Days of Future Past What you didn't like about X-Men:DOFP - Flaws/Critiques

[X-Maniac]

Ha, you've highlighted another tremendous flaw with the movie! Stopping Mystique would have taken days/weeks right? Yet in the future Kitty Pryde and co are holding Wolverine under for like a few hours t: Cheers, I would have missed that otherwise!

How do you know it's 'like for a few hours'? Where are you getting that from?

It's not a flaw at all. They had a mission to prevent a pivotal moment. What's so difficult to understand about that?

Time-travel movies are always prone to this sort of ridiculous dissection by people with too much time on their hands. Congratulations for joining that band of nitpickers.

The older Xavier did which negates everything you've said here

We don't know exactly how much older Xavier knew. He was the older version of the young Xavier in the original timeline who was in a depressive, drug-addled state at the time of the original assassination.

 

[Katara Rises]

Let me tell you what they REALLY should have done, for guaranteed, easy success.

They should have sent Wolverine back to the time around First Class, when Magneto, Xavier, and Mystique were all still friends. Wolverine should have told Xavier about Trask's Sentinels, and then let Xavier mind control Trask into destroying all his work about the Sentinels and make him not want to build them.

Afterwards, maybe Wolverine could have killed Trask in secret, after all his work has been destroyed, to guarantee he never, ever starts work on them again.


Of course, there would be no movie there.

 

[hoy-small-fry]

It would also be wildly out of character for everyone involved

 

[X-Maniac]

Again, my point has been missed. They could have warned Mystique and the others about Trask beforehand. Before the mutants were killed which lead to Mystique wanting to murder him. Before he even built the Sentinels. Furthermore, if they did we would have been able to have Emma Frost in this continuity but that's not gonna happen now.

They could, but they didn't.

Reasons?

1) They chose to focus in on a key event, as happens in all time-travel movies. It was a one-shot thing. But they chose to pick a key moment that led to Mystique's power being taken for use on the future Sentinels. Nothing wrong with that. Is Xavier's reasoning flawed? Maybe, but he's a human character and that was the choice his character made in those circumstances. Choices based on the knowledge he had, and driven by desperation. Maybe he didn't know when the Sentinels were first being built, when the deaths occurred in the past - at that point he was in a depression.

2) Mystique's whereabouts were unknown after Magneto went to prison. At least they knew she'd be at the Paris Peace Accords. It was a location where they knew they could find her and stop her

Are there elements of dramatic choice and narrative convenience? Sure, it's a 2-hour movie that needs to tell an exciting and interesting story!

For the film and its story, it makes sense. I've never heard anyone else question this to such a degree.

 

[Katara Rises]

It would also be wildly out of character for everyone involved

Was this a reply to me? If so, I don't really think so. I don't think Xavier using his powers to to make someone just destroy his work would be out of character, especially if it SAVES THE WORLD.

Also, Wolverine killing Trask I can't see out of character either. Wolverine kills a lot of people. What's killing one more guy who's genuinely a threat?

 

[Nicky]

How do you know it's 'like for a few hours'? Where are you getting that from?

Unless her new abilities include staying awake for weeks on end then I'm going to assume it was hours/one day.

It's not a flaw at all. They had a mission to prevent a pivotal moment. What's so difficult to understand about that?

Repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true.

Time-travel movies are always prone to this sort of ridiculous dissection by people with too much time on their hands. Congratulations for joining that band of nitpickers.

That's because time travel movies are contradictory by nature.

We don't know exactly how much older Xavier knew. He was the older version of the young Xavier in the original timeline who was in a depressive, drug-addled state at the time of the original assassination.

Of course he did!

 

[X-Maniac]

Unless her new abilities include staying awake for weeks on end then I'm going to assume it was hours/one day.

We just don't know for sure.

Repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true.

You'd do well to bear that in mind yourself, lol...

That's because time travel movies are contradictory by nature.

Well, they are always prone to talk about paradoxes, specific moments, etc. This is sci-fi fantasy, ya know? Obviously time travel isn't your thing, or you're ******** about DoFP doing well for some reason (an allegiance to CA:TWS or to Transformers: AoE?)

Of course he did!

Not so sure. The original young Xavier was in a funk and thought Magneto killed the president. Whether older Xavier was ever filled in on the facts is anyone's guess.

 

[Nicky]

They could, but they didn't.

Reasons?

1) They chose to focus in on a key event, as happens in all time-travel movies.

Yep, and it's illogical every time.

It was a one-shot thing. But they chose to pick a key moment that led to Mystique's power being taken for use on the future Sentinels. Nothing wrong with that. Is Xavier's reasoning flawed? Maybe, but he's a human character and that was the choice his character made in those circumstances. Choices based on the knowledge he had, and driven by desperation.

This is essentially the problem with the time they sent Wolverine back - they cut it too close. If there's an event that will set the apocalypse in motion why would you send them back to the worse possible time which coincidently is so near to the event? That doesn't make any sense.

Maybe he didn't know when the Sentinels were first being built, when the deaths occurred in the past - at that point he was in a depression.

You keep talking about young Charles when I'm referring to the older one who would have acquired all knowledge by now.

Are there elements of dramatic choice and narrative convenience? Sure, it's a 2-hour movie that needs to tell an exciting and interesting story!

This is what I've been trying to say for like the past 4 pages.

For the film and its story, it makes sense. I've never heard anyone else question this to such a degree.

Because only here would I have to defend my opinions over and over again.

 

[X-Maniac]

Yep, and it's illogical every time.

Okay, so you don't like any time travel movie. So why did you watch DoFP and why are you here to point out something that happens in all time-travel movies?

Did you enjoy the movie, despite all this?

This is essentially the problem with the time they sent Wolverine back - they cut it too close. If there's an event that will set the apocalypse in motion why would you send them back to the worse possible time which coincidently is so near to the event? That doesn't make any sense.

Well, it does if they have limited time, knowing that as soon as Kitty is holding Wolverine in the past, she then can't do anything to stop the Sentinels (as she did with Bishop in the opening sequence). They had a narrow window.

You keep talking about young Charles when I'm referring to the older one who would have acquired all knowledge by now.

We can't be sure he acquired all knowledge. Like I said, his past version was in a 'slough of despond' and unaware of what was going on specifically in the outside world, aside from Erik going to prison for the JFK assassination (which he didn't do). How much he was filled in on all the facts is unknown.

This is what I've been trying to say for like the past 4 pages.

Okay, so you believe it's just a plot contrivance and won't be convinced otherwise. Right. Well, you've made your view clear.

Because only here would I have to defend my opinions over and over again.

Well, this is an X-Men forum. And a forum is a place for discussion. You couldn't have been naive enough to expect to say something negative and expect no comeback at all from people who don't feel the same way?

 

[Nicky]

We just don't know for sure.

Um, we do know. The events in the 70s talk place over the course of a few days or week. Are you honestly saying that the events within the 70s took place within one day? BWHAAAHAAHAA We even saw different day and nights within the 70s! You're grasping at straws and what's worse, is that in trying to defend one plot hole you actually opened my eyes to another t:

Well, they are always prone to talk about paradoxes, specific moments, etc. This is sci-fi fantasy, ya know?

Joel Schumacher during 'Batman and Robin' filming: "Remember everybody, it's a cartoon!"

Obviously time travel isn't your thing, or you're ******** about DoFP doing well for some reason (an allegiance to CA:TWS or to Transformers: AoE?)

So this is what it comes to lol. "allegiance"? t: Listen to yourself!
I haven't seen any of the Transformers movies and I didn't like Captain America: WS. This is a prime example of somebody trying to ascribe reasons to somebody's opinions when they don't like the answer. DOFP is one of my fave movies of the year. But it has flaws.

Not so sure. The original young Xavier was in a funk and thought Magneto killed the president. Whether older Xavier was ever filled in on the facts is anyone's guess.

This is pure fan-retcon.

 

[Nicky]

Okay, so you don't like any time travel movie. So why did you watch DoFP and why are you here to point out something that happens in all time-travel movies?

I actually like time travel movies. I accept that they are plot hole prone by nature.

Did you enjoy the movie, despite all this?

You can read my full review here:

http://cartoonsarebetterthanreallif...ime-x-men-days-of-future-past-spoiler-review/

Well, it does if they have limited time, knowing that as soon as Kitty is holding Wolverine in the past, she then can't do anything to stop the Sentinels (as she did with Bishop in the opening sequence). They had a narrow window.

This leads to the plot hole you accidently made me aware of. Please see above.

We can't be sure he acquired all knowledge. Like I said, his past version was in a 'slough of despond' and unaware of what was going on specifically in the outside world, aside from Erik going to prison for the JFK assassination (which he didn't do). How much he was filled in on all the facts is unknown.

Fan retcon again.

Okay, so you believe it's just a plot contrivance and won't be convinced otherwise. Right. Well, you've made your view clear.

Glad we got that clear.

Well, this is an X-Men forum. And a forum is a place for discussion. You couldn't have been naive enough to expect to say something negative and expect no comeback at all from people who don't feel the same way?

Well I wasn't expecting this:

Troll
Lame
Ridiculous
Ego
Can't read
Only learned what ascribed meant today
Discrimination complex

Plus the thread is called "what you didn't like about X-Men: DOFP"
If you think the movie is perfect why are you even in this thread? You're setting yourself up to be angry.

 

[X-Maniac]

Um, we do know. The events in the 70s talk place over the course of a few days or week. Are you honestly saying that the events within the 70s took place within one day? BWHAAAHAAHAA We even saw different day and nights within the 70s! You're grasping at straws and what's worse, is that in trying to defend one plot hole you actually opened my eyes to another t:

I said we didn't know over how much time the time-travel events took place, which is true.

Also, why are you so overjoyed about what you call plotholes? It does sound like trolling...

So this is what it comes to lol. "allegiance"? t: Listen to yourself!
I haven't seen any of the Transformers movies and I didn't like Captain America: WS. This is a prime example of somebody trying to ascribe reasons to somebody's opinions when they don't like the answer. DOFP is one of my fave movies of the year. But it has flaws.

I was trying to understand your reasoning. You're investing a lot of time and energy into it. It sounds like something is behind it. In my experience, when people who behave the way you are, there is always something else going on. I've moderated enough forums and FB groups to know this.

But I accept that you can't accept this element of the story. That's fine. But others of us have our own reasonings for why we DO accept it.

This is pure fan-retcon

No it isn't. We have no idea how much the future Xavier of the original timeline came to know about the exact events of the past.

 

[X-Maniac]

If you think the movie is perfect why are you even in this thread? You're setting yourself up to be angry.

I'm not angry. I saw it for a 5th time last night, and will probably aim for a 6th over the weekend.

Your views have no impact on my enjoyment of it. We were just offering counter-arguments and discussing the points you raised.

It seems so weird you are kicking up such a fuss for someone whose review calls it a near-masterpiece. But anyway...

 

[Nicky]

I said we didn't know over how much time the time-travel events took place, which is true. Also, why are you so overjoyed about what you call plotholes? It does sound like trolling...

I'm not overjoyed about finding plot holes. I'm laughing at your complete inability to defend this plot contrivance causing you to bring to light even more plot contrivances in the process. t:

I was trying to understand your reasoning.

No, you were trying to apply a certain type of reasoning to make it easy for you to argue against it whilst ignoring everything I have said. It's the laziest form of debate.

You're investing a lot of time and energy into it.

And what are you doing now?

It sounds like something is behind it. In my experience, when people who behave the way you are, there is always something else going on. I've moderated enough forums and FB groups to know this.

You haven't apologised for accusing me of being a Transformers fan when I haven't even seen the films. You also haven't apologised for accusing me of liking WS when I nearly fell asleep in the cinema watching it. I'm still waiting for it.

But I accept that you can't accept this element of the story. That's fine. But others of us have our own reasonings for why we DO accept it.

No, you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't resort to childish accusations of being a Transformers fan. After all, this entire debate started because I responded to the thread with my personal grips with the movie. Some didn't like them and are now trying to force me to say the movie was perfect.

No it isn't. We have no idea how much the future Xavier of the original timeline came to know about the exact events of the past.

Fan retcon.

 

[hoy-small-fry]

Hey you know what's fun? Realising it's a movie and enjoying the in-universe explanations for stuff. That and it being, you know, a fantasy movie

 

[X-Maniac]

I'm not overjoyed about finding plot holes. I'm laughing at your complete inability to defend this plot contrivance causing you to bring to light even more plot contrivances in the process. t:

We are not told exactly how long Wolverine's time travel mission lasted in the past, nor are we told if that equates to exactly the same amount of time passing in the future. Does time flow the same way while someone in a time-travel trance? Or is it more like a dream? We are not told this.

No, you were trying to apply a certain type of reasoning to make it easy for you to argue against it whilst ignoring everything I have said. It's the laziest form of debate.

I'm trying to understand why are focusing on this so much.

And what are you doing now?

Still trying to understand it. You are trying to shut people down and be arrogant about it. It won't end well.

You haven't apologised for accusing me of being a Transformers fan when I haven't even seen the films. You also haven't apologised for accusing me of liking WS when I nearly fell asleep in the cinema watching it. I'm still waiting for it.

And I never will apologise for that either. It was a question not an accusation.

No, you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't resort to childish accusations of being a Transformers fan. After all, this entire debate started because I responded to the thread with my personal grips with the movie. Some didn't like them and are now trying to force me to say the movie was perfect.

I'm not trying to 'force' you to say anything. We know you don't think it's perfect. We know, we know! Bad attitude isn't helping your case.

Fan retcon.

Why is it a fan retcon if the movie doesn't tell us what future Xavier has come to know about the past?

 

[Nicky]

We are not told exactly how long Wolverine's time travel mission lasted in the past, nor are we told if that equates to exactly the same amount of time passing in the future. Does time flow the same way while someone in a time-travel trance? Or is it more like a dream? We are not told this.

Rubbish. This is the worst excuse I've heard yet. Seriously. It's called "time travel" not "time dimension". You're now just making things up as you go along.

Still trying to understand it. You are trying to shut people down and be arrogant about it. It won't end well.

No, it's the other way around, rather. I don't care about whether or not people think the various plot contrivances are plausible. I only care about defending my opinions.

And I never will apologise for that either. It was a question not an accusation.

It was both. btw they say an inability to admit when one is wrong is a sign of character weakness...

I'm not trying to 'force' you to say anything. We know you don't think it's perfect. We know, we know! Bad attitude isn't helping your case.

It's not about whether you know I don't think it's perfect, it's about whether you accept it. You clearly cannot. And why do you keep saying 'we'? Stop hiding behind other people and take responsibility for how you feel.

Why is it a fan retcon if the movie doesn't tell us what future Xavier has come to know about the past?

This is a fan retcon. Much like your laughable "time moves differently in 70s" argument t:

 

[danoyse]

Because only here would I have to defend my opinions over and over again.

Really? You've been at this nonsense all night?

We're thrilled that you have your opinion and you're sticking to it. Good for you.

But since it's clear that no one is agreeing with you on this, and rather than understanding that and moving on, you're just trolling now.

I suggest you move on to another discussion, or we can remove you from this discussion altogether.

 

[Nicky]

Really? You've been at this nonsense all night?

Day, actually. Time zones are different in different countries. And no, X-Maniac - there aren't different time dimensions in the UK just in case you're wondering.

I suggest you move on to another discussion, or we can remove you from this discussion altogether.

And with that you've officially lost this argument. I knew this was coming from the moment you called me names and insulted me.
You're threatening to ban me/forcing me out so that I cannot engage in the debate and dismantle further arguments? You've had to remove me from this conversation in order to win this debate? How sad. t:
I don't even care now if you "remove me" because I don't want to engage in a discussion with a corrupt and unprofessional moderator who abuses their power by banning anybody who disagrees with them. Disgraceful.

If that's how you're running this forum I want no part of it. I'd rather join a place where freedom of speech is allowed even when it goes against the majority opinion.

 

[Travesty]

Oh jesus.....

 

[danoyse]

Oh brother...

 

[X-Maniac]

Rubbish. This is the worst excuse I've heard yet. Seriously. It's called "time travel" not "time dimension". You're now just making things up as you go along.

In many fantasy tales, time passes differently while the person is away in some other world/realm/universe/reality. Many fairy tales, The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe, etc. Although this was the same world but in the past, there's still no factual statement as to how time passes.

Just as there is no factual statement about many other fantastical elements of the story.

It wasn't spelled out, but given that Kitty would otherwise be holding on for days, which seems unlikely, one assumption is that only a day at most passed in the future.

Filmmakers can make up any rules they like about the mechanics of time travel since it hasn't yet been achieved, as far as we know.

No, it's the other way around, rather. I don't care about whether or not people think the various plot contrivances are plausible. I only care about defending my opinions.

I have already accepted your opinions.

It was both. btw they say an inability to admit when one is wrong is a sign of character weakness...

I'm not wrong. I asked whether you had some underlying agenda.

It's not about whether you know I don't think it's perfect, it's about whether you accept it. You clearly cannot. And why do you keep saying 'we'? Stop hiding behind other people and take responsibility for how you feel.

A few posts above this I said: "But I accept that you can't accept this element of the story. That's fine. But others of us have our own reasonings for why we DO accept it."

So I do accept it. But still you keep ignoring it, driven by your own blind attitude...

This is a fan retcon. Much like your laughable "time moves differently in 70s" argument t:

It's not a retcon, it's a point for discussion. Especially since it wasn't stated in the movie how much he knew about the past during the time he was in a depressed state.

So, to conclude, I do accept that you have issues with this part of the story. But I do not share those issues. And I don't find myself liking your attitude very much at all.

 

[RLAAMJR.]

Let me tell you what they REALLY should have done, for guaranteed, easy success.

They should have sent Wolverine back to the time around First Class, when Magneto, Xavier, and Mystique were all still friends. Wolverine should have told Xavier about Trask's Sentinels, and then let Xavier mind control Trask into destroying all his work about the Sentinels and make him not want to build them.

Afterwards, maybe Wolverine could have killed Trask in secret, after all his work has been destroyed, to guarantee he never, ever starts work on them again.


Of course, there would be no movie there.

The better idea would be killing Trask after being born.

 

[Nicky]

Hi danoyse,

I'm about to engage in a discussion with another forum member about the movie X Men: Days of Future Past currently playing in theatres. Feel free to ban me for doing so.

In many fantasy tales, time passes differently while the person is away in some other world/realm/universe/reality. Many fairy tales, The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe, etc. Although this was the same world but in the past, there's still no factual statement as to how time passes.

Yes, but this has not been established in Days of Future Past.

It wasn't spelled out, but given that Kitty would otherwise be holding on for days, which seems unlikely, one assumption is that only a day at most passed in the future.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree. Seeing as nothing of this nature was established within the film I am theorising that it's a plot hole the writers didn't cover up.

Filmmakers can make up any rules they like about the mechanics of time travel since it hasn't yet been achieved, as far as we know.

Oh, I'm not saying they can't. I'm saying that these rules they make up need to be established within the film.

I have already accepted your opinions.

The fact that you're still arguing with them means you haven't. Acceptance is saying "you know what? Let's agree to disagree." Not relentlessly arguing and arguing and repeating and repeating.

I'm not wrong. I asked whether you had some underlying agenda.

And you were wrong for doing so. Just because I notice flaws within a movie doesn't mean I have to have an "agenda" to do so.

A few posts above this I said: "But I accept that you can't accept this element of the story. That's fine. But others of us have our own reasonings for why we DO accept it." So I do accept it. But still you keep ignoring it, driven by your own blind attitude...

I'll say it again: this entire debate started because of statements I made about the movie which people then tried to talk me out of. I really don't care that you can't see the flaws within the film, in fact I'm happy for you because it means you're able to fully enjoy it. I'm just stating the flaws I see within the film in a thread titled: What you didn't like about X-Men: DOFP". I'm the one who is on topic here.

It's not a retcon, it's a point for discussion. Especially since it wasn't stated in the movie how much he knew about the past during the time he was in a depressed state.

Again, you're comparing a drug addicted, depressed young man to an old, wise man who has acquired full knowledge about all the events that went down.

So, to conclude, I do accept that you have issues with this part of the story. But I do not share those issues. And I don't find myself liking your attitude very much at all.

Same here.

 

[Travesty]

You should be grateful that danoyse hasn't already banned you, as it is. If you were confronting someone like C Lee to "just ban you", he wouldn't think twice.

We'll see how this plays out....