Silver Souper
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^ don't let miranda catch you speculating on anything origin related 
The Dark Knight What the sides and filming point to as plot/JOKER
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Miranda Fox
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^ don't let miranda catch you speculating on anything origin related
Speculate all you want - I just don't agree with you.
Silver Souper
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how about this: on the 1st and 3rd day ledger was spotted makeup-less (entry/takeover and exit of bank). only on the second day was he in makeup (probably filming the bank manager scene).
that works, yes? (minus the hair thing)
Miranda Fox
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Yup, that would be the case it seems.
NoName86
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Yup...and it just so happens that on the second day, when he had make up on, he wasn't in public too.
Silver Souper
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Miranda Fox
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Yay for content SS!
Seriously, I don't see an origin here. I could be wrong of course, but lets wait and see.
Maybe LR will actually give us a script review soon, like they promised and...oh, wait.
sasquatchs
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Hands up who'd prefer no explanation for Joker at all 
Silver Souper
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Yay for content SS!
Seriously, I don't see an origin here. I could be wrong of course, but lets wait and see.
Maybe LR will actually give us a script review soon, like they promised and...oh, wait.
yeah that script review should be up AT LEAST minutes before the film opens next year, following about 12 more false alarms. can't wait
FinchersGhost
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Miranda Fox
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yeah that script review should be up AT LEAST minutes before the film opens next year, following about 12 more false alarms. can't wait
Yup, that seems about right, sadly.
Miranda Fox
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Hands up who'd prefer no explanation for Joker at all
*raises*
Miranda Fox
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yeah that script review should be up AT LEAST minutes before the film opens next year, following about 12 more false alarms. can't wait
Speaking of scoops though, ISEB have hinted they have some to come and I trust them so hopefully, we shall know something soon.
FinchersGhost
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Where/when did ISEB say that??
Silver Souper
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Speaking of scoops though, ISEB have hinted they have some to come and I trust them so hopefully, we shall know something soon.
sounds good!
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FinchersGhost
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Cool. Thanks! Don't know how I missed that.
Miranda Fox
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It was shoved at the bottom of the Goyer interview - I actually missed it the first time as well.
N
nightwing_38116
Guest
A number of the sides deal with the scene being filmed in the post office/bank down Chicago way right now, while others hint at other plot elements. Intriguing stuff. I'm not sure if I can name my source... if you want to be named, send me another e-mail and I'm give you a mention.
Let me walk you through these script pages a little. This will obviously be riddled with spoiler material. And I've no idea if the order I've been given the pages in corresponds to the film or not...
FINAL SPOILER WARNING
The first page deals with four thugs in masks - clown masks, no less - preparing to break into a bank. Only two speak, and they're named Grumpy and Chuckles. I'm thinking that, under his mask, Chuckles is The Joker - even though he discusses The Joker in the third person, as though he isn't him. The scene is all dialogue, no action, but ends with a promise of blammo. Here's the bottom half of the page:
CHUCKLES
Don't forget the guy who planned the job.
GRUMPY
Yeah? he thinks he can sit it out and still take a slice - he's out of his mind.
CHUCKLES
You gonna tell him that?
Grumpy flashes a gun.
GRUMPY
Right after I put two in his heart.
CHUCKLES
If you can find his heart. Some say he ain't even human.
GRUMPY
You mean the chicken ****s who believe in ghost. That you?
CHUCKLES
Hey, guys harder than the both of us are afraid of him...
GRUMPY
Look, you wanna hang back and tell scary stories, be my guess. Just means a larger share for me.
CHUCKLES
You know what? You're onto something.
GRUMPY
What?
Chuckles aims his weapon at Grumpy.
CHUCKLES
Less guys. Larger shares.
And that's how that particular excerpt ends. Some pages later, however, these sides do return to the bank. This contains some serious spoiler material - indeed, a character gets offed.
One of these mask wearing goons is stuffing cash into a bag. He's interrupted by the manager, who seems to think he can intimidate the 'masked thug'. He obviously realises from the masks that these guys are in the employ of The Joker. What he doesn't realise soon becomes crystal clear:
BANK MANAGER (CONT'D)
You idiot. What makes you think the guy who hired you isn't going to kill you, too?
The Thug STOPS. Crouches over him. In the distance: SIRENS.
GENTLE VOICE
Call it a hunch.
The man PULLS off his MASK. The Bank Manager GASPS, horrified at the face staring back at him.
GENTLE VOICE (CONT'D)
It's rude to stare.
The bank manager doesn't last much longer... but he does get a little bit of speachifying in first:
BANK MANAGER
What are you? You freak. Criminals in this town used to believe in things. Honor. Respect. What do you believe in, huh? What do you bel-
Hmmm. Really not impressed with that line of dialogue myself... hard to see how it fits... but okay, I'll give the Nolans the benefit of the doubt for now. We'll later see how a bank manager ended up with this point of view, maybe.
So, how about that schoolbus we've seen inside the bank. It suggested to me that there was a hostage situation afoot. Was I correct? Another page seems to suggest I was.
The bus is surrounded by a Swat Team. The Joker appears to have collected all of his hostages in a large building with lots of glass windows - is this the bank? Very probably.
SWAT LEADER
We have clear shots on five subjects. Snipers take them out, smash the windows - a team rappels in, a team moves in by the stairwells. 2 or 3 casualties, max.
THE CHIEF
I think you're underestimating the situation, Sergeant.
SWAT LEADER
Maybe. But we either take'em now, or they dig in and things get complicated.
THE CHIEF
Complicated?
SWAT LEADER
Deadly, sir. Very.
The Chief nods.
THE CHIEF
Tell your men good luck.
SWAT LEADER
Red team, you're up. We're going in is sixty seconds.
So, a Swat team are heading into a booby trapped situation, I'm assuming. And it will take the batty chap to fish them out.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - the idea of a kind of 'Bat Day Afternoon' is a good one. Like Super Max taking the format of Alcatraz or, I suppose, Prison Break and retrofitting it with comic book logic, characters and events, doing the same with a hostage or heist movie has a lot of potential. Imagine Reservoir Dogs kicking off in Gotham City - things would have turned out very differently. And Batman does work well in that kind of context. It will be to the credit of the Nolans and Mr. Goyer if this is indeed the approach they've formulated.
The very next excerpt seems to suggest that parallels are being drawn between The Joker's reign of terror and America's fear of, well, real life terrorists. A move that reminds me of some ideas in Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, really.
The Mayor is taking calls on a radio show. We've heard this kind of thing too many times in the last few years:
CALLER (O.S.)
... hell, you got half the army on the streets - I wanna know when you're gonna catch the sonofa-
ENGEL
Okay. The guy's got a point - what can you say to people about their safety when this maniac's running around free?
MAYOR
The national Guard is here to reassure everyone that law and order is not under threat in this city. the Chief has assured me that -
You get the idea.
So what else goes down? Where else do we go? We go into a tense hostage situation (another one or an extension of the same one...? Hard to tell, but I'd guess it's a different set up entirely) onboard two ferries, one carrying prisoners, another civillians; we get to meet a wannabe Batman, dressing up in his own makeshift Bat costume and landing in a whole heap of trouble; and we meet Harvey Dent and his wife. There's more, too, some of it quite unexpected. But that's the end of this installment.
Let me walk you through these script pages a little. This will obviously be riddled with spoiler material. And I've no idea if the order I've been given the pages in corresponds to the film or not...
FINAL SPOILER WARNING
The first page deals with four thugs in masks - clown masks, no less - preparing to break into a bank. Only two speak, and they're named Grumpy and Chuckles. I'm thinking that, under his mask, Chuckles is The Joker - even though he discusses The Joker in the third person, as though he isn't him. The scene is all dialogue, no action, but ends with a promise of blammo. Here's the bottom half of the page:
CHUCKLES
Don't forget the guy who planned the job.
GRUMPY
Yeah? he thinks he can sit it out and still take a slice - he's out of his mind.
CHUCKLES
You gonna tell him that?
Grumpy flashes a gun.
GRUMPY
Right after I put two in his heart.
CHUCKLES
If you can find his heart. Some say he ain't even human.
GRUMPY
You mean the chicken ****s who believe in ghost. That you?
CHUCKLES
Hey, guys harder than the both of us are afraid of him...
GRUMPY
Look, you wanna hang back and tell scary stories, be my guess. Just means a larger share for me.
CHUCKLES
You know what? You're onto something.
GRUMPY
What?
Chuckles aims his weapon at Grumpy.
CHUCKLES
Less guys. Larger shares.
And that's how that particular excerpt ends. Some pages later, however, these sides do return to the bank. This contains some serious spoiler material - indeed, a character gets offed.
One of these mask wearing goons is stuffing cash into a bag. He's interrupted by the manager, who seems to think he can intimidate the 'masked thug'. He obviously realises from the masks that these guys are in the employ of The Joker. What he doesn't realise soon becomes crystal clear:
BANK MANAGER (CONT'D)
You idiot. What makes you think the guy who hired you isn't going to kill you, too?
The Thug STOPS. Crouches over him. In the distance: SIRENS.
GENTLE VOICE
Call it a hunch.
The man PULLS off his MASK. The Bank Manager GASPS, horrified at the face staring back at him.
GENTLE VOICE (CONT'D)
It's rude to stare.
The bank manager doesn't last much longer... but he does get a little bit of speachifying in first:
BANK MANAGER
What are you? You freak. Criminals in this town used to believe in things. Honor. Respect. What do you believe in, huh? What do you bel-
Hmmm. Really not impressed with that line of dialogue myself... hard to see how it fits... but okay, I'll give the Nolans the benefit of the doubt for now. We'll later see how a bank manager ended up with this point of view, maybe.
So, how about that schoolbus we've seen inside the bank. It suggested to me that there was a hostage situation afoot. Was I correct? Another page seems to suggest I was.
The bus is surrounded by a Swat Team. The Joker appears to have collected all of his hostages in a large building with lots of glass windows - is this the bank? Very probably.
SWAT LEADER
We have clear shots on five subjects. Snipers take them out, smash the windows - a team rappels in, a team moves in by the stairwells. 2 or 3 casualties, max.
THE CHIEF
I think you're underestimating the situation, Sergeant.
SWAT LEADER
Maybe. But we either take'em now, or they dig in and things get complicated.
THE CHIEF
Complicated?
SWAT LEADER
Deadly, sir. Very.
The Chief nods.
THE CHIEF
Tell your men good luck.
SWAT LEADER
Red team, you're up. We're going in is sixty seconds.
So, a Swat team are heading into a booby trapped situation, I'm assuming. And it will take the batty chap to fish them out.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - the idea of a kind of 'Bat Day Afternoon' is a good one. Like Super Max taking the format of Alcatraz or, I suppose, Prison Break and retrofitting it with comic book logic, characters and events, doing the same with a hostage or heist movie has a lot of potential. Imagine Reservoir Dogs kicking off in Gotham City - things would have turned out very differently. And Batman does work well in that kind of context. It will be to the credit of the Nolans and Mr. Goyer if this is indeed the approach they've formulated.
The very next excerpt seems to suggest that parallels are being drawn between The Joker's reign of terror and America's fear of, well, real life terrorists. A move that reminds me of some ideas in Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, really.
The Mayor is taking calls on a radio show. We've heard this kind of thing too many times in the last few years:
CALLER (O.S.)
... hell, you got half the army on the streets - I wanna know when you're gonna catch the sonofa-
ENGEL
Okay. The guy's got a point - what can you say to people about their safety when this maniac's running around free?
MAYOR
The national Guard is here to reassure everyone that law and order is not under threat in this city. the Chief has assured me that -
You get the idea.
So what else goes down? Where else do we go? We go into a tense hostage situation (another one or an extension of the same one...? Hard to tell, but I'd guess it's a different set up entirely) onboard two ferries, one carrying prisoners, another civillians; we get to meet a wannabe Batman, dressing up in his own makeshift Bat costume and landing in a whole heap of trouble; and we meet Harvey Dent and his wife. There's more, too, some of it quite unexpected. But that's the end of this installment.
itsthebatman
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And what's your source? Those are not your original thoughts, I've read that before.
My theory on what's going on:
As they shoot the scene during the daylight, whould it make sense for Batman to come up? No, and that's why Pre-Joker does crime in the morning/day. He doesn't want to get catched by Batman (by the sequel, every thief will be heard about Batman as night hunter for bad guys), but he wnats to tease him. So it would be very logical, if everything happened before the sunset. Also it would be intersting to see Joker (real Joker) to start killing people at night to get noticed by Batman as he wants to take the revenge after what happened with him.
Still, it's just a theory.
As they shoot the scene during the daylight, whould it make sense for Batman to come up? No, and that's why Pre-Joker does crime in the morning/day. He doesn't want to get catched by Batman (by the sequel, every thief will be heard about Batman as night hunter for bad guys), but he wnats to tease him. So it would be very logical, if everything happened before the sunset. Also it would be intersting to see Joker (real Joker) to start killing people at night to get noticed by Batman as he wants to take the revenge after what happened with him.
Still, it's just a theory.
Victarion
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RoryGotLaid was the first person banging on about Chuckles being the Joker
Hands up who'd prefer no explanation for Joker at all
:::but wait do you mean no explanation about the acid bath or no explanation to his former life at all? To me an 'origin' describes his former life. Either way, explaining the acid bath is pretty damn necessary for me. A mysterious clown-headed stranger works fine in the comics but NO WAY in a mainstream movie.
and seriously I'm willing to bet anyone $20 that a proper origin will appear, with the board as our witness.
DieSmiling
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Hands up who'd prefer no explanation for Joker at all
I've always wanted them to go this route. No one knows who he is, or where he came from. He's a total mystery.
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