The Amazing Spider-Man When and how should Gwen Stacy die? - Part 1

[spideyboy_1111]

But Peter in the film isn't a nerd at all. He's a kitchen sink character that had everything thrown in that the filmmakers thought would be appealing. He's a character created by committee.

ok.. you're obvious hatred for this movie has absolutely nothing to do with Gwen dying or not at all.. so why don't you just take all this to another thread rather than derail this one?

 

[LegendAssemble]

ok.. you're obvious hatred for this movie has absolutely nothing to do with Gwen dying or not at all.. so why don't you just take all this to another thread rather than derail this one?

i second this.

 

[Shikamaru]

Methinks you've never been to school at all- since you clearly can't read. Peter's school in TASM isn't a regular high school- it's a SCIENCE High School. Thus Midtown SCIENCE High School. Those schools require extremely high test scores and academic grades for acceptance. So- again- everyone there would be a science nerd. Flash wouldn't fit, and Peter would've been school President.




Okay- how old are you? Because you sound like a twelve year old, and I'm doing this with someone that young. Obviously Peter and Gwen had spoken before the context of the film. They'd had an entire, albeit distant- history with each other. It's obvious to anyone with reasonable intelligence that when Gwen is frantically trying to calm Flash down- she's doing so because she digs Peter and doesn't want him hurt. Every eye contact they make reflects mutual attraction. Even a high school kid could spot that a mile away. The fact that she accepts his stumbling, bumbling date request, and then further pursues him to have dinner with her says it even more so.



No, I completely understood the burglar thing. And the point is that Webb takes us in a round-about way to get to a point that the comics and Raimi's film made a direct line to. Webb was twisting an convoluting something that didn't need any explanation at all. Which is a lack of skill on his part. Peter giving up his search for the burglar- When- he could've easily captured him immediately after Ben had been shot- is a waste of screen time and waste of story opportunity. That's been my major issue with this reboot. They're wasting time with things that have already been covered, and covered quite adeptly. There are many more Spider-Man stories to tell than the origin and Peter learning the great responsibility lesson. They wanted to focus on the parents? Fine- do that. Don't keep retreading history.



He takes credit for his father's research.
He blames his parents for dying.
He fights with Ben over nothing.
He doesn't acknowledge that Ben has been his father in absence of Richard.
He doesn't comfort Aunt May after Ben's death.
Gwen tries to comfort him and he brushes her off.
He goes on the meaningless search and destroy mission after Ben's killer.
He runs from the street gang that he could clearly have beaten to a pulp.
He asks Gwen out, and then never takes her out. Gwen has to invite him to dinner.
He goes to dinner and provokes Gwen's father.
As Spidey he provokes the cops. "I just did your job for you"
On the bridge, he takes off his mask to assure the kid he's a normal guy, while lifting a car.
He leaves the other drivers dangling from the bridge.
He wears a mask, yet has a camera with his name on it.
He leaves Stacy to fight the Lizard alone.
He doesn't comfort Gwen when her father dies, and he still disregards her father's dying wish. To explain- Peter certainly could have been at the funeral and comforted Gwen and then explained that he couldn't go on seeing her.

These are what I remember and I won't watch that movie again. Twice was too much.

Now- I will say that it wasn't only Peter that was poorly written. Pretty much every character in the film was miles off base. The entire script was terrible.



Okay, this is nothing but wishful conjecture on your part. Of course they will continue to make more Spider-Man films, just as they will make more Batman films. But Webb said his story was a trilogy- nothing more need be said.



He did not and does not struggle with it as presented in this film. He contends with himself wondering why he can't ever be happy. Have a life of his own. But he never misunderstands what responsible behavior is- as he does in TASM. Of course, circa 1982 the writing in the comics really began to go down the tubes, and since then Peter has engaged in extremely idiotic behavior, so I'm not really referring to any of that. But again, under Stan Lee's run, Peter always got it. Even in the "Spider-Man No More" story, his lapse was only momentary and again- not because of a lack of comprehension as in TASM- but because he was fed-up with doing a thankless job and concerned that he might even be doing it for the wrong reasons.



You're comparing box office figures of a film ten years ago. Even Spidey 3's money is from five years ago. In terms of ticket sales, TASM is far- far below the sales generated by the first 3, and this is with a larger release, and a higher budget than all but Spidey 3. International money doesn't count for much since there's only about a 40 percent return on it, versus a 50 percent return on domestic. So the movie has only made about 350 million bucks. But the main point is, that this film didn't generate the level of audience response as the first three. People didn't care about seeing it, because it offered nothing new.


Raimi's films were campy? Where was that? If you want to point to simply light-hearted moments, then there are just as many in TASM.

The problem in your and others' analysis is that people seem to have a generational-cultural shift as to what is acceptable. So, things being presented as more cynical and callous are considered serious while things that are less so are considered campy. The problem is that the bar moves every few years. In Superman '78 Lex Luthor joked about the deaths of innocent millions, while in Batman '89 they actually showed the Joker killing people. So one was then considered campy while the other "dark". Then in Spider-Man the Goblin vaporizes his enemies. So that is considered dark and Batman '89 is now campy. Honestly I don't know what is supposed to make TASM gritty aside from that it was shot a lot at night and maybe that Ben was actually shown being shot, Stacy was shown being disemboweled... Or maybe it's just wishful thinking on the part of fans.

As far as the Goblin and what he wanted- it was stated- POWER. Both via his corporation and by the physical violence of the Goblin himself. He wanted Peter to be his "partner" (nee- underling) and assist him in that. It's a very realistic goal, as we see everyday people, criminal organizations, corporations, nations pursuing that very simple goal. I'm surprised that needed to be spelled out for you. The Lizard's total bat-sh**tery of wanting to turn the world into Lizards may have made sense to you and him, but it was a pretty frickin' stupid concept to build a film around, and was yes- very campy.

Oh...My...God. Are you serious about this post? I'm seriously not trying to offend you. That is an honest question. Dude, do you have any idea what you've just said? Most of your "complaints" (especially for the "Peter is a jerk and a moron" part of this post) are either stuff from the comics that you bashed, stuff from Peter's origin that you bashed, character traits Peter grew out of by the end of the movie due to good character development that you bashed, moments of him going through serious depression that you bashed, and the list goes on. You're literally inventing reasons for the movie to not make sense. You're even suggesting Peter should've left Ben to die alone so he could catch the guy that shot him. I'm almost positive that you've never picked up a Spider-Man comic in your whole life or understands what character arcs are and what important plot points are. Hell, you didn't even understand what was going on in the movie since you brought up stuff like "He blames his parents for dying". I really don't know where to start with this post. I guess I'll start with your list of why Peter is a jerk and a moron.

He takes credit for his father's research.
He blames his parents for dying.

He never takes credit for his dad's research. He just can't let people know where he found it. Became pretty obvious that his dad was trying to keep things hidden, had he just told them "my dad left a case full of notes and stuff" well that'd kinda undo the very reason his dad hid that stuff and ran in the first place. He also doesn't blame his parents for dying. He blames his father for just abandoning him at his uncle's house without ever explaining why or where they were going. Just left.

He fights with Ben over nothing.
He doesn't acknowledge that Ben has been his father in absence of Richard.

He fights with Ben over nothing? He thinks he's closer to finding out more about his parents and why they left, which he can't tell Ben about, yet Ben wants to know where he was and why he was late picking up May when he'd promised he'd be there... and he can't even try to explain why. Even if you had a point (which you don't), he acts that way with Ben in EVERY single comic and adaptation that does the origin because that is how the origin is supposed to be done. Peter at first is selfish and plans to use his powers for personal gain until the moment his uncle's death changes that. It always ends with Peter getting into an argument with Ben before he gets killed (which is a normal teen characteristic BTW). Way to go on bashing Spidey's origin.

You definitely missed the scene where Ben tells Peter he knows it's been hard for him without his father and Peter replies with "Uncle Ben, you're a great dad."

He doesn't comfort Aunt May after Ben's death.
Gwen tries to comfort him and he brushes her off.

He doesn't comfort Aunt May? Since when?
He brushes Gwen off because, golly, some people react to pain and tragedy differently. In Peter's case, he wants to be left alone for a while. "OMG NOBODY EVER DOES THAT EVER UNLESS THEY"RE A D*CK!" Bull.

He goes on the meaningless search and destroy mission after Ben's killer.
He runs from the street gang that he could clearly have beaten to a pulp.

Dude, that's what I was explaining in my last reply to you. Yes, he does become Spider-Man at first to go on a search and destroy mission. But by the end of the film, he realizes those aren't the right intentions a superhero should have and becomes the Spidey that fights crime because he believes it's his responsibility to do so. His motivation goes from revenge to responsibility. That's called "character development". You might have heard of it. If you couldn't understand even that basic character arc in the film, you can't expect to be taken seriously by anyone here. And "meaningless"? So now trying to catch Ben's murderer and bring him to justice is a problem? This also coming from the guy who said in his last post that Peter is a jerk for not being as focused on catching Ben's killer by the end of the movie as he was at the beginning. Contradictory much?

He runs from a gang with weapons. Knives. Peter doesn't know how to fight at this point. Sure he could punch a couple, bust some jaws, but he'd still get stabbed.

He asks Gwen out, and then never takes her out. Gwen has to invite him to dinner.
He goes to dinner and provokes Gwen's father.

He asks Gwen out and she invites him to dinner to meet her family. Not uncommon. This isn't exactly the 1950s.
He gets in an argument where he grows frustrated because "he" is being accused of being a thoughtless vigilante with a vendetta that's going to hurt people when he thinks of himself as trying to do the right thing. Anyone in that situation would do that. It's normal and not a jerk move at all.

As Spidey he provokes the cops. "I just did your job for you"
On the bridge, he takes off his mask to assure the kid he's a normal guy, while lifting a car.
He leaves the other drivers dangling from the bridge.

You're complaining he smarts off the cops? Jesus freakin' Christ, he does that ALL the damn time in the comics whenever the cops hunt him down. And he takes off his mask to calm the kid down... you mean the one thing that everyone said seemed exactly like what Spider-Man would do? Other drivers also aren't little terrified children in a flaming car. Other drivers can presumably be rescued by the rescue crews that were already arriving. Both of those things he did are 100% Spider-Man traits. This is even more evidence to suggest you don't get the Spider-Man character and haven't read any Spidey comics.

He wears a mask, yet has a camera with his name on it.
He leaves Stacy to fight the Lizard alone.

My God, the poor kid can't afford an extra camera and puts a name plate on the only one he has that he probably had to either save for months to buy or was likely a holiday or birthday gift? That never happens!

He leaves the Captain with a shotgun to hold back the Lizard while he tries to stop the Lizard Serum from launching and mutating Manhattan. Yeah, that's kinda more important. Seeing as, y'know, it's kind of the main point and a lot more people would've been mutated and/or killed had he not done that.

He doesn't comfort Gwen when her father dies, and he still disregards her father's dying wish. To explain- Peter certainly could have been at the funeral and comforted Gwen and then explained that he couldn't go on seeing her.

He disregarded her father's dying wish so he COULD comfort her. He had to pick one or the other. Stay away and leave her in pain to fulfill her father's wish or go to her against her father's wishes. It's one or the other. Once again, if you couldn't even understand this - as simple as it is, then you can't expect people to take you seriously.

I'll address everything else in my second post.

 

[Shikamaru]

Only quoted the stuff I didn't answer.

Methinks you've never been to school at all- since you clearly can't read. Peter's school in TASM isn't a regular high school- it's a SCIENCE High School. Thus Midtown SCIENCE High School. Those schools require extremely high test scores and academic grades for acceptance. So- again- everyone there would be a science nerd. Flash wouldn't fit, and Peter would've been school President.

Since when is it a science high school? Peter's school has always been Midtown High School - that is literally it. You can look back to every Spider-Man comic, every cartoon, and even the Raimi film to see that is has always been called just Midtown High School. I don't know whether the real Midtown (to be honest, not sure if the real Midtown HS exists) is called differently but in the Spider-Man universe, it's just "Midtown High School". But even if the real Midtown is called Midtown SCIENCE high school, that doesn't mean guys like Flash being there and Peter being bullied are flaws the film has. It would just mean that Webb and the editors were too stupid/lazy to alter the school's name. In this universe they created, Midtown is intended to be just another normal high school just like in the Spider-Man comics.

EDIT: So after doing a bit of research, it turns out Midtown is real and that it's called Midtown "Science" High School after all. However, it turns out that it's just a charter school, not a school where just science nerds attend. Makes sense. Just because it has "science" in the name doesn't mean it's only for science nerds. I have real life friends that went to St. Elizabeth ART High School and said that not everyone there was a major in art. Some weren't even talented at any type of art. Plus, science doesn't just include Chemistry, Physics, and Biology. There is also Computer Science, Political Science, etc.

Obviously Peter and Gwen had spoken before the context of the film. They'd had an entire, albeit distant- history with each other. It's obvious to anyone with reasonable intelligence that when Gwen is frantically trying to calm Flash down- she's doing so because she digs Peter and doesn't want him hurt. Every eye contact they make reflects mutual attraction. Even a high school kid could spot that a mile away. The fact that she accepts his stumbling, bumbling date request, and then further pursues him to have dinner with her says it even more so.

...um, no. They don't have some distant history. That's why they introduce themselves when they first speak to each other in the movie. And maybe she, I dunno, she didn't wanna see someone get the hell beat out of them? Even if she stopped Flash because she had feelings for Peter, how the hell would they know they had feelings for each other when they haven't even talked before?

No, I completely understood the burglar thing. And the point is that Webb takes us in a round-about way to get to a point that the comics and Raimi's film made a direct line to. Webb was twisting an convoluting something that didn't need any explanation at all. Which is a lack of skill on his part. Peter giving up his search for the burglar- When- he could've easily captured him immediately after Ben had been shot- is a waste of screen time and waste of story opportunity. That's been my major issue with this reboot. They're wasting time with things that have already been covered, and covered quite adeptly. There are many more Spider-Man stories to tell than the origin and Peter learning the great responsibility lesson. They wanted to focus on the parents? Fine- do that. Don't keep retreading history.

He could have easily captured the burglar? Right, if he wanted to leave his uncle to bleed out on the street alone, sure. And you say Peter is the a**hole.

Now- I will say that it wasn't only Peter that was poorly written. Pretty much every character in the film was miles off base. The entire script was terrible.

How is every character miles off base? Explain this to me. Though coming from the guy who complained about Spidey smarting off the cops like he always does in the comics, I don't expect a good answer. The script being terrible is more of an opinion so we can only agree to disagree on that. However, I will say why I think the script is better than the script for the 1st Spider-Man movie IMO. The story flows better and the dialogue is far superior. The story of the hero and the villain are connected and told together unlike in the first film ("Can Peter learn to control his powers? Meanwhile, somewhere out there, a man named Norman Osborn creates a formula that will make him the Green Goblin!"). That movie doesn't have that. Lizard is created from/by Peter. The first movie feels like a completely different film with a new script and a new plot after the origin is done. Not the case here. TASM sets up future events and easter eggs much better. The idea of the Lizard trying to turn everyone in NY into Lizardmen is a classic story from the Spider-Man comics that's been done many times. The closest thing to a classic story SM1 did was the death of Gwen Stacy and it was very half-a**ed since it uses MJ instead of Gwen, she doesn't die, and is very toned down. The dialogue feels very realistic - the chat between Gwen and Peter in the hallway when he was asking her out with all that stuttering in between is exactly like how it would play out in real life - and isn't anywhere as cringeworthy as the dialogue in SM1 was (yes, I do feel that it's very cringeworthy).

Okay, this is nothing but wishful conjecture on your part. Of course they will continue to make more Spider-Man films, just as they will make more Batman films. But Webb said his story was a trilogy- nothing more need be said.

Webb isn't even sure if he is coming back as the director for the 2nd film or if he will even be involved at all with future Spidey films. Plus, just because he said HIS story is a trilogy doesn't mean it can end at a trilogy. TASM 3 might have an open ending (even more open than TDKR's) and any director might step in to continue. Plus, you're ignoring that Sony and Disney are willing to work together since the Oscorp Tower would have appeared in The Avengers so why would they let a closed ending to Webb's trilogy to begin with?

He did not and does not struggle with it as presented in this film. He contends with himself wondering why he can't ever be happy. Have a life of his own. But he never misunderstands what responsible behavior is- as he does in TASM. Of course, circa 1982 the writing in the comics really began to go down the tubes, and since then Peter has engaged in extremely idiotic behavior, so I'm not really referring to any of that. But again, under Stan Lee's run, Peter always got it. Even in the "Spider-Man No More" story, his lapse was only momentary and again- not because of a lack of comprehension as in TASM- but because he was fed-up with doing a thankless job and concerned that he might even be doing it for the wrong reasons.

I addressed most of this stuff in my responses before. Also, Peter continued to struggle with Uncle Ben's message to him even in the early days, including his high school years. That wasn't something that came in the 1980's. And like I said, by the end of TASM, he becomes the Spider-Man that tries to stay true to the philosophy his uncle lived by (great power = great responsibility) as opposed to the vigilante that tries to catch Ben's murderer mainly for vengeance.

Wow. I need a third long-a** post to answer all the BS. Screw it. I'll do it later.

 

[Oscorp]

Once again, it's a pleasure reading your posts Shikamaru! You hit home run everytime!

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Seconded. Out of the park!

 

[©KAW]

He is pretty good.

 

[LegendAssemble]

Wait....Midtown Science High School? I don't remember that? Plus I was in high school like two years ago, and i remember some of the biggest bully jock type people had good gpa's. This one kid was like 6.5, sold lots of weed, was on the varsity football and baseball team, got a baseball schoolarship, partied and brought like kegs with him, was involved in brawls, and tried to fight everyone had a 3.7. Thats an A average. I don't know why you think smart people are good hearted in nature? Someone like Flash wouldn't have gotten into a science school, no, but could someone of his nature be popular, why yes.

Teen boys who are tall, strong, and good looking often try to be the alpha male and pick on the smaller kids who can't defend against them. Most people aren't going to object either because they want to be popular as well. That whole post was just completely wrong and uninformed.

 

[Rogue Kira]

Only quoted the stuff I didn't answer.



Since when is it a science high school? Peter's school has always been Midtown High School - that is literally it. You can look back to every Spider-Man comic, every cartoon, and even the Raimi film to see that is has always been called just Midtown High School. I don't know whether the real Midtown (to be honest, not sure if the real Midtown HS exists) is called differently but in the Spider-Man universe, it's just "Midtown High School". But even if the real Midtown is called Midtown SCIENCE high school, that doesn't mean guys like Flash being there and Peter being bullied are flaws the film has. It would just mean that Webb and the editors were too stupid/lazy to alter the school's name. In this universe they created, Midtown is intended to be just another normal high school just like in the Spider-Man comics.

EDIT: So after doing a bit of research, it turns out Midtown is real and that it's called Midtown "Science" High School after all. However, it turns out that it's just a charter school, not a school where just science nerds attend. Makes sense. Just because it has "science" in the name doesn't mean it's only for science nerds. I have real life friends that went to St. Elizabeth ART High School and said that not everyone there was a major in art. Some weren't even talented at any type of art. Plus, science doesn't just include Chemistry, Physics, and Biology. There is also Computer Science, Political Science, etc.


...um, no. They don't have some distant history. That's why they introduce themselves when they first speak to each other in the movie. And maybe she, I dunno, she didn't wanna see someone get the hell beat out of them? Even if she stopped Flash because she had feelings for Peter, how the hell would they know they had feelings for each other when they haven't even talked before?



He could have easily captured the burglar? Right, if he wanted to leave his uncle to bleed out on the street alone, sure. And you say Peter is the a**hole.


How is every character miles off base? Explain this to me. Though coming from the guy who complained about Spidey smarting off the cops like he always does in the comics, I don't expect a good answer. The script being terrible is more of an opinion so we can only agree to disagree on that. However, I will say why I think the script is better than the script for the 1st Spider-Man movie IMO. The story flows better and the dialogue is far superior. The story of the hero and the villain are connected and told together unlike in the first film ("Can Peter learn to control his powers? Meanwhile, somewhere out there, a man named Norman Osborn creates a formula that will make him the Green Goblin!"). That movie doesn't have that. Lizard is created from/by Peter. The first movie feels like a completely different film with a new script and a new plot after the origin is done. Not the case here. TASM sets up future events and easter eggs much better. The idea of the Lizard trying to turn everyone in NY into Lizardmen is a classic story from the Spider-Man comics that's been done many times. The closest thing to a classic story SM1 did was the death of Gwen Stacy and it was very half-a**ed since it uses MJ instead of Gwen, she doesn't die, and is very toned down. The dialogue feels very realistic - the chat between Gwen and Peter in the hallway when he was asking her out with all that stuttering in between is exactly like how it would play out in real life - and isn't anywhere as cringeworthy as the dialogue in SM1 was (yes, I do feel that it's very cringeworthy).



Webb isn't even sure if he is coming back as the director for the 2nd film or if he will even be involved at all with future Spidey films. Plus, just because he said HIS story is a trilogy doesn't mean it can end at a trilogy. TASM 3 might have an open ending (even more open than TDKR's) and any director might step in to continue. Plus, you're ignoring that Sony and Disney are willing to work together since the Oscorp Tower would have appeared in The Avengers so why would they let a closed ending to Webb's trilogy to begin with?



I addressed most of this stuff in my responses before. Also, Peter continued to struggle with Uncle Ben's message to him even in the early days, including his high school years. That wasn't something that came in the 1980's. And like I said, by the end of TASM, he becomes the Spider-Man that tries to stay true to the philosophy his uncle lived by (great power = great responsibility) as opposed to the vigilante that tries to catch Ben's murderer mainly for vengeance.

Wow. I need a third long-a** post to answer all the BS. Screw it. I'll do it later.

GAME. SET. MATCH. Very well put this guys perception of spider-man is so wrong.

 

[Rogue Kira]

Methinks you've never been to school at all- since you clearly can't read. Peter's school in TASM isn't a regular high school- it's a SCIENCE High School. Thus Midtown SCIENCE High School. Those schools require extremely high test scores and academic grades for acceptance. So- again- everyone there would be a science nerd. Flash wouldn't fit, and Peter would've been school President.




Okay- how old are you? Because you sound like a twelve year old, and I'm doing this with someone that young. Obviously Peter and Gwen had spoken before the context of the film. They'd had an entire, albeit distant- history with each other. It's obvious to anyone with reasonable intelligence that when Gwen is frantically trying to calm Flash down- she's doing so because she digs Peter and doesn't want him hurt. Every eye contact they make reflects mutual attraction. Even a high school kid could spot that a mile away. The fact that she accepts his stumbling, bumbling date request, and then further pursues him to have dinner with her says it even more so.



No, I completely understood the burglar thing. And the point is that Webb takes us in a round-about way to get to a point that the comics and Raimi's film made a direct line to. Webb was twisting an convoluting something that didn't need any explanation at all. Which is a lack of skill on his part. Peter giving up his search for the burglar- When- he could've easily captured him immediately after Ben had been shot- is a waste of screen time and waste of story opportunity. That's been my major issue with this reboot. They're wasting time with things that have already been covered, and covered quite adeptly. There are many more Spider-Man stories to tell than the origin and Peter learning the great responsibility lesson. They wanted to focus on the parents? Fine- do that. Don't keep retreading history.



He takes credit for his father's research.
He blames his parents for dying.
He fights with Ben over nothing.
He doesn't acknowledge that Ben has been his father in absence of Richard.
He doesn't comfort Aunt May after Ben's death.
Gwen tries to comfort him and he brushes her off.
He goes on the meaningless search and destroy mission after Ben's killer.
He runs from the street gang that he could clearly have beaten to a pulp.
He asks Gwen out, and then never takes her out. Gwen has to invite him to dinner.
He goes to dinner and provokes Gwen's father.
As Spidey he provokes the cops. "I just did your job for you"
On the bridge, he takes off his mask to assure the kid he's a normal guy, while lifting a car.
He leaves the other drivers dangling from the bridge.
He wears a mask, yet has a camera with his name on it.
He leaves Stacy to fight the Lizard alone.
He doesn't comfort Gwen when her father dies, and he still disregards her father's dying wish. To explain- Peter certainly could have been at the funeral and comforted Gwen and then explained that he couldn't go on seeing her.

These are what I remember and I won't watch that movie again. Twice was too much.

Now- I will say that it wasn't only Peter that was poorly written. Pretty much every character in the film was miles off base. The entire script was terrible.



Okay, this is nothing but wishful conjecture on your part. Of course they will continue to make more Spider-Man films, just as they will make more Batman films. But Webb said his story was a trilogy- nothing more need be said.



He did not and does not struggle with it as presented in this film. He contends with himself wondering why he can't ever be happy. Have a life of his own. But he never misunderstands what responsible behavior is- as he does in TASM. Of course, circa 1982 the writing in the comics really began to go down the tubes, and since then Peter has engaged in extremely idiotic behavior, so I'm not really referring to any of that. But again, under Stan Lee's run, Peter always got it. Even in the "Spider-Man No More" story, his lapse was only momentary and again- not because of a lack of comprehension as in TASM- but because he was fed-up with doing a thankless job and concerned that he might even be doing it for the wrong reasons.



You're comparing box office figures of a film ten years ago. Even Spidey 3's money is from five years ago. In terms of ticket sales, TASM is far- far below the sales generated by the first 3, and this is with a larger release, and a higher budget than all but Spidey 3. International money doesn't count for much since there's only about a 40 percent return on it, versus a 50 percent return on domestic. So the movie has only made about 350 million bucks. But the main point is, that this film didn't generate the level of audience response as the first three. People didn't care about seeing it, because it offered nothing new.


Nah. This film is embarrassingly better than the Raimi films and even more so in the portrayal of Peter/Spidey...

Well, you're right, it was certainly embarrassing. Everything else you're saying is merely a matter of opinion. Peter wasn't funny and Spidey's "wisecracks(?)" weren't funny either.

Raimi's films were campy? Where was that? If you want to point to simply light-hearted moments, then there are just as many in TASM.

The problem in your and others' analysis is that people seem to have a generational-cultural shift as to what is acceptable. So, things being presented as more cynical and callous are considered serious while things that are less so are considered campy. The problem is that the bar moves every few years. In Superman '78 Lex Luthor joked about the deaths of innocent millions, while in Batman '89 they actually showed the Joker killing people. So one was then considered campy while the other "dark". Then in Spider-Man the Goblin vaporizes his enemies. So that is considered dark and Batman '89 is now campy. Honestly I don't know what is supposed to make TASM gritty aside from that it was shot a lot at night and maybe that Ben was actually shown being shot, Stacy was shown being disemboweled... Or maybe it's just wishful thinking on the part of fans.

As far as the Goblin and what he wanted- it was stated- POWER. Both via his corporation and by the physical violence of the Goblin himself. He wanted Peter to be his "partner" (nee- underling) and assist him in that. It's a very realistic goal, as we see everyday people, criminal organizations, corporations, nations pursuing that very simple goal. I'm surprised that needed to be spelled out for you. The Lizard's total bat-sh**tery of wanting to turn the world into Lizards may have made sense to you and him, but it was a pretty frickin' stupid concept to build a film around, and was yes- very campy.[/QUOTE]

 

[PSYLENTGuardian]

Since when is it a science high school? Peter's school has always been Midtown High School - that is literally it. You can look back to every Spider-Man comic, every cartoon, and even the Raimi film to see that is has always been called just Midtown High School. I don't know whether the real Midtown (to be honest, not sure if the real Midtown HS exists) is called differently but in the Spider-Man universe, it's just "Midtown High School". But even if the real Midtown is called Midtown SCIENCE high school, that doesn't mean guys like Flash being there and Peter being bullied are flaws the film has. It would just mean that Webb and the editors were too stupid/lazy to alter the school's name. In this universe they created, Midtown is intended to be just another normal high school just like in the Spider-Man comics.

EDIT: So after doing a bit of research, it turns out Midtown is real and that it's called Midtown "Science" High School after all. However, it turns out that it's just a charter school, not a school where just science nerds attend. Makes sense. Just because it has "science" in the name doesn't mean it's only for science nerds. I have real life friends that went to St. Elizabeth ART High School and said that not everyone there was a major in art. Some weren't even talented at any type of art. Plus, science doesn't just include Chemistry, Physics, and Biology. There is also Computer Science, Political Science, etc.

Before I reply to this post, I just want to say that I agree with everything else you said

But, is there really a Midtown Science High School in Queens, New York? I mean, the MSHS in ASM is fictional. I don't see why you're looking towards an actual Midtown Science High School to use for the fictional one.

 

[Human Torch]

Another thing that failed: Dennis Leary as Capt Stacy.He went from a kindly,almost grandfatherly image in the comics,to a surly,stereotypical "tough" cop in the film.

They might've redeemed the character at his demise if they actually went by his comic counterpart's final request "Take care of Gwen" instead of "Keep the **** away from Gwen".

 

[Oscorp]

I'd want to see the true 616 version of Capt Stacy as well but IMO this version worked very well for this story.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I thought this cap worked well. i think as long as the end results in both what peter learns and becomes from others characters fates.... Im ok with changing them up a little. Though gg should still be to blame for gwen and id prefer her to be dropped.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Before I reply to this post, I just want to say that I agree with everything else you said

But, is there really a Midtown Science High School in Queens, New York? I mean, the MSHS in ASM is fictional. I don't see why you're looking towards an actual Midtown Science High School to use for the fictional one.

There's not. Its just a dummy site for the movies viral campaign.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

of the various dummy sites that one is probably the lamest. :/ haha i just prefer the other two ive seen.

 

[Shikamaru]

Before I reply to this post, I just want to say that I agree with everything else you said

But, is there really a Midtown Science High School in Queens, New York? I mean, the MSHS in ASM is fictional. I don't see why you're looking towards an actual Midtown Science High School to use for the fictional one.

I'm not. That's what Dragon did. He used the actual MSHS to argue that the fictional Midtown doesn't make sense. I argued saying that it isn't the same Midtown as in real life but that it's just "Midtown High School" but that even if it was the actual MSHS (which some people have said doesn't exist either and that the site is just a dummy site but I don't know whether or not that's true since I haven't done much research on it), it still wouldn't be a flaw because it is a charter school and not just a school for Chemistry/Physics/Biology related fields - at least according to the website which once again, not sure if it's true or not (a friend of mine did the research for me). My point is that either way, Dragon is wrong.

 

[LegendAssemble]

I thought this cap worked well. i think as long as the end results in both what peter learns and becomes from others characters fates.... Im ok with changing them up a little. Though gg should still be to blame for gwen and id prefer her to be dropped.

Captain Stacys death was never as iconic as Gwens, so they had more room to change it up. imo.

 

[Doctor Who]

GAME. SET. MATCH. Very well put this guys perception of spider-man is so wrong.

 

[PSYLENTGuardian]

There's not. Its just a dummy site for the movies viral campaign.

I'm aware of that, I just wanted to confirm what was up.

 

[LegendAssemble]

So is anyone still in objection to seeing Gwen die?

 

[AcidMage]

I thought the characterisation of Peter Parker was much better than that of the Rami films. If you go back and look at the old Spidey comics, he was a wise-arse teenager, which is in a way what they captured in the film.

Anyway, I think Gwen should die, but if she doesn't it isn't the end of the world. I'd like to see them do it the same as in the comics - as opposed to Rami's destruction of the scene in his film - but a different death with the same message (Has to choose between her and a group of people, tries to do both, she dies anyway, blames himself, etc) works just fine for me. I think the third film would be a good time to do it - assuming they do a trilogy - because I'm kinda over films just following the arc of everything bad happening in the second film, and the third film just sorts everything out happily.

I think perhaps Gwen should pass in the third film, and Peter's relationship with another woman (Mary-Jane, Black Cat, whoever) should be left up in the air.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I thought the characterisation of Peter Parker was much better than that of the Rami films. If you go back and look at the old Spidey comics, he was a wise-arse teenager, which is in a way what they captured in the film.

Anyway, I think Gwen should die, but if she doesn't it isn't the end of the world. I'd like to see them do it the same as in the comics - as opposed to Rami's destruction of the scene in his film - but a different death with the same message (Has to choose between her and a group of people, tries to do both, she dies anyway, blames himself, etc) works just fine for me. I think the third film would be a good time to do it - assuming they do a trilogy - because I'm kinda over films just following the arc of everything bad happening in the second film, and the third film just sorts everything out happily.

I think perhaps Gwen should pass in the third film, and Peter's relationship with another woman (Mary-Jane, Black Cat, whoever) should be left up in the air.

...until the fourth film

 

[Dagenspear]

ok.. you're obvious hatred for this movie has absolutely nothing to do with Gwen dying or not at all.. so why don't you just take all this to another thread rather than derail this one?

Dude, didn't we argue about ****ing CATWOMAN here? You don't exactly have the right to call him out.

 

[Dagenspear]

i second this.

Of course you do. Birds of a feather...