The Amazing Spider-Man When and how should Gwen Stacy die? - Part 1

[spideyboy_1111]

We're just defending ourselves. You people shouldn't attack if you can't handle a counter.

You have nothing to defend. Your a minute minority. And guess what? Sony is going to do what they want regardless of our opinions

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I'd hardly call ONE line a "build up." Her mere presence doesn't constitute it. And considering the whole reason for killing her in the comics in the first place was to hook Peter up with MJ, yeah, I'd say it was sexist. And no one said that Peter/Gwen should be together as adults, in fact I said they could break up, as that would be far more realistic AND relatable. Why would it be wrong though? First loves can last. It happens in real life sometimes.

That shows how little you know the comics... It was not to hook him up with mj. He actually wasn't with mj till much later. They had a brief fling i believe (many issues after her death) but the first girl he got serious with after gwen was actually felicia. Mj and peter didn't get serious till the 80s

Gwens death was written because the current writers didn't know where or how else to write gwen. peter and her were clearly headed for marriage, but they felt peter was far too young to be married. And they were getting boring. They even sent gwen to Europe before her death just to not have to write her...

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Fair enough. My main issues were with regards to to those excitedly clamouring and fantasising about how the death should be as brutal and gratuitous as possible (as cited in one of my earlier posts) and the view that Gwen's death is the only acceptable way to progress the story. Yes, it is one way the story can be done (and done well) but there are other options available too.


Speaking of Captain Stacy's death, do you think it was done solely to instigate a reaction from the audience and/or to give Peter a source of angst? Not quite. Captain Stacy's death serves as the counterpoint to Uncle Ben's death. Where Uncle Ben's death represents the importance of doing the right thing lest there be consequences, Captain Stacy's represents the idea that doing the right thing carries consequences of their own - both, to yourself and to the people around around you. Specifically, because Captain Stacy had a duty to protect the city and because he chose to help Peter, he dies. In addition, because Peter chose to confront the Lizard to save New York, Captain Stacy dies.

Consequently, having Gwen then die in a way similar to the comics (i.e. simply as a means for the Green Goblin to get at Spider-Man), it reinforces the idea that doing the right thing results in harm being brought upon the people around you (i.e. the message/lesson taken from Captain Stacy's death). Therefore, the message set forth is that (at least as far as protecting your loved ones is concerned) it is better not to take action than to do so; and that Uncle Ben's philosophy is wrong.

Peasant.... Hate to break it to you but a good majority of those people who said "brutal" are joking. playing fun with the title of this thread. Lighten up people arnt really wanting a scene from Watchmen or 50 shades of grey playing out on here.....

 

[spideyboy_1111]

It actually very much Spider-Man, in character, AND realistic based on the psychology of his character. Although it's not the idealized fantasy you have of him in your mind, and the situation in which he makes his choice is, in fact, contrived all to hell, the choice itself is realistically consistent with his characters psychology as established.

Again... You have no idea what you're talking about because in that story arc it was actually MJ who persuaded peter to save mays life. They both kinda figured love would eventually find a way

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Sooooooo the cat ear goggles really served a purpose?.....

And umm... Im gay

LOL! awesome. well said.

 

[Dagenspear]

Sooooooo the cat ear goggles really served a purpose?.....

And umm... Im gay

Boyfriend then. And they weren't cat ear goggles. They were goggles, that when lifted up, happen to look like cat ears. I don't need to know their function, only that they have one, and that they're not just THERE for the nonsensincal reason of: Well, just because, SHE'S CATWOMAN! I automatically understand that it's some kind of thief tech, as she uses it while cracking Daggets safe, and that's all I need to know, that it serves some practical purpose for her as a catburglar. Like I said though, not really the films fault if you can't handle different interpretations.

 

[Dagenspear]

You have nothing to defend. Your a minute minority. And guess what? Sony is going to do what they want regardless of our opinions

Last I checked, I wasn't arguing with Sony, nor do I ever recall calling into question whether they were actually gonna kill Gwen or not, as I'm pretty sure they will. But that's not the point. It shouldn't happen, so I'll continue to argue against it. Me being in the minority doesn't matter to me, and I don't see why it should.

 

[Dragon]

That shows how little you know the comics... It was not to hook him up with mj. He actually wasn't with mj till much later. They had a brief fling i believe (many issues after her death) but the first girl he got serious with after gwen was actually felicia. Mj and peter didn't get serious till the 80s

Gwens death was written because the current writers didn't know where or how else to write gwen. peter and her were clearly headed for marriage, but they felt peter was far too young to be married. And they were getting boring. They even sent gwen to Europe before her death just to not have to write her...

Not correct. First, Stan Lee, who did intend for Peter and Gwen to be married, sent her to Europe. It was in the wake of her father's death and when she blamed Spidey for it. And he still dealt with her character. Peter went to London to propose but when he had to go into action as Spidey it screwed his plan since he didn't want Gwen to put two and two together with Spidey and Peter being in London at the same time. But Gwen begins to get over her anger with Spidey and returns to Peter. So the sending her away was part of the overall plan to bring them together.

Then Stan left and Gerry Conway started writing the book. He indeed said that a big part of his motivation in killing Gwen was that he didn't like the character and wanted to bring Peter and MJ together. And he did. Peter and MJ were constantly together even during Peter's mourning period for Gwen, thus the famous scene of MJ remaining with Peter after he rips into her just after Gwen died. This is what led to their first kiss in ASM #143. Peter was torn between MJ and Gwen during the first Clone Saga. Peter and MJ started a relationship serious enough for Peter to propose. But MJ rightfully turned him down. The Black Cat thing happened 3-4 years after they broke up.

 

[Dagenspear]

That shows how little you know the comics... It was not to hook him up with mj. He actually wasn't with mj till much later. They had a brief fling i believe (many issues after her death) but the first girl he got serious with after gwen was actually felicia. Mj and peter didn't get serious till the 80s

Gwens death was written because the current writers didn't know where or how else to write gwen. peter and her were clearly headed for marriage, but they felt peter was far too young to be married. And they were getting boring. They even sent gwen to Europe before her death just to not have to write her...

It's pretty known that MJ was the prefered choice for the writer over Gwen. Just like you said, she was seen as boring.

 

[Dagenspear]

Again... You have no idea what you're talking about because in that story arc it was actually MJ who persuaded peter to save mays life. They both kinda figured love would eventually find a way

I'm sorry, I didn't realize Peter lacked a mind of his own and the ability to make his own choices. Peter made the call. And it was the wrong one.

 

[Dragon]

It's pretty known that MJ was the prefered choice for the writer over Gwen. Just like you said, she was seen as boring.

It wasn't just a problem with Gwen. For writers, all superhero girlfriends become boring. MJ was easy to write when she was just comic relief. But when she, like Gwen had to have the full dramatic weight of being the book's female lead there wasn't anything interesting they could do with her. There's but so many times that she can crack-wise and strut around in lingerie before it gets tiresome. That's why they worked so hard to jettison MJ as well. The problem is that comic book writers rarely know how to write using character development. They rely on contrived events.

If they did rely on character, then they'd have seen all the wasted potential there was with Gwen and could have thought of loads of things to do with her aside from either marriage or death. For my money Gwen was always the better choice for a girlfriend/wife for Peter because she brought more to the table than MJ. MJ is superficial. Her life as model/actress doesn't balance out Peter's life as Spider-Man. Gwen however, as a science student and as potentially following in her father's footsteps as a cop, would have brought some real drama into the stories. Imagine if she became a cop and had to assist in hunting down Spidey.

 

[©KAW]

Nah, she must die and with her all of her hopes and dreams.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

It wasn't just a problem with Gwen. For writers, all superhero girlfriends become boring. MJ was easy to write when she was just comic relief. But when she, like Gwen had to have the full dramatic weight of being the book's female lead there wasn't anything interesting they could do with her. There's but so many times that she can crack-wise and strut around in lingerie before it gets tiresome. That's why they worked so hard to jettison MJ as well. The problem is that comic book writers rarely know how to write using character development. They rely on contrived events.

If they did rely on character, then they'd have seen all the wasted potential there was with Gwen and could have thought of loads of things to do with her aside from either marriage or death. For my money Gwen was always the better choice for a girlfriend/wife for Peter because she brought more to the table than MJ. MJ is superficial. Her life as model/actress doesn't balance out Peter's life as Spider-Man. Gwen however, as a science student and as potentially following in her father's footsteps as a cop, would have brought some real drama into the stories. Imagine if she became a cop and had to assist in hunting down Spidey.

For a story standpoint though, a relationship of opposites is far more interesting. Gwen is like a female peter.... Which is why she got boring. I like to think of peters 3 loves as ends of a spectrum. Gwen on one end, Felicia on the other. Mj was smack dab in the middle. Not as crazy or sexual as Felicia but not as timid and "perfect" as gwen

Truth be told it kinda carries over in real life too. Complete 100% opposites never work, and typically those who are to much the same are boring. You gotta have a mix if both to keep the relationship fun and interesting and to grow as people... But not too different where you have nothing in common

 

[©KAW]

Thank you Dr. Phil.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize Peter lacked a mind of his own and the ability to make his own choices. Peter made the call. And it was the wrong one.

... You know nothing about peter parkers character if you think he would have erased the marriage without mj's input. He wouldn't of done it behind her back. It was a marriage they both needed to agree upon. And he wouldn't if done it without her agreeing

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Thank you Dr. Phil.

That's MR doctor Phil to you

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Boyfriend then. And they weren't cat ear goggles. They were goggles, that when lifted up, happen to look like cat ears. I don't need to know their function, only that they have one, and that they're not just THERE for the nonsensincal reason of: Well, just because, SHE'S CATWOMAN! I automatically understand that it's some kind of thief tech, as she uses it while cracking Daggets safe, and that's all I need to know, that it serves some practical purpose for her as a catburglar. Like I said though, not really the films fault if you can't handle different interpretations.

Still nope... My bf is a huge batmans fan and didst care fir the movie (loved the previous ones even) and i still enjoyed the movie over him. But none the less... how is a whip less practical than a stilletto heel or a man with a Burlap sack on his head... Or a man who uses his cape to transform it into batwings . Everything can be realistic and functional. As you said SHE'S CATWOMAN .... A CATWOMAN without claws........ Because... I guess its not as functional As her cat ears and batmans "the bat" or his batarangs or bat sonar........ Or bat cape .... *rollseyes

Like anyone would complain if she had claws and a whip......

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Last I checked, I wasn't arguing with Sony, nor do I ever recall calling into question whether they were actually gonna kill Gwen or not, as I'm pretty sure they will. But that's not the point. It shouldn't happen, so I'll continue to argue against it. Me being in the minority doesn't matter to me, and I don't see why it should.

again... Last I Checked, this was the WHEN and HOW should gwen stacy die thread... not the "SHOULD SHE DIE" thread.

the constant debates posters have had with you in this thread ultimately derails it from the real topic.

 

[©KAW]

When: Third film.

How: By Green Goblin.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

When: Third film.

How: By Green Goblin.

thank you , id much rather debate on WHEN/HOW and stay on topic

 

[Dragon]

For a story standpoint though, a relationship of opposites is far more interesting. Gwen is like a female peter.... Which is why she got boring. I like to think of peters 3 loves as ends of a spectrum. Gwen on one end, Felicia on the other. Mj was smack dab in the middle. Not as crazy or sexual as Felicia but not as timid and "perfect" as gwen

Truth be told it kinda carries over in real life too. Complete 100% opposites never work, and typically those who are to much the same are boring. You gotta have a mix if both to keep the relationship fun and interesting and to grow as people... But not too different where you have nothing in common

When was Gwen presented as either timid or perfect? When was she a female version of Peter? You're thinking of the lame kiddie cartoon series.

And it had nothing to do with opposites, because, again, the writers got bored with MJ as well. Black Cat was the easiest love interest to write, because being involved directly in the action created much more drama. She's an idiotic character, but can have much more shelf-life in a superhero setting.

Again, the problem is that comic book writers are often not very creative. Which is why they had to go to the ridiculous deal with Satan to end Peter's marriage and why they had to kill Gwen in order to drum up something new in the comics. There were angles they could've played with Peter and Gwen that could've kept the relationship fresh for years. Not so much with MJ. Her life as an model/actress didn't bring enough drama to the table.

 

[mr. peasant]

again... Last I Checked, this was the WHEN and HOW should gwen stacy die thread... not the "SHOULD SHE DIE" thread.

the constant debates posters have had with you in this thread ultimately derails it from the real topic.

Uhm... the original poster's post:

There will be chance to do the Death of Gwen Stacy story arc. Should it be done exactly like the comics, done different from the comic or not at all?

If they do it when should it happen movie 2 or movie 3?

Meaning, debating whether Gwen Stacy should die is not only in the spirit of the topic but explicitly on topic as well.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

When was Gwen presented as either timid or perfect? When was she a female version of Peter? You're thinking of the lame kiddie cartoon series.

And it had nothing to do with opposites, because, again, the writers got bored with MJ as well. Black Cat was the easiest love interest to write, because being involved directly in the action created much more drama. She's an idiotic character, but can have much more shelf-life in a superhero setting.

Again, the problem is that comic book writers are often not very creative. Which is why they had to go to the ridiculous deal with Satan to end Peter's marriage and why they had to kill Gwen in order to drum up something new in the comics. There were angles they could've played with Peter and Gwen that could've kept the relationship fresh for years. Not so much with MJ. Her life as an model/actress didn't bring enough drama to the table.

Peter and Gwen's personality has always matched. and look at her fanbase? they all consider her "perfect" and put her on a pedestal as the most ideal love interest for peter. Lol don't tell me what i'm thinking.. my first introduction of gwen was the comics.

black cat is easiest to write because she's never a serious love interest. She's mostly just there for action and for straight men to fantasize about... (and yes, i'm saying this as she's also still one of my favorite spidey characters (and i currently own every issue she's ever been in). She's easy to right as she always comes and goes. She doesn't need to be present in every issue.

As for MJ, I'm no writer, but I think as a reader it was easy to see that her boring-ness came from the fact they gave her nothing to do... Peter had no supporting cast but May and MJ at the time (harry and gwen were dead, no one cared for liz allen or deborah, and betty, glory, and flash seemed to have been completely absent from the books as well (though ironically.. supporting cast members did appear (like deb and flash) in the much less read "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man" where the book was actually a nice mesh of story, supporting cast, and mj/may domestic relationships. But the Flagship, Amazing (the most read) was never able to seem to do that, nor really tried. The whole MJ/May situation with peter started to go down hill with sins past, and then their apartment burned down, mj lost her job and couldn't get an acting gig, and then civil war happened and the family was forced to go into hiding and do nothing but wallow. (so yeah... of course MJ got boring when she had no one to talk to but a brittle old woman and a husband who's never their. (that one is a no-brainier).

MJ was a public eye character. I don't see how that creates less drama then gwen? who was low-key compared to that. Mj had death threats, media attention, kidnappers, and the contrast between her living a very public life... and peter living a very private in keeping his identity created much more drama. It's when they stripped her of all her media related stories is exactly when she got boring. coincidence? i think not. It's also the reason why MJ and peter's relationship lasted more than twice as long as peter and gwens.....

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Uhm... the original poster's post:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=362803

Meaning, debating whether Gwen Stacy should die is not only in the spirit of the topic but explicitly on topic as well.

then fine. i'll probably just put dagen on ignore where he belongs anyway...

he ignores any posts with any poignancy anyway (because lets face it.. he believes as long as you think she should die, you have nothing valid to say anyway)

 

[Dragon]

Peter and Gwen's personality has always matched. and look at her fanbase? they all consider her "perfect" and put her on a pedestal as the most ideal love interest for peter. Lol don't tell me what i'm thinking.. my first introduction of gwen was the comics.

Nope. Look at the beginning of their relationship. They were constantly at odds. Even though Gwen was studious, she also loved to hang out and party. She wasn't as extreme as MJ was said to be (Even though this was never actually shown- but since she was running with Harry and Harry did drugs one can suppose that she indulged a bit herself) but she certainly was never presented as being timid. Please point to a story that suggests this. Since I have every issue, I'll be happy to verify. Then later, Gwen was getting more involved in activism; student protests, environmentally, politically, and she would come down on Peter for his lack of interest (Even though we know why he couldn't spare the time) She was constantly wondering where he was running to and why. So they weren't perfectly matched. Or no more so than any couple who while being different, still have a love and respect for each other. It was the same with Peter and MJ.

And Gwen was hardly perfect in the flawless sense. She made mistakes, had a hot temper and was quick to belt someone who pissed her off. If anyone who's actually read the comics suggests she's perfect, it's as in she's the best choice for Peter. Which I agree with.

black cat is easiest to write because she's never a serious love interest. She's mostly just there for action and for straight men to fantasize about... (and yes, i'm saying this as she's also still one of my favorite spidey characters (and i currently own every issue she's ever been in). She's easy to right as she always comes and goes. She doesn't need to be present in every issue.

Black Cat was certainly a serious love interest at one point. Peter was considering a life with her and made many overtures to see to it that it happened. He just ultimately realized that it wouldn't work and he wanted to be with MJ.

As for MJ, I'm no writer, but I think as a reader it was easy to see that her boring-ness came from the fact they gave her nothing to do...

Every character is boring for that reason. There is not a one character that is inherently boring. It's only the way that the writer presents them as being.

But some characters have more dramatic punch than others. Based on who they are, their background and environment they can have a lot or little built in drama.

I'm saying that in the case of a human character involved with a super human character, for the relationship to be interesting beyond the "chase/ will they-won't they point- the human character has to bring some interesting baggage to the table, that rivals the hero's drama. While Peter is out constantly risking his life, his wife looking for acting gigs, possibly being a hostage, maybe being attracted to another man, and maybe getting pregnant is interesting for but so long. With Gwen, there was a lot more potential, even though the other stuff is there as well. It's just that the writers didn't have the vision to see it.

MJ was a public eye character. I don't see how that creates less drama then gwen? who was low-key compared to that. Mj had death threats, media attention, kidnappers, and the contrast between her living a very public life... and peter living a very private in keeping his identity created much more drama. It's when they stripped her of all her media related stories is exactly when she got boring. coincidence? i think not. It's also the reason why MJ and peter's relationship lasted more than twice as long as peter and gwens.....

MJ being the "public eye" character was solely because Marvel pushed her that way. They made the wedding a media event that went beyond the comics, having actors play them at Shea Stadium, home of the then World Champion Mets. They published artwork focusing only on MJ. Toys, etc. She was the love interest in the multi-billion dollar movie franchise. They made stories that centered on her and even whole comic book titles. They didn't do any of that with supporting characters (non-super ones at least) when Gwen was around.

And while yes, the MJ relationship lasted longer, Marvel had constantly been trying to jettison it. They've made no less than five attempts to end the relationship. But they knew they couldn't kill her off as with Gwen. And mind you- there was plenty of public outrage with Gwen's death as well. Sales dropped on the book.