Comics What power level should Jean return with?

[Abaddon]

I figure it's more complicated then that.

 

[Havok83]

I didn't say she was über powerful during Morrison's crap, I mean run, I merely said I didn't like that they brought back the story in such a convoluted way, ignoring continuity and making no true sense at all.

I know what you mean. I hate taht Morrison completely ignored the X-factor retcon which was poignant to the character for teh past 15 years since resurrection

 

[Abaddon]

the X-Factor retcon cheapened the end of the Phoenix Saga.

 

[Havok83]

the X-Factor retcon cheapened the end of the Phoenix Saga.

maybe but it had been more than 20 years since that happened. There was no need to go back to it, especially since Jean existed for 15 years based on her X-factor resurrection. Morrison opened up pandora's box and created a big clusterf--k that have given other writers the oppurtunity to further muck it all up, especially the nonsensce that came out of Endsong

 

[Valechan]

Not only that, she didn't have any tk prior to his run and suddenly she shows up with tk? and no explanaton as to why her astral form wasn't black like it was before? the whole Jean/Betsy thing was never truly explained, and he just ignored it. That made me very angry

 

[Valechan]

And Warsong don't forget the crappy mess Warsong was

 

[Havok83]

Not only that, she didn't have any tk prior to his run and suddenly she shows up with tk? and no explanaton as to why her astral form wasn't black like it was before? the whole Jean/Betsy thing was never truly explained, and he just ignored it. That made me very angry

I blame CC for not explaining the whole Betsy/Jean thing. I never understood why he did that. Psylocke benefited but what did Jean get? She was already a strong telepath and I didnt see her any stronger under CC's pen.

And Warsong don't forget the crappy mess Warsong was

Id rather forget that. Worst depiction of the Phoenix Ive seen

 

[Valechan]

Id rather forget that. Worst depiction of the Phoenix Ive seen

Worse than Korvus' Phoenix Blade?

 

[Havok83]

Worse than Korvus' Phoenix Blade?

yes Warsong is the worst. At least the Korvus stuff was just a small part of a bigger story so it wasnt overwhelming unlike Warsong. At least they didnt drag Jean into that crapfest. Im scared though of what they will do to its sequel whenever it drops

 

[OutcryX]

I thought Jean always had Tk and telepathy??

 

[Havok83]

I thought Jean always had Tk and telepathy??

Oh, no, no. Original, Jean only had TK. That was her only power from Uncanny X-men 1 to around UXM 41ish. She gained TP then and it was originally stated that Xavier was able to share a portion of his TP with her before they rewrote it and made her a full TP by giving her the backstory with Annie and that she had her TP supressed all those years. She was a TP/TK character until she died in the DPS.

Jean returned 5 years later but without her TP. She remained a TK mutant for the majority of her X-factor run (X-factor 1-65) and only got her TP restore towards the end. Jean remained a TP/TK character for the rest of the 90s and thats how most have knwon her as. However when Claremont returned in 2000, he stripped away her TK, gave it to Psylocke and gave Psylockes TP to Jean, thus augmenting it. That only lasted a year as by the time Morrison took over New X-men, Jean was once again TP/TK

 

[Manic]

By the time she became Dark Phoenix she had Silver Surfer shaking in his boots.

But she only gets really powerful after eating a lot of solar energy. Dark Phoenix was at her strongest after eating that star. In Morrison's run, she didn't get a lot of power until she and Logan flew into the sun. Even in Claremont's 'The End' story, Jean only got a boost in power after being exposed to a solar flare.

Like I said before, just keep Jean from eating any suns, and she'll be alright.

 

[Abaddon]

She had various cosmic/mystic type entities sense her before she ate the sun. She only become more dangerous after chowing down, not more powerful.

 

[Manic]

Either way, putting her on a diet is the perfect way to bring her back.

 

[Valechan]

So a female character can only come back if she's on a diet? That's sooooo wrong

 

[ChaosJosh]

They explained in New X-Men that Jean got her telekinesis back through secondary mutation.

Morrison didn't really ignore continuity. Remember Claremont had already de-retconned the retcon in his Classic X-Men backstories (8, 42, and 43) which were published between 1986 and 1990 and showed that the real Jean Grey had in fact been Phoenix and that she had a very intimate connection with the Phoenix Force.

Morrison used elements from the Classic X-Men Backstories such as the White Hot Room which is a renamed version of Claremont's afterlife in Classic X-Men #43 backstory. Jean being a White Phoenix also came from the Classic X-Men #43 backstory.

Morrison reinterpreted the cocoon into a Phoenix Egg. Claremont had also reinterpreted the cocoon concept in his Classic X-Men #8 backstory (in that Jean herself put her original body into a cocoon with a spark of her soul still inside just in case things went wrong). Both Morrison and Claremont re-interpreted the replacements as not being literal.

Morrison also used the "Phoenix Consciousness" which is a term and concept that was first used in Davis' Excalibur run.

Morrison's New X-Men run seemed to define a Phoenix as someone with a mutation for Omega level telekinesis (extreme telekinetic sensitivity and telekinetic godhood) and perhaps omega telepathy too. The Phoenix power is in their blood, genes, and organs.

They are also connected to the Phoenix Consciousness that guides them and can consume them to do Phoenix Work. The Phoenix Consciousness can also help them sustain high power levels (cosmic reserves, cosmic power source) and dictate when they can resurrect. The Phoenix Consciousness may also be comprised of the collective Phoenixes themselves from the White Hot Room.

The White Hot Room is the afterlife inside the M'Kraan crystal, the nexus of realities. Phoenixes go there to do Phoenix Work while they wait to be reborn. The White Hot Room is like a hospital to the universe. Phoenixes heal and burn aspects of the universe as deemed necessary. They are like doctors to the universe or like the universe' immune system. They seem to be agents of creation and evolution.

Jean seemed to be special among the Phoenix Corp as a White Phoenix of the Crown.

Pak defined the Phoenix a bit differently in Phoenix Endsong. He said that some objects or beings are Shells for the Phoenix. A shell is simply being used by the Phoenix and will burn out. Omega psychics are Hosts for the Phoenix and they can control and wield the Phoenix. Jean was seemingly more than a Host or Shell as she was One with the Phoenix and was its Heart and Self. When a Phoenix dies, they shatter into billions of pieces. The White Hot Room is a place for them to go and heal, collect their pieces, and wait to be reborn.

 

[OutcryX]

thanks for the explanation...that wasn't complicated or convoluted at all....it all is so much clearer and makes so much more sense now... t:

 

[Valechan]

Morrison sucks and everything he wrote too

 

[Manic]

I will admit that reinterpreting the cocoon into an egg was a good idea. In mythology, when a phoenix burns away and dies, it lays an egg in its ashes. The egg has a new phoenix inside. When Jean died over Jamaica Bay, the Phoenix left an "egg" on the bottom. When Dark Phoenix died on the moon, it left an egg up there (hence the egg in Here Comes Tomorrow).

 

[Valechan]

Here Comes tomorrow. aka Earth 15104 an ALTERNATE REALITY

 

[Manic]

An alternate reality that's responsible for Scott currently dating Emma.

 

[Valechan]

But ALternate nonetheless

 

[OutcryX]

i see why Quesada won't bring her back. nobody, not the fans, writers, or editors can decide what to do with her and her Claremont created crutch.....let her stay dead...and make it permanent like Bucky...oh wait...um...gwen...no....ah yes, Batman's parents, yeah, dead like them

 

[HandOfFate]

i see why Quesada won't bring her back. nobody, not the fans, writers, or editors can decide what to do with her

For real, reading that made my head hurt.

 

[ChaosJosh]

I thought Morrison's New X-Men was great. It was one of the most creative, witty, and intelligent X-Men runs. It had themes and subtexts running through out it (tearing through self deceptions, new v. old, post-humanism, mutant culture etc).

Anyways Here Comes Tomorrow was a possible future that had the same history as 616 up until New 150 and it was the real 616 Jean that woke up in the HCT future and then cut it away from the White Hot Room.

It always amazes me how fans didn't know that the White Hot Room existed in continuity before Morrison's run. He only named it, added the Phoenix Corp, and officially put it in the M'Kraan Crystal.

The WHR is the same place as Claremont had Jean go as White Phoenix in Classic 43. Its a space like realm with floating towers. When beings die they go to the afterlife and exist in the towers. The Phoenix exists outside the towers to "craft her chaos from without and within".

Claremont had also established that there was a White City inside the M'Kraan Crystal. When he had Jean heal the M'Kraan Crystal she felt connected to it.

So Morrison just combined these concepts and added some of his own spin. Like I said Jean being a White Phoenix and there being a Phoenix Consciousness also came from previously continuity.

The sad thing was that a lot of fans didn't know that.

Morrisons version of the Phoenix really streamlined it. He salvaged the original continuity (that Jean was Phoenix and its apart of her mutation), put the Classic X-Men backstories back in continuity, and used many of the retcon elements (other Phoenixes, Phoenix Consciousness, cocoon (now Phoenix Egg), replacements (now not literal, just being consumed by the Phoenix).

Its Simple. Lets take Jean for example.

Jean has a mutation that makes her a Phoenix. She is connected to the Phoenix Consciousness that tries to compel her to burn away what doesn't work. When she dies she either instantly resurrects or goes to the White Hot Room to do Phoenix Work and return later through a Phoenix Egg.