foo legion" but a singular entity. Morrison = bad.
 
Yes, I ignored it as immaterial.

The only concept of the Phoenix that works is that is a singular trans-dimensional being. Singular. Not a "Queen of the foo foo legion" but a singular entity. Morrison = bad.

You, uh, kind of remind me of your namesake.

Except without the few good parts of Doom's mentality.

I kid, I kid. :woot:
 
Well it would be consistent if the Phoenix caused Jean to be reborn as a baby since it did this for Rachel once.

It's not about that. It's about making a huge event as Messiah Complex and has the conclusion that 90% of the readers are already suspecting about. That will make the whole hype lame and very very lame. I mean the 'predictable' part.
 
If/when Jean comes back, I want that to be advertised as an event about Jean coming back. Not some other event that has a Phoenixie ending.
 
The best explanation of the Phoenix was the original one...

"Her body was consumed by the intense radiation. But her mind refused to die. Driven by her love for Scott Summers, she achieved her full potential as a psi--becoming briefly an entity of pure thought--before finally reforming herself as Phoenix."

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Yes, I ignored it as immaterial.

The only concept of the Phoenix that works is that is a singular trans-dimensional being. Singular. Not a "Queen of the foo foo legion" but a singular entity. Morrison = bad.

Wait a minute! So you are saying that Morrison ignored continuity because he DID NOT ignore continuity that you personally deem immaterial!?

Well in the Classic X-Men #43 backstory, Claremont has Death explain to Jean that the Phoenix is neither a being nor entity but is just a force. Jean is an avatar of the force and thus it belongs to her and it is her unique gift to wield it and it will also come to her children.

The Force's form and consciousness when it encountered her was derived from Jean's imagination and perception according to Classic #8 and #43. Classic X-Men #6 showed Jean having a poster of a Phoenix raptor over her bed before she even became Phoenix and Classic #42 backstory showed Jean Grey as a powerful 11 year old with the "Phoenix" (raptor and golden woman forms) as an aspect of her subconscious mind before Xavier locked away her telepathy.

Of course Alan Davis retconned it to being Feron that shaped the Force and gave it consciousness.

And then he ended up saying that the Phoenix Consciousness was the collective consciousness of the future unborn. He had the Phoenix Consciousness take over Rachel's body to fight and talk with Galactus.

Morrison may have intended on it still being the future unborn but it seemed like the Phoenix Consciousness may have been the collective Phoenixes themselves, which while they were in the White Hot Room would be future unborn while they wait to be reborn.

In Morrison's view the Phoenix has a dual nature-- it is both the Phoenix avatars themselves and a higher cosmic consciousness. It has a destiny to create change/diversity in the universe by burning or healing as needed and the M'Kraan Crystal/White Hot Room is its base of operations. And of course a Phoenix dies to be reborn.

I can understand it if you didn't like the Phoenix Corp concept. Personally, I think only Jean should be Phoenix. But like I've said other creators had already made other Phoenixes (Feron, Necrom, Giraud, etc) and an aspect of the Phoenix had already been made into a collective consciousness. Davis had already made other Phoenix Force's derived from the base Phoenix Force such as the Anti-Phoenix. Now Brubaker has made the Blue Phoenix Force (a blue shadow echo of the Phoenix) that Rachel now wields.

Now theres a collective Consciousness, multiple Phoenix avatars, and even multiple Phoenix Forces'.

Heck people complain about the Phoenix Fragments storyline in Endsong and Warsong but the Phoenix was fragmented in the Feron-Necrom-Rachel story in Excalibur and in Inferno too.

After Endsong, the Phoenix Corp members probably could be re-interpreted as just having the missing pieces of Jean/Phoenix in them.

The best thing that came out of Morrison's and Pak's stories is that Jean Grey is a Phoenix through mutation, is One with the Phoenix Force, and is special even if there are other Phoenixes.

Jean can also still be a Phoenix and manifest the raptor and power levels without being connected to the Force/Consciousness.

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And as long as it stays that way and is retconned yet again, she will never be around for long. That's why 90's Jean was so much better, she didn't have all that mystic White Hot Room crap as luggage
 
Well the Phoenix (ever since it was changed to being more than just Jean's expanded powers) is a mysterious, abstract, and transcendent concept. And we just have to accept that.

Even creators such as Claremont, Davis, and Pak haven't always been consistent with their own versions of the Phoenix mythos.

But it is an important and special aspect of the Jean Grey character and her history. I think even fans that prefer the retcon version or Marvel Girl version of Jean would have to admit that. Its apart of her most famous and defining story as well as among her most recognizable and unique iconic imagery. Even at the height of the 86' retcon she sometimes manifested Phoenix raptors and some characters would refer to her connection to the Phoenix power and identity.

She manifested a Phoenix Raptor in X-Factor #6 (when hers tk shield expanded and the fire bounced off as a raptor), Marvel Universe Presents #15, Uncanny X-Men #273, X-Men #53, and X-Men #71. Between Inferno and Judgment Wars she had a spark of the Phoenix Force in her too. Characters like Death, Apocalypse, Onslaught, and the Stranger referred to her connection to the Phoenix.

Plus most of her children and clones have, had, or have been hinted to have some connection to the Phoenix power as well. So it never made sense when they tried to act like she didn't especially since the others had their connection because they were related to her.

Jean Grey at late 90s power levels would be nice...

From Uncanny X-Men #355

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From Wolverine #125

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From Astonishing X-Men #2

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then what about Jean's body being placed in a coccoon in the bottom of Jamaica Bay following hte radiation trip from space and teh Avengers finding her years later? X-factor explained that as Jean healing from her injuries while Phoenix I was a cosmic being who recreated itself in Jean's image but made it clear that it was not Jean. Morrison came and wrote for her but completely ignored that and had characters speaking about Phoenix I as if it was Jean and made no distinction between the two. This was made even worse when just a few months earlier in UXM 387, it was once again written that Phoenix I was not Jean. He chose to ignore that issue altogether. This all may have been alright, had he explained it but he simply ignored what had been developed with Jean since her return. Retcons can be bad as it is, but I think retconning retcons is worse bc it creates one big inconsistent clusterf--k and thats what Morrison did when he opened up this can of worms
 
Oh you need to read the Classic X-Men #8 backstory then....

Jean Grey is Not replaced by the Phoenix Force as shown in Classic #8. She summons the Force and her imagination and perception influences it so that it can communicate and interact with her. Yet it also says that it knew of her since her conception (and we will see later in Classic #42 that it was apart of her childhood mind). It tells her that the new body is just a shell and to take its hand so that they may become One.

Once they take hold of each others hands and become One, Jean realizes that there is a spark of her soul still left in her original body and places it in a healing cocoon just in case things go wrong.

They show them take hands and theres also a panel where the Force explains to Jean that the new body is just a shell for her. This story shows that most of Jean becomes One with the Phoenix and therefore is transferred to the new body except for a spark of her soul that refuses to go.

We will see later in Classic #43 that after she speaks to Death, some of her energy and consciousness goes back to the original body in the cocoon and some goes to Madelyne. Of course some of the energy found Rachel as well. Of course Jean's original body in the cocoon rejects some of the energies but she gets it back in Inferno (and expels some of it in Judgment Wars).

Jean wasn't suppose to remember her talk with Death. Death mentions that the mosaic of her life had more pieces than she realized and that she had lessons she had to learn the hard way.

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then what about Jean's body being placed in a coccoon in the bottom of Jamaica Bay following hte radiation trip from space and teh Avengers finding her years later? X-factor explained that as Jean healing from her injuries while Phoenix I was a cosmic being who recreated itself in Jean's image but made it clear that it was not Jean. Morrison came and wrote for her but completely ignored that and had characters speaking about Phoenix I as if it was Jean and made no distinction between the two. This was made even worse when just a few months earlier in UXM 387, it was once again written that Phoenix I was not Jean. He chose to ignore that issue altogether. This all may have been alright, had he explained it but he simply ignored what had been developed with Jean since her return. Retcons can be bad as it is, but I think retconning retcons is worse bc it creates one big inconsistent clusterf--k and thats what Morrison did when he opened up this can of worms

It already was a clusterf--k. Try reading the original Phoenix story, the '86 retcon, the Classic X-Men backstories, Inferno, the Excalibur Phoenix stories, Revolution, Hidden Years, and X-Men Forever.

And now we can add Morrison's run, Endsong, Warsong, and the stuff in Rise and Fall and Emperor Vulcan.

X-Men Forever tried to say that the Jean/White Phoenix in Classic #43 was the Phoenix Force that replaced Jean and that Death had explained to it why it had replaced her (although thats not what the actual story was about as Death talked to Jean about the Phoenix).....

But then in X-Men Forever, Jean goes back in time and replaces the Phoenix that replaced her, to meet Death thus making it the real Jean all along in that story. :wow:

And they also have Death comment on how both times he met her was the same time. :huh:

X-Men Forever also tried to rename and redefine the Phoenix Force as the Resurrection Force and that its purpose is to create life from death.

Prosh hints in X-Men Forever that when Jean's body was in the cocoon her mind was somewhere else...

Another problem with this interpretation is that in Excalibur #25, Claremont had Death appear to Rachel and mention his meeting with Jean in Classic #43 so it had already been put in continuity. Death tells Rachel that Jean chose to give up the Phoenix power then.

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Of course Alan Davis ignores this and Claremont's Classic Backstories later on in Excalibur and retcons over Rachel's original origin too. At first it was that Rachel's mother had been a Jean that became Phoenix and that Rachel got the Phoenix power from Jean's essence in the holo-empathic crystal. Davis changed it to that Rachel's mother had never became Phoenix and that the Phoenix Force thought Rachel was Jean when she came into the timestream and then possessed her and gave her false memories.

Yet Davis also writes in X-Men #97 that Jean had ascended to godhood on her own once when he had Cyclops reflect on Jean's original transformation into Phoenix.

Uncanny X-Men #387 did acknowledge the retcon and thats the most Claremont has ever acknowledged it. He also ignored Inferno. On comics-Fan Claremont explained that the editors told him to acknowledge the retcon and told him to ignore Inferno too.

In the story Jean comments as if she has no memories of the Phoenix and just knows of it from records. Yet when she mindlinks with StarHammer their memories combine and she relives the experience from both Dark Phoenix's perspective and the Shiars. But wait where did those memories come from? Jean also acknowledges that she summoned the force and allowed their souls to merge.

So Claremont snuck in a little bit of his version of the continuity. In #381 he had the characters talk as if Jean had been the original Phoenix. He wrote the Classic Backstories to salvage his original story and to show despite the '86 retcon the real Jean had in fact been Phoenix and had an intimate connection to the power.

Jean had relived the Dark Phoenix experience and the deaths of her victims in Classic #43 and when her original body in the cocoon received some of the Phoenix energies (thats why she rejected it).

Even by the most extreme view of the retcon the Phoenix had still absorbed a portion of Jean's consciousness and later returned this to her in Inferno. At the very least a part of the real Jean had been Phoenix. It didn't just simply copy or pretend to be her or anything like that.

There are literally captions in X-Men Forever that say "When Jean become Phoenix..." or when she bonded with the Phoenix.. and when she uses the Phoenix Force to meet Eternity it talks about how she had tried to forget what it felt like AND captions that say "Jean was not the Phoenix....or that she had been replaced by it...

I asked Nicieza about this through email once and he told me that was because according to the continuity Jean Grey both had been Phoenix and had not been Phoenix. Basically the continuity is so convoluted and some of it is so starkly contradictory that it can't be fully reconciled. Greg Pak even commented in one interview that the Phoenix continuity contained direct contradictions.

I think Claremont in his Classic X-Men backstories and Grant Morrison in his New X-Men made the greatest attempts at reconciling the Phoenix continuity. Pak made a nice effort in Endsong too.
 
ok...this is all waay too confusing and complicated to explain and read through....someone needs to taken an entire eraser to every Phoenixy story AFTER DPS and start afresh...because this is bull****
 
Thats why I don't understand it when people act like Morrison made it confusing or convoluted.

He simplified it. It had been WAY more convoluted and confusing in the past.

They just need to stick with the versions by Claremont and Morrison.

The original Phoenix sagas, the Classic X-Men backstories, and New X-Men were the best Phoenix stories. Endsong was kinda ok.

Claremonts stories with Rachel were kinda ok too.

But most of the others have been bad.

Also the Phoenix doesn't have to be a story or a plot device it can just be Jean's or Rachel's power signature like in Seagles run and Revolution for Jean and for Reload for Rachel before she got the Blue force.

I prefer it to mostly just be Jean's power signature with just the occasional cosmic story.
 
...except I never read Classic X-Men...i always thought it was just a companion series and was never really important....kinda like X-Men Unlimited
 
...except I never read Classic X-Men...i always thought it was just a companion series and was never really important....kinda like X-Men Unlimited
I thought it was less than X-men Unlimted bc at least XMU took place in present continuity. I thought Classic X-men was just a rehash of old tales, somethimes adding a new persepctive.

BTW, thanks ChaosJosh for taking the time to type all of that. I still wish Morrison had not done what he did with Jean and Phoenix in New X-men bc she is where she is right now bc of it and thats limbo
 
We all know she coming back someday. So what power level would you like to see her return with?

1. Possessing NO mutant abilities

.

And I want her to Start with the Babymaking and repopulate the Gray clan.
Give it a twist,.. make her husband the Scott Summers from another Universe who was NEVER a mutant.

Yea,.. I expect I'm in the minority,... But I want the X-men to move forward,...


Jean is the past.

V.
 

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