The Amazing Spider-Man When and how should Gwen Stacy die? - Part 1

[Shikamaru]

You mean the man-child who gives his marriage to the devil so his old aunt who didn't want him to save her and was going to die eventually anyway? Yeah, I don't love that Spidey.

Except that wasn't Spider-Man. That was just Joey Q being Joey Q like always. All it is is just one more piece of evidence added to the pile of thousands that show why Joey Q is the main source of most of Marvel's current problems and should have been fired ages ago.

Every superhero has been in the hands of a writer that doesn't understand their character at least once. I can use your logic against any superhero. It proves nothing.

 

[Shikamaru]

I was browsing YouTube today and found a very interesting video that addresses Gwen's death and why they should kill her in the movies in full detail. It even addresses most of the complains Mr Peasant and Deagenspear have including the whole sexism card (that killing Gwen is somehow sexist). I would love to link it here. The problem is that I'm currently on vacation and using a really crappy hotel computer that doesn't have copy and paste enabled. So if you want to see it, you'll just have to search it up yourself.

www.youtube.com/user/pathofjiofreed

Go to his videos look for the vid called "Spider-Rant (Part 2)". It should be the most recent video he posted or at least one of the most recent videos posted.

 

[Dragon]

Because Ben 's death was the origin of spider-man. Gwen's is not only the origin of the green goblin becoming a true arch enemy but also the origin of peters adulthood.

You wouldn't have the spider-man we know and love today for the last 40 years without either of those tragedies.

That's over-selling if ever I've seen it.

Gwen's death wasn't the origin(?) of the Goblin becoming Spidey's true arch enemy. That happened through all the battles where Spidey could never defeat the Goblin and was climaxed when the Goblin became the first villain to discover Peter's identity.

And Gwen's death was the origin of Peter's adulthood? So all of those years of his risking his life unselfishly was adolescence? Peter became an adult when he realized with great power comes great responsibility. You can even say this was capped off in the iconic scene when he lifted the impossibly heavy machinery off of himself in ASM #33 to save Aunt May. His choices made in battling the Green Goblin were the culmination of those years of experience.

After Gwen's death, there was nothing. He learned nothing from her death. He wasn't changed in anyway, other than moving on to a relationship with Mary Jane. And if anything, post-Gwen he became more childish.

He proposes to MJ, even though they clearly weren't ready for marriage.
He involved himself with Black Cat, a criminal.
He unites with the alien symbiote without knowing what it was.
He lets Venom roam free on several occasions, and even re-unites Brock with the symbiote simply because he can't handle seeing someone die.
He reveals his identity to the world, knowing the danger of it.
He surrenders his marriage to Mephisto because again, he can't handle seeing someone die, even though acceptance of death is the ultimate example of maturity.

Gwen's death is nothing more than a dramatic moment in Spidey's history. Not an essential one.

 

[Web face]

@ mr. peasant
Sorry, I'm not on a computer at the moment so I can't give you a full response, but one thing that I found important is when you said that it would be bad characterization. I think the only thing stopping that is if the director makes Gwen likable and basically not your average love interest that no one cares about. I want her to be someone that many people care about before her death so that once she goes, it is emotional and a moment that you will never forget. Also, I just want to respond to when you said that just because it happened in the comics doesn't mean it should happen here. I agree with that, I mean i dont only want it just because it happened in the comics, but because it is one of the most beloved and famous stories in the comics.
Oh, and I do think I had a post or two where I said I didn't want to see a leaked version of Ben's death from a spy cam because I wanted his death to be as emotional as possible in theaters.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

How is that cliched? What movie has that happened in besides the Dark Knight? It happens a lot in comics but this is not a cliche by any means.

Read this part, and think it over

Wait so one of the most creative stories in Spider-Man is uncreative and cliched? So what exactly is the creative alternative? Peter and Gwen have their ups and downs but end up together and live happily ever after?

It was original once upon a time, but the story isn't impressive imo, I like what it made in comics, but it doesn't need to be trranslated

superhero movies might as well stop.. all stories have been done before... O wait... Movies should just stop too... nothing's original or new anymore

Sarcastic, yet true

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

That's over-selling if ever I've seen it.

Gwen's death wasn't the origin(?) of the Goblin becoming Spidey's true arch enemy. That happened through all the battles where Spidey could never defeat the Goblin and was climaxed when the Goblin became the first villain to discover Peter's identity.

And Gwen's death was the origin of Peter's adulthood? So all of those years of his risking his life unselfishly was adolescence? Peter became an adult when he realized with great power comes great responsibility. You can even say this was capped off in the iconic scene when he lifted the impossibly heavy machinery off of himself in ASM #33 to save Aunt May. His choices made in battling the Green Goblin were the culmination of those years of experience.

After Gwen's death, there was nothing. He learned nothing from her death. He wasn't changed in anyway, other than moving on to a relationship with Mary Jane. And if anything, post-Gwen he became more childish.

He proposes to MJ, even though they clearly weren't ready for marriage.
He involved himself with Black Cat, a criminal.
He unites with the alien symbiote without knowing what it was.
He lets Venom roam free on several occasions, and even re-unites Brock with the symbiote simply because he can't handle seeing someone die.
He reveals his identity to the world, knowing the danger of it.
He surrenders his marriage to Mephisto because again, he can't handle seeing someone die, even though acceptance of death is the ultimate example of maturity.

Gwen's death is nothing more than a dramatic moment in Spidey's history. Not an essential one.

Lets pretend for a second I agree with you that Peter Parker is a total wank and the death of his first love didnt affect him...

Don't you think by changing it to be an essential moment, having Peter learn, grow and change from it would be unique in all the ways youre complaining about? The film could be inspired by her death in the comics, but expand upon how it makes him a better person and shows him the fragility of life. Would that not be a heart-pounding moment worthy of heroic praise?

 

[Dragon]

Lets pretend for a second I agree with you that Peter Parker is a total wank and the death of his first love didnt affect him...

I'm not saying it didn't affect him. He was of course sad and mournful. But it did nothing to change him as has been suggested.

Don't you think by changing it to be an essential moment, having Peter learn, grow and change from it would be unique in all the ways youre complaining about? The film could be inspired by her death in the comics, but expand upon how it makes him a better person and shows him the fragility of life. Would that not be a heart-pounding moment worthy of heroic praise?

Okay. How does Peter grow from Gwen's death? What does he learn from it?
Nothing.

Does he quit being Spider-Man because of the danger to his loved ones?
Does he adopt a take no prisoners attitude with villains ala the Punisher?
Does he decide never to involve himself romantically again?

He'd already spent everyday risking his life because he knew the frailty of human existence. He'd already done dozens of acts worthy of heroic praise.

There's nothing to be gained from Gwen's death other than moving on to MJ, which was the only purpose for it in the first place aside from its pure shock value.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I'm not saying it didn't affect him. He was of course sad and mournful. But it did nothing to change him as has been suggested.



Okay. How does Peter grow from Gwen's death? What does he learn from it?
Nothing.

Does he quit being Spider-Man because of the danger to his loved ones?
Does he adopt a take no prisoners attitude with villains ala the Punisher?
Does he decide never to involve himself romantically again?

He'd already spent everyday risking his life because he knew the frailty of human existence. He'd already done dozens of acts worthy of heroic praise.

There's nothing to be gained from Gwen's death other than moving on to MJ, which was the only purpose for it in the first place aside from its pure shock value.

The sequel to Amazing Spider-Man hasn't been made yet. You have an issue with how the death was portrayed in the comics, more specifically how Peter's character was depicted afterwards. But now we aren't talking about the comics anymore, lets talk about the sequel to the film. As I said the moment could be inspired and adapted perfectly in such a way that Peter does grow from it. Do you not agree that this could be done properly?

I mean jesus, many of you are so adamant that killing Gwen off is the wrong way to go and that its cliche, overdone, or just plainly in bad taste. But you are basing all that off of something that happened in comics almost 40 years ago.

I can secede that yes, a decent, entertaining Spider-Man movie can be made without the death of Gwen Stacy (heck 4 of them have already). But if you don't believe that her death COULD, possibly be done in film in such a way that the hero grows from it. And in a way that is not only emotionally resonant but also original and maybe even beautiful, well... then you are lacking in imagination and not being very diplomatic about this discussion. Close-minded is another appropriate term.

EDIT: Much of this is geared toward other posters, not just you Dragon.

 

[Oscorp]

I find it funny when mr. peasant and his companion complain about others offending them when they are the ones offending others in the first place.

 

[Venom'sDad]

Many are making a big issue out of nothing....look at how tastefully they were able to do Captain Stacy's death. It was nothing tasteless, obscene, or vulgar. The same can be said with Uncle Ben, whom people have said, must die(much like Gwen). Many of you need to get over yourself....Gwen death is just as iconic as Uncle Ben's and his famous statement, "With great power, comes great responsibility." It will happen, and it should happen.

 

[Oscorp]

Many are making a big issue out of nothing....look at how tastefully they were able to do Captain Stacy's death. It was nothing tasteless, obscene, or vulgar. The same can be said with Uncle Ben, whom people have said, must die(much like Gwen). Many of you need to get over yourself....Gwen death is just as iconic as Uncle Ben's and his famous statement, "With great power, comes great responsibility." It will happen, and it should happen.

I agree. Sure, Captain Stacy's and Uncle Ben's deaths may not have been absolutely, 10/10 perfect, but you make a very good point. OK, I would definitely say that Uncle Ben's death is much, much more a must than Gwen's, but when people seem offended at the idea of killing Gwen, I just shake my head. Sure, Gwen could be kept alive throughout the trilogy as long as the whole trilogy takes place before her, non-film death (having an adult Peter with Gwen would be wrong IMO). But to be so much against her death, even calling it sexist, when it's a big thing in the comics is a bit ridiculous IMO. It's no more wrong than killing her dad. As long as they make it dramatic, almost exactly like the comics, and show Peter being affected deeply by it afterwards, then there is no reason not to have it done after how ASM builds up to it.

 

[Dagenspear]

You mean like the practical world where a billionaire runs around dressed as a bat fighting a clown, crazed burn victim and a man with a burlap sack on his face....

All of which held a practical reasoning and purpose consistent with Nolan's established world. She's. A. Catburglar. It wouldn't make any sense for her to have anything other than the requirements to be a catburglar. Seriously, if these are the reasons why you hated TDKR, then it's really not the films fault. And your girlfriend should slap you upside the head.

 

[Dagenspear]

I find it funny when mr. peasant and his companion complain about others offending them when they are the ones offending others in the first place.

We're just defending ourselves. You people shouldn't attack if you can't handle a counter.

 

[OP84CC82]

You know what, Gwen should die. It's such a powerful moment in comics that should be done justice on the big screen. Sure it reduces Gwen to a mere damsel in distress and completely wastes the opportunity to do Spider-Man stories with more cinematic potential, but who cares, as long as it's close to the comics, and Emma Stone gets a free pass to hop off the bandwagon early which is one of the only reasons why I would think she'd make those statements, it's fine and dandy.

 

[Web face]

Believe me, the way Gwen was written in TASM at least, no one will believe she is merely a useless damsel in distress. She is very smart and courageous person, but she is still just a human. Also, as I have said before, I don't want it to happen just because it happened in the comics. There have been bad story lines in the comics that I would never want to see on the big screen, but Gwen's death is one that many people love, and it is one of the most famous stories in Spider-man history. If you don't like the story that's fine. I personally feel that it would be a waste of cinematic potential if she doesn't get killed in this trilogy, but different strokes for different folks.

 

[OP84CC82]

it is one of the most famous stories in spider-man history.

for it's shock value!!!

 

[Dagenspear]

Sure, Gwen could be kept alive throughout the trilogy as long as the whole trilogy takes place before her, non-film death (having an adult Peter with Gwen would be wrong IMO). But to be so much against her death, even calling it sexist, when it's a big thing in the comics is a bit ridiculous IMO. It's no more wrong than killing her dad. As long as they make it dramatic, almost exactly like the comics, and show Peter being affected deeply by it afterwards, then there is no reason not to have it done after how ASM builds up to it.

I'd hardly call ONE line a "build up." Her mere presence doesn't constitute it. And considering the whole reason for killing her in the comics in the first place was to hook Peter up with MJ, yeah, I'd say it was sexist. And no one said that Peter/Gwen should be together as adults, in fact I said they could break up, as that would be far more realistic AND relatable. Why would it be wrong though? First loves can last. It happens in real life sometimes.

 

[mr. peasant]

Many are making a big issue out of nothing....look at how tastefully they were able to do Captain Stacy's death. It was nothing tasteless, obscene, or vulgar. The same can be said with Uncle Ben, whom people have said, must die(much like Gwen). Many of you need to get over yourself....Gwen death is just as iconic as Uncle Ben's and his famous statement, "With great power, comes great responsibility." It will happen, and it should happen.

Fair enough. My main issues were with regards to to those excitedly clamouring and fantasising about how the death should be as brutal and gratuitous as possible (as cited in one of my earlier posts) and the view that Gwen's death is the only acceptable way to progress the story. Yes, it is one way the story can be done (and done well) but there are other options available too.


Speaking of Captain Stacy's death, do you think it was done solely to instigate a reaction from the audience and/or to give Peter a source of angst? Not quite. Captain Stacy's death serves as the counterpoint to Uncle Ben's death. Where Uncle Ben's death represents the importance of doing the right thing lest there be consequences, Captain Stacy's represents the idea that doing the right thing carries consequences of their own - both, to yourself and to the people around around you. Specifically, because Captain Stacy had a duty to protect the city and because he chose to help Peter, he dies. In addition, because Peter chose to confront the Lizard to save New York, Captain Stacy dies.

Consequently, having Gwen then die in a way similar to the comics (i.e. simply as a means for the Green Goblin to get at Spider-Man), it reinforces the idea that doing the right thing results in harm being brought upon the people around you (i.e. the message/lesson taken from Captain Stacy's death). Therefore, the message set forth is that (at least as far as protecting your loved ones is concerned) it is better not to take action than to do so; and that Uncle Ben's philosophy is wrong.

 

[Web face]

for it's shock value!!!

And how sad and emotional it was to see our hero in such a dark state.

 

[TheForgotten]

If they do the scene: Cool.

If they don't do the scene: Cool.

 

[Dagenspear]

Except that wasn't Spider-Man. That was just Joey Q being Joey Q like always. All it is is just one more piece of evidence added to the pile of thousands that show why Joey Q is the main source of most of Marvel's current problems and should have been fired ages ago.

It actually very much Spider-Man, in character, AND realistic based on the psychology of his character. Although it's not the idealized fantasy you have of him in your mind, and the situation in which he makes his choice is, in fact, contrived all to hell, the choice itself is realistically consistent with his characters psychology as established.

 

[Dagenspear]

If they do the scene: Cool.

If they don't do the scene: Cool.

Now this guy knows his ****. Welcome to the insanity, man. We need some level-headedness here.

 

[OP84CC82]

It actually very much Spider-Man, in character, AND realistic based on the psychology of his character. Although it's not the idealized fantasy you have of him in your mind, and the situation in which he makes his choice is, in fact, contrived all to hell, the choice itself is realistically consistent with his characters psychology as established.

It's not how I imagine Spider-Man though. Just the way he's been portrayed in some of the comics.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Many are making a big issue out of nothing....look at how tastefully they were able to do Captain Stacy's death. It was nothing tasteless, obscene, or vulgar. The same can be said with Uncle Ben, whom people have said, must die(much like Gwen). Many of you need to get over yourself....Gwen death is just as iconic as Uncle Ben's and his famous statement, "With great power, comes great responsibility." It will happen, and it should happen.

I actually kinda find it sexist that people find gwens death sexist.... But not uncle Ben, George stacy , Norman osborn , harry osborn , Nathan (mays beau), Ned Leeds, etc.... More men die in comics than women.... How's it sexist to kill off a girlfriend and not uncle?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

All of which held a practical reasoning and purpose consistent with Nolan's established world. She's. A. Catburglar. It wouldn't make any sense for her to have anything other than the requirements to be a catburglar. Seriously, if these are the reasons why you hated TDKR, then it's really not the films fault. And your girlfriend should slap you upside the head.

Sooooooo the cat ear goggles really served a purpose?.....

And umm... Im gay