Days of Future Past What you didn't like about X-Men:DOFP - Flaws/Critiques

[danoyse]

But then that argument can be applied to the point in which they were sent back. Mystique was still willing to shoot Trask even after everything she had learned because she was so angry about what he did to her mutant friends. If Wolverine had gone back earlier he could have warned them and stopped Trask altogether rather than going through all that angst.

No, because he still would have been experimenting on mutants. If Mystique hadn't killed him, another mutant could have. Or Trask would have captured Mystique anyway while mutants were being rounded up and he would have created the Sentinels.

A warning isn't enough. Hell, the fact that he'd already killed some of their own only amplified the point of how dangerous he was and how it was imperative that they stop (not just warn) Mystique, and show them, as Xaiver pointed out, "a better path."

Going to another time wasn't an option and a warning simply wasn't enough.

You're doing more retcon than Bryan Singer did in this entire movie. They sent him back specifically because his mind could heal as fast as it disintegrated. They explain it in the movie. It's all there in the characters' own words. Don't shoot the messenger.

No, the movie clearly shows that they don't know what will happen, or if Wolverine would actually survive, and that they had very little to do this. They simply couldn't afford to experiment sending him anywhere other than 1973.

 

[danoyse]

I've answered this already.

And it's a terrible answer.

No, it's not.

Yes, it clearly was.

The way they did it was even more nonsensical.

No! it wasn't.

 

[Nicky]

What are you even talking about? That's in the trailer (cut from the movie), but clearly from the same time period you're saying he shouldn't have gone to. They spend the entire second half of the movie warning her not to kill him, and it wasn't until she had a gun pointed at his head, with both Erik and Charles there, to finally make her understand that she had to put the gun down. In the end, it turned out they actually did need the both of them to make her understand.

The poster (can't remember their name) sarcastically said Wolverine telling Mystique she "will be a cold hearted biatch" would be a dumb idea and yet, that's what he did (before they cut it). They were acting as if that idea is so insane the writers wouldn't even come up with it yet they did. t:The only reason why it didn't work here is for the reasons I am going to explain again: her anger wouldn't allow her to respond to reason. Her rage came from the fact that Trask had murdered her friends. If they had sent Wolverine back before that happened they could have simply stopped Trask and she wouldn't be so motivated to kill him...

 

[danoyse]

Hey, I don't care that people don't agree with me. I'm cool, yo. t: The title of this thread is called "What you didn't like about X-Men: DOFP". The fact that I'm here having to defend the things I didn't like about the movie more or less proves that it's others who can't handle my opinion. The movie wasn't perfect. It just wasn't.

Oh lord, don't trip over the ego you're flashing.

No one is saying the movie is perfect. It's not. They're disagreeing with your idea of what would have been better, and now you're throwing yourself a nice little tantrum insisting everyone disagreeing with it just can't handle you...which just makes you look that much more ridiculous.

 

[Majik1387]

Nope, you're ascribing reasons and trying to deflect from the issue at hand. Nice try. The plot point simply didn't make sense.

I feel like you just learned the word ascribe today.
And again, I am not ascribing anything to you that you haven't flat out said yourself.

Yes, and it's as weak an argument as ever.

First, it's not an argument, it's an explanation.
Second, it's not as weak as your idea of Wolvie going back earlier in time.

But then that argument can be applied to the point in which they were sent back. Mystique was still willing to shoot Trask even after everything she had learned because she was so angry about what he did to her mutant friends. If Wolverine had gone back earlier he could have warned them and stopped Trask altogether rather than going through all that angst.

You clearly don't get it.

Stop Trask from what in the 60s? No one knew what he was doing in the 60s. No one even knows what triggered Trask to even design a Sentinel. Sending Wolvie back then could even be a reason Trask decided to design them.
Why would you send someone back in time to the 60s to stop something that starts in the 70s? You don't because it makes no sense.

Let's say you could time travel; Simple problem.
If you accidentally lost a finger on Thursday, you're not going to travel back to Tuesday to warn about it, you're gonna go back a little bit before the incident happened, because a warning from Tuesday is meaningless for something that you can just go stop yourself when it happens.

You're doing more retcon than Bryan Singer did in this entire movie. They sent him back specifically because his mind could heal as fast as it disintegrated. They explain it in the movie. It's all there in the characters' own words. Don't shoot the messenger.

I'm not doing any retcon, I'm explaining Singer's retcon. But now that you finally realize that this movie retconned a lot of issues you have with this movie in connecting with other movies continuities that have been retconned, I think you can stop now.

 

[danoyse]

The poster (can't remember their name) sarcastically said Wolverine telling Mystique she "will be a cold hearted biatch" would be a dumb idea and yet, that's what he did (before they cut it). They were acting as if that idea is so insane the writers wouldn't even come up with it yet they did. t:The only reason why it didn't work here is for the reasons I am going to explain again: her anger wouldn't allow her to respond to reason. Her rage came from the fact that Trask had murdered her friends. If they had sent Wolverine back before that happened they could have simply stopped Trask and she wouldn't be so motivated to kill him...

The poster was obviously using a name from the trailer in a hypothetical version of the terrible idea you're suggesting. The scene that was cut isn't what your proposed version is.

What aren't you getting here?

 

[Nicky]

And your opinion is apparently you rather be told not shown, which is a failure of Film 101.

Actually, my opinion is that they didn't show. They skipped.

I meant more of that it's settled because you have no basis to back your opinion.

Oh, I have basis. Whether or not you choose to accept it is your call.

They are erased from continuity, yes.

Really? Because I'm pretty sure that if I go to YouTube those clips from the previous movies are still there...

When Moore took over Bond, it was not a reboot. When Dalton took over Bond, it was not a reboot. When Brosnan took over Bond, it was not a reboot. Going by time frame of the Connery, to Moore, to Dalton, to Brosnan as Bond, it's pretty clear that they just updated Bond's story for each movie. Craig was the first real reboot Bond.

No, no, no. Your initial argument with this was about comic book movies/comics which is why you quoted several alternative universe Marvel comic books. Allow me to remind you:

Not really. Marvel comics, especially the X-Men series is known for having multi-verses. Age of Apocalypse, Exiles, Days of Future Past, Bishop's timeline, Nimrod, etc.

So switching it now to non comic book movies like Bond doesn't count.

The X-Men movies combined their First Class continuity with their X1-3 and Wolvie continuities, got rid of the problems and are moving forward without them. None of it was a simultaneous alternate universe.

And yet your original statement said it was.

Umm, no. I don't resent anything in this thread just so we're clear. If I see someone try to state something as a flaw when it isn't, odds are I will comment on it to explain it to said person.

Good for you. And I will carry on seeing them as flaws...

And I rolled my eyes a whole one time at your distaste for JFK being a mutant.

Exactly. The title of the read is called "what you didn't like about X Men". That was one of the things I didn't like and you threw a strop over it.

Learn to read properly.

lol you're so angry that you've resorted to petty insults. Ah, you gotta love the ********* t:

Your snark is lame; can't wait to see it get you in trouble.

No snark here. Just well reasoned, rational opinions on my part. Feel free to follow suit any time.

 

[Nicky]

No, because he still would have been experimenting on mutants. If Mystique hadn't killed him, another mutant could have.

Yes... except for the part where they didn't. Otherwise Mystique wouldn't have the opportunity to kill him in the first place.

Or Trask would have captured Mystique anyway while mutants were being rounded up and he would have created the Sentinels.

They could have all banded together and stopped him. Also, he needed permission to use the Sentinels - that's something you seem to be forgetting. So no, he wouldn't have because the president wouldn't approve especially because there would have been no mutant showdown between Erik and Raven to convince the government mutants were a threat.

Going to another time wasn't an option and a warning simply wasn't enough.

It was the best option possible.

No, the movie clearly shows that they don't know what will happen, or if Wolverine would actually survive, and that they had very little to do this. They simply couldn't afford to experiment sending him anywhere other than 1973.

Nope, this is fan-retcon.

 

[Nicky]

And it's a terrible answer.

It's the best answer given here.

Yes, it clearly was.

Wrong!

No! it wasn't.

Still wrong!

 

[Nicky]

Oh lord, don't trip over the ego you're flashing. No one is saying the movie is perfect. It's not. They're disagreeing with your idea of what would have been better, and now you're throwing yourself a nice little tantrum insisting everyone disagreeing with it just can't handle you...which just makes you look that much more ridiculous.

lol t: Oh do give up. You can't beat me in an argument and the reason why is because you're letting your emotions overwhelm you and resorting to name calling (which is what people do when they're losing an argument). I think you need to learn to 'Attack the argument, not the person' Saying I'm "ridiculous", and I "have an ego" won't change the fact that this is a movie breaking plot hole that dismantles the reason for DOFP entire existence.

 

[PunyGod]

...

 

[Nicky]

I feel like you just learned the word ascribe today.

lol t: so I "can't read", I'm "lame" and I only learned 'ascribe' today. Any other personal attacks and tantrums you wanna throw as you lose this argument?

First, it's not an argument, it's an explanation.

And it's not even that.

Second, it's not as weak as your idea of Wolvie going back earlier in time.

Oh, you mean the logical conclusion that would have prevented the coming events?

You clearly don't get it.

Got that the other way around, methinks.

Stop Trask from what in the 60s? No one knew what he was doing in the 60s.

Yes, that's why Wolverine would go back to tell them, dear. t:

No one even knows what triggered Trask to even design a Sentinel.

Mutants, perhaps?

Sending Wolvie back then could even be a reason Trask decided to design them.

No, because Trask would have already known about mutants. He knew about mutants before the rest of the world did. Furthermore, the issue isn't about whether he designs them. It's about whether he could get them approved. Additionally, it took Trask years to build those sentinels and he needed Mystique's blood to do it. In fact, Wolverine could have went back and tried to get Mystique into hiding.

Why would you send someone back in time to the 60s to stop something that starts in the 70s? You don't because it makes no sense.

Why would you send somebody back to the 70s to stop something that starts now? We could do this all day.

Let's say you could time travel; Simple problem.
If you accidentally lost a finger on Thursday, you're not going to travel back to Tuesday to warn about it, you're gonna go back a little bit before the incident happened, because a warning from Tuesday is meaningless for something that you can just go stop yourself when it happens

This is a very bad analogy, oh my God t: In DOFP there were a series of events that lead to Mystique wanting to kill Trask. Furthermore, losing a finger by accident is different to trying to change the mind of a person. If I go back to the moments before I lost my finger I can prevent the accident but with Mysiqtue, after all she's been through, there's no guarantee you could change her mind.

I'm not doing any retcon, I'm explaining Singer's retcon.

lol sorry, I'm just soaking this quote in.t:

But now that you finally realize that this movie retconned a lot of issues you have with this movie in connecting with other movies continuities that have been retconned, I think you can stop now.

It hasn't fixed anything, it even creates continuity errors of its own as I've demonstrated haha

 

[Nicky]

Changing something ten years earlier that leads to an event that leads to an event that leads to the assassination does not guarantee success. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend.

Yes, but the probability for success would have been much higher.

They did not have time to play guesswork here. They had to stop the one event that they knew for sure would change the future.

...And they threw themselves in at the most difficult time possible: "A time when we couldn't be further apart". Yep, that's a guarantee for success right there.

 

[PunyGod]

...

 

[Nicky]

NO. It absolutely would not. That doesn't even make sense. You are just trolling at this point.

Ding, ding, ding! We've reached the ultimate cliche forum diss. So far we've had:

Troll
Lame
Ridiculous
Ego
Can't read
Only learned what ascribed meant today

And some of it has been from a moderator! lol Can one believe a discussion about fictional characters can incite such rage? t:

The greatest probability for success is to stop the event itself and not worry about who is friends with who or how difficult a time it is.

It is when it actively delays you from carrying out your mission...

 

[PunyGod]

...

 

[Nicky]

Please stop with your discrimination complex.

Personal insults lobbied at me so far:
Troll
Lame
Ridiculous
Ego
Can't read
Only learned what ascribed meant today
Discrimination complex t:

I don't even think you understand the argument you are making at this point.There is no possible easier way to stop the future than to stop the assassination itself. This was made abundantly clear in the film. Going back to the old west and killing Raven's great grandmother is not the answer.

re BIB: Yep, and they could have stopped the assassination by going back before Trask murdered the mutants.

 

[PunyGod]

...

 

[Nicky]

What if Trask murdered other mutants?

What if Mystique found another reason to kill Trask?

What if what if what if

Now do you see the problem with your silly theory?

1) But he didn't. Those were the mutants he found that made him realised mutants existed...

2) She wouldn't. Because her reason for killing him would be gone.

3) What if?

4) I see you have problems understanding my theory, yes.

 

[PunyGod]

...

 

[Johnny-Oh]

...And they threw themselves in at the most difficult time possible: "A time when we couldn't be further apart". Yep, that's a guarantee for success right there.

I get the feeling that you got this idea/theory from someone else and you adopted it without giving it too much thought. Its pretty simple why they didn't send Wolverine to a different time, because they needed to stop that specific event and even if they failed they could manage to handle the direct consequences of it because they knew exactly what happened.

There were only 2 possible outcomes:

1-Xavier's plan was that him and Magneto would convince Mystique in the past, with both it wouldn't have been too hard.

2-Magneto had a hidden agenda, he knew that his past version would take the decision nobody else had the courage to take: To kill mystique.

By sending Wolvie earlier in time you open yourself to endless possibilities, possibilities that they wouldn't be able to control because they wouldn't know exactly how things would turn out. There is another problem: what other time period would you send him? Sending him in between the end of First Class and 1973 would mean that Magneto and Xavier would be in "A time when they couldn't be further apart" and sending him during the events of First Class would put in danger the outcome of that mission which they already succeeded originally.

 

[X-Maniac]

Some people in here - at least one, anyway - are ridiculously overcomplicating the issue!

Xavier knew that an assassination was the pivotal moment. So they sent Wolverine back to stop it. They also knew they had limited time before the Sentinels found them so it had to be a specific mission close to a key event that they were aware about, rather than some speculative mission to some earlier point.

Xavier didn't really know exactly why she carried out the assassination. He was at home in a depression - and remained at home in a depression for a lot longer in the original unaltered timeline. He had no knowledge of what Mystique was doing and why - because he was moping about in his room injecting himself. It was Wolverine's arrival that got him to snap out of his funk a lot earlier.

The only real certainty they had in the future was that they knew the assassination led to her being captured and her DNA being used to further develop the Sentinels.

 

[Nicky]

I get the feeling that you got this idea/theory from someone else and you adopted it without giving it too much thought.

If that's what you think then the rest of your post towards me is pointless...

Its pretty simple why they didn't send Wolverine to a different time, because they needed to stop that specific event and even if they failed they could manage to handle the direct consequences of it because they knew exactly what happened.

Wrong. If they failed they'd be dead. Remember, Wolverine is sent back to the past simultaneously as the mutants in the future are being destroyed.

There were only 2 possible outcomes:

1-Xavier's plan was that him and Magneto would convince Mystique in the past, with both it wouldn't have been too hard.

2-Magneto had a hidden agenda, he knew that his past version would take the decision nobody else had the courage to take: To kill mystique

Does this make any sense?

By sending Wolvie earlier in time you open yourself to endless possibilities, possibilities that they wouldn't be able to control because they wouldn't know exactly how things would turn out. There is another problem: what other time period would you send him? Sending him in between the end of First Class and 1973 would mean that Magneto and Xavier would be in "A time when they couldn't be further apart" and sending him during the events of First Class would put in danger the outcome of that mission which they already succeeded originally.

Oh dear. t:You need to read the entire thread before you post. People have already said the same thing you've said here (and better) and I've addressed them. Nobody has said to send them during the events of First Class so don't put arguments I haven't made into my mouth and then try to argue with them. If you read the millions of responses I've given about when to send them back you'd see that.

 

[Nicky]

Huh? He could have found that out in a 100 different ways.

Don't trail off. Your original point was 'what if Trask murdered other mutants?' This point is rendered invalid for the reason below:

And you know this because you asked her?

Mystique's reason for killing Trask wasn't political, it was personal. It was about revenge for what he did to her friends. Without that there would have been non assassination. The movie even highlights this in a heavy-handed way as she cycles through all the pictures of the mutilated X Men. If you don't see that after watching the movie perhaps you don't understand DOFP as well as you think you do.

No one knows every possibility. Thats why you go with what you know will work.

Does this make any sense?

I understand your theory quite well. I think the problem is that you don't.

I'm really amazed (and kind of flattered) that I'm still here having to defend what I didn't like about the movie t: You're never going to talk me out of this and it's evident by the fact that you have to keep repeating your arguments over and over again. Once again, in my opinion sending Wolverine back to that specific period was pure plot convenience. Period. Some die-hard DOFP fans don't want to accept anything negative said about the film because they're worried it would shatter this illusion of it being perfect. It's not. It's just one of the film's many flaws.

 

[Nicky]

Xavier knew that an assassination was the pivotal moment. So they sent Wolverine back to stop it. They also knew they had limited time before the Sentinels found them so it had to be a specific mission close to a key event that they were aware about, rather than some speculative mission to some earlier point.

Ha, you've highlighted another tremendous flaw with the movie! Stopping Mystique would have taken days/weeks right? Yet in the future Kitty Pryde and co are holding Wolverine under for like a few hours t: Cheers, I would have missed that otherwise!

Xavier didn't really know exactly why she carried out the assassination.

The older Xavier did which negates everything you've said here:

He was at home in a depression - and remained at home in a depression for a lot longer in the original unaltered timeline. He had no knowledge of what Mystique was doing and why - because he was moping about in his room injecting himself. It was Wolverine's arrival that got him to snap out of his funk a lot earlier.