Who got Engulfed more ?Ledger or Devito

[Kevin Roegele]

Those speaking of realism, realism is just a trend in movies at present. Like superheroes and allusions to the 'war on terror'.

 

[onDgrind]

I completely disagree. Burton did not portray the Penguin this way at all. From one of the opening scenes in the film, the baby Penguin yanks a cat from his crib and bashes it. Clearly, Burton was saying he was born a monster both physically and psychologically. He was born that way before any trauma from his parents tossed him aside.

Sure, being left in the sewer would p*** anyone off. But there is no tragic moment where he is truly upset or conflicted. When he visits the grave, he is putting on a show for all the people of Gotham. Again, single minded with one purpose.

Even when he has been accepted by Gotham, he is silently plotting to kidnap all the children at night, toiling away gathering their names. Doesn't sound like someone who isn't single minded?

Now, Ledger's Joker is also single-minded. He's a monster like Penguin. The difference is the performance is not one note like DeVitos. The opening scene shows a silent Joker, nodding, and sitting on the side watching the bank robbers. In the mob boss scene, he's menacing yet playful. In the scene with the fake Batman, he plays the Joker as a complete monster (LOOK AT ME!!). He has moments where he silently taunts and other moments where he charges into action. There are playful moments of insanity and continual changes in his voice from high pitched to low and menacing. Then there is the slow build ups when he threatens his victims with his knife. All in all, the performance is something very special.

DeVito is good but he essentially acts like a crazed, angry monster throughout the film. The performance is one note.

Regarding the Cat scene with the baby Penguin , you realise he was caged?so am guessing his parents probably leaves him in that cage which at that early stage in ones life , could drive you nuts, they treated him like an animal from birth. And your opinion on Devito just being a crazed angry monster throughtout the movie is not convincing enough, since you saying the Joker was playful at times but also had his monster moments, Penguin also had this characteristics you pointed out here, so your case for the Joker isnt convincing enough , since both villains basically had similar characteristics.

 

[the_scream]

Regarding the Cat scene with the baby Penguin , you realise he was caged?so am guessing his parents probably leaves him in that cage which at that early stage in ones life , could drive you nuts, they treated him like an animal from birth. And your opinion on Devito just being a crazed angry monster throughtout the movie is not convincing enough, since you saying the Joker was playful at times but also had his monster moments, Penguin also had this characteristics you pointed out here, so your case for the Joker isnt convincing enough , since both villains basically had similar characteristics.

He was caged because he was a monster from birth. Burton played that scene for laughs anyway with Pee Wee Herman and his wife giving each other this comical look when the slapstick moment occurs. There is nothing tragic about the Penguin except for one line of dialogue from Keaton which is soon forgotten. The whole thing is not nearly as deep and psycholgically complex as people are making out. Burton created a single minded monster which was effective for what he was. There was no elaboration on his tragic past unless it was part of the Penguin's plot to manipulate the people of Gotham who are surprisingly thick in Batman Returns. They are easily manipulated by the freakshow and then quick to assume Batman has turned into a mindless murderer for no good reason. But that's another issue.

Secondly, your reply is a bit vague. Do you care to elaborate? I wasn't just saying the Joker was "playful". I gave several examples of how Ledger continuously altered his performance. Him being "playful" was just one of these examples.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

He was caged because he was a monster from birth. Burton played that scene for laughs anyway with Pee Wee Herman and his wife giving each other this comical look when the slapstick moment occurs. There is nothing tragic about the Penguin except for one line of dialogue from Keaton which is soon forgotten. The whole thing is not nearly as deep and psycholgically complex as people are making out. Burton created a single minded monster which was effective for what he was. There was no elaboration on his tragic past unless it was part of the Penguin's plot to manipulate the people of Gotham who are surprisingly thick in Batman Returns. They are easily manipulated by the freakshow and then quick to assume Batman has turned into a mindless murderer for no good reason. But that's another issue.

Secondly, your reply is a bit vague. Do you care to elaborate? I wasn't just saying the Joker was "playful". I gave several examples of how Ledger continuously altered his performance. Him being "playful" was just one of these examples.

Exactly.

 

[onDgrind]

Bottom line was both characters were realy good , however if we go by the arguement of any of the characters being one note, it would be the Joker in TDK, at least Penguin had some depth for why he takes certain actions, however the Joker didnt have this, he was just there to cause chaos, why we dont know,which i liked , its nothing everytime you wanna see a guys origin in a movie. So both characters were handled in a way that suits the directors motives and flows with the movie.

 

[DACrowe]

I completely disagree. Burton did not portray the Penguin this way at all. From one of the opening scenes in the film, the baby Penguin yanks a cat from his crib and bashes it. Clearly, Burton was saying he was born a monster both physically and psychologically. He was born that way before any trauma from his parents tossed him aside.

Sure, being left in the sewer would p*** anyone off. But there is no tragic moment where he is truly upset or conflicted. When he visits the grave, he is putting on a show for all the people of Gotham. Again, single minded with one purpose.

Even when he has been accepted by Gotham, he is silently plotting to kidnap all the children at night, toiling away gathering their names. Doesn't sound like someone who isn't single minded?

Now, Ledger's Joker is also single-minded. He's a monster like Penguin. The difference is the performance is not one note like DeVitos. The opening scene shows a silent Joker, nodding, and sitting on the side watching the bank robbers. In the mob boss scene, he's menacing yet playful. In the scene with the fake Batman, he plays the Joker as a complete monster (LOOK AT ME!!). He has moments where he silently taunts and other moments where he charges into action. There are playful moments of insanity and continual changes in his voice from high pitched to low and menacing. Then there is the slow build ups when he threatens his victims with his knife. All in all, the performance is something very special.

DeVito is good but he essentially acts like a crazed, angry monster throughout the film. The performance is one note.

I couldn't disagree more. Yes DeVito's Penguin is a monster and Burton never shrieked away from that, but he did try to give this monster humanity. He was a creature searching for humanity, but he was different and never was truly going to be accepted by society. I got the sense it is hard in some scenes to tell where the act for the Gotham citizens begins and where it ends. DeVito and Burton have both described that. When Penguin visits his parents grave I think the musical cue is where it really is. He went out there for the dog-and-pony show for the press but the way he falls before the tombstone and the music that plays when he looks at it, it is real emotion and then when it turns into his waddle/arch the music gets more self-deprecating and that is when the act really begins.

He is a monster but longs to be a human and in that way is a reverted child who is throwing temper tantrums for life's injustices at him. He does put away his plans to kill the children when he realizes he could really become apart of this world. When Max offers him to reclaim his birthright and become mayor he really does put it all behind him, until he cast out again from society and thrown in the sewers the same way as a child.

This inner-conflict between a man looking for acceptance and a monster wanting revenge is displayed in how he wants to go from "Call me Oswald Cobblepot" to "I am a Penguin!!!" in the third act. He has lost it all at that point. He is a monster and dies a monster's death, but it is fashioned as tragic and poignant in a pathetic pitiful sense like you would see in Frankenstein (1931) or Bride of Frankenstein (1935) and Phantom of the Opera (1925). The cruel disgusting monster who wanted just to be human and accepted as such, but because he is different he never will be. There is almost some Edward Scisshorands in this, except like those originals DeVito is really a monster as opposed to misunderstood.

But that does not make him one-note. If you want to talk about difference of how he plays scenes, that is very arbitrary. He plays the manipulative crime lord in his first real scene, the victim of loss and torment when he leaves the sewers that has some real resonance to it (as even Bruce is taken in by the charade a little bit, because he sees his counterpoint in Penguin), a villain in the Hall of Records, a manipulative politician after that and then a full fledged monster at the end. But his death is played for poignancy.

He has a character arc. Ledger's Joker does not. I prefer Ledger's Joker, but I don't need to knock on what was a truly tour de force from DeVito in that movie. Though I stand by that Pffeifer gave the beset performance in Batman Returns which had four great ones and makes any actress who plays Catwoman after her having to fill some tall boots.

 

[MrQuinn]

I couldn't disagree more. Yes DeVito's Penguin is a monster and Burton never shrieked away from that, but he did try to give this monster humanity. He was a creature searching for humanity, but he was different and never was truly going to be accepted by society. I got the sense it is hard in some scenes to tell where the act for the Gotham citizens begins and where it ends. DeVito and Burton have both described that. When Penguin visits his parents grave I think the musical cue is where it really is. He went out there for the dog-and-pony show for the press but the way he falls before the tombstone and the music that plays when he looks at it, it is real emotion and then when it turns into his waddle/arch the music gets more self-deprecating and that is when the act really begins.

He is a monster but longs to be a human and in that way is a reverted child who is throwing temper tantrums for life's injustices at him. He does put away his plans to kill the children when he realizes he could really become apart of this world. When Max offers him to reclaim his birthright and become mayor he really does put it all behind him, until he cast out again from society and thrown in the sewers the same way as a child.

This inner-conflict between a man looking for acceptance and a monster wanting revenge is displayed in how he wants to go from "Call me Oswald Cobblepot" to "I am a Penguin!!!" in the third act. He has lost it all at that point. He is a monster and dies a monster's death, but it is fashioned as tragic and poignant in a pathetic pitiful sense like you would see in Frankenstein (1931) or Bride of Frankenstein (1935) and Phantom of the Opera (1925). The cruel disgusting monster who wanted just to be human and accepted as such, but because he is different he never will be. There is almost some Edward Scisshorands in this, except like those originals DeVito is really a monster as opposed to misunderstood.

But that does not make him one-note. If you want to talk about difference of how he plays scenes, that is very arbitrary. He plays the manipulative crime lord in his first real scene, the victim of loss and torment when he leaves the sewers that has some real resonance to it (as even Bruce is taken in by the charade a little bit, because he sees his counterpoint in Penguin), a villain in the Hall of Records, a manipulative politician after that and then a full fledged monster at the end. But his death is played for poignancy.

He has a character arc. Ledger's Joker does not. I prefer Ledger's Joker, but I don't need to knock on what was a truly tour de force from DeVito in that movie. Though I stand by that Pffeifer gave the beset performance in Batman Returns which had four great ones and makes any actress who plays Catwoman after her having to fill some tall boots.

I can pretty much agree with this. I see the point in the statement of Devito's penguin being "one note", but I don't fully agree with it. While he was kind of a one track mind, there was reasoning behind it. I think he was only a "monster" because, well, he grew up with animals. You can almost view his actions towards society as instinct, he merely wanted to be accepted as normal, but realizes he is not because he can not fight his instincts. I see him as a looney Quasimoto of sorts. Although I like the Frankenstein analogy in this post a lot.
As for him just being a monster 24/7, I'd have to disagree with that as well. I saw a playful side of him throughout the whole movie, although mixed with psychosis and destruction, it was still a playful side, with the mini batmobile "video game" type deal, and the paddle duck in the sewers. He seemed like a big, crazy 3 year old. I think quite a bit actually went into the mentality of this character, so I wouldn't exactly call it a one note performance. I respect the opinion though, and I'm glad there was examples to back up the opinion.

 

[Cain]

Tim Burton loves horror cinema he was a Vincent Price movie fanatic loved hammer films and loved the universal horror movies which yes did feature a lot of tragic monsters. So that's definitely all over his Penguin interpretation. That's been a staple of his career and I hope he tackles a monster movie. When he's passionate about a project he's showing how he's grown as a filmmaker throughout the years (Ed Wood, Big Fish).

When he phones it in though we get average or below average stuff (Corpse Bride, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory). Even though I didn't like his first attempt at horror (Sleepy Hollow) Burton needs to attempt to return to the genre in a straight up horror movie not a musical. Back on topic this is actually a tricky one I will have to rewatch both performances again to really opine. I won't see TDK again till next week and I've only seen it once so next week I'll pop in the BR DVD too this thread made me curious lol.

 

[DACrowe]

I think he did tackle the subject very successfully in Sweeney Todd. Just because it is a musical doesn't mean it is a classically styled horror movie/tragedy in the vein of Frankenstein, The Invisible Man, The Wolf Man, etc.

Just saying.

 

[Cain]

Yeah but I just want a tragic monster story from him without songs you know what I mean? I want to see him tackle the traditional structure of those type of films with less restraint.

 

[Bubastis]

I can tell that the Penguin is Devito. Penguin in point of fact feels like a steroids version of Devito. Ledger is unrecognizable and creates something captivating, hypnotic, and something completely original while representing the Character beautifully.

 

[the_scream]

I couldn't disagree more. Yes DeVito's Penguin is a monster and Burton never shrieked away from that, but he did try to give this monster humanity. He was a creature searching for humanity, but he was different and never was truly going to be accepted by society. I got the sense it is hard in some scenes to tell where the act for the Gotham citizens begins and where it ends. DeVito and Burton have both described that. When Penguin visits his parents grave I think the musical cue is where it really is. He went out there for the dog-and-pony show for the press but the way he falls before the tombstone and the music that plays when he looks at it, it is real emotion and then when it turns into his waddle/arch the music gets more self-deprecating and that is when the act really begins.

He is a monster but longs to be a human and in that way is a reverted child who is throwing temper tantrums for life's injustices at him. He does put away his plans to kill the children when he realizes he could really become apart of this world. When Max offers him to reclaim his birthright and become mayor he really does put it all behind him, until he cast out again from society and thrown in the sewers the same way as a child.

This inner-conflict between a man looking for acceptance and a monster wanting revenge is displayed in how he wants to go from "Call me Oswald Cobblepot" to "I am a Penguin!!!" in the third act. He has lost it all at that point. He is a monster and dies a monster's death, but it is fashioned as tragic and poignant in a pathetic pitiful sense like you would see in Frankenstein (1931) or Bride of Frankenstein (1935) and Phantom of the Opera (1925). The cruel disgusting monster who wanted just to be human and accepted as such, but because he is different he never will be. There is almost some Edward Scisshorands in this, except like those originals DeVito is really a monster as opposed to misunderstood.

But that does not make him one-note.

I see what you are saying but I still don't buy it. I think your own analysis is deeper and more interesting than anything Burton attempted.

It is implied in the film that the Penguin already knew where his parents were buried. How do we know this? Because we learn later that he was never toiling away searching for them. He was, instead, recording all of Gotham's first borns. The whole thing searching for his parents was a rouse to gain access to the birth records. That's why he pretends to be sad when visiting his parent's grave. He doesn't forgive them.

He isn't conflicted. He's angry just as he was from the opening scene when he yanked the cat by the tail. He's born a monster and acts like one throughout the film. The fact that he was shown to be a monster from birth and the fact that he was always plotting to kill the first borns of Gotham means that he was never really searching for acceptance. Sure, he liked the admiration but this isn't the Elephant Man here. The guy DeVito portrays is not tragic. He's never presented in a sympathetic way to warrant pity. There is never a turn where he becomes anything but a monster.

The line "I am a Penguin" was not about being rejected from society. It's out of anger that he was being manipulated. Burton never shows the Penguin as someone who is depressed or deflated from being an outcast. He is presented as a manipulative monster who, even when being accepted, is still plotting a hideous revenge. This actually makes him a better villain than the one presented in this thread. But the conflicted, tragic creature, he is not.

 

[DACrowe]

Yeah but I just want a tragic monster story from him without songs you know what I mean? I want to see him tackle the traditional structure of those type of films with less restraint.

I somewhat agree. But I thought that sweeney todd was possibly his best movie (a toss up between that and Ed Wood) and one of his 3 or 4 masterpieces. I thought it was brilliant and being a fan of Sondheim's genius musical (probably the best ever written) didn't hurt either.

But I don't the music restrained Burton but released something that wasn't there before. He used the music to express the melodrama in the characters and in that way was allowed to make it almost like a silent horror movie like those Lon Chaney made for Universal in the 1920s. And the character still felt like something Karloff or Peter Lorre would have played in the '30s or '40s except with singing (incredibly complex and brilliant music at that) and buckets upon buckets of blood.

I just really love that movie.

 

[DACrowe]

I see what you are saying but I still don't buy it. I think your own analysis is deeper and more interesting than anything Burton attempted.

It is implied in the film that the Penguin already knew where his parents were buried. How do we know this? Because we learn later that he was never toiling away searching for them. He was, instead, recording all of Gotham's first borns. The whole thing searching for his parents was a rouse to gain access to the birth records. That's why he pretends to be sad when visiting his parent's grave. He doesn't forgive them.

He isn't conflicted. He's angry just as he was from the opening scene when he yanked the cat by the tail. He's born a monster and acts like one throughout the film. The fact that he was shown to be a monster from birth and the fact that he was always plotting to kill the first borns of Gotham means that he was never really searching for acceptance. Sure, he liked the admiration but this isn't the Elephant Man here. The guy DeVito portrays is not tragic. He's never presented in a sympathetic way to warrant pity. There is never a turn where he becomes anything but a monster.

The line "I am a Penguin" was not about being rejected from society. It's out of anger that he was being manipulated. Burton never shows the Penguin as someone who is depressed or deflated from being an outcast. He is presented as a manipulative monster who, even when being accepted, is still plotting a hideous revenge. This actually makes him a better villain than the one presented in this thread. But the conflicted, tragic creature, he is not.

I think you misunderstand. He is a monster all the way through, but he is the sympathetic monster of old Universal horror movies. He is sympathetic in the most pathetic and pitiful sense. His death ends on the sound of tragic opera with a full burial service and Batman watching contemplating how little difference there is between the two of them. The movie did go for pathos for the character. Just because he was a monster does not mean he wasn't meant to be sympathetic.

As for the beginning. I think I'd point out that parents treated him like a monster by putting him in a cage, but yes symbolically he was not normal but a freak. And his parents cast him out because of that. He is different, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to be human. He did want to be human. Yes, he knew who his parents were and the grave scene was an act. I doubt if he forgave them or not as I imagine he is indifferent about them.

But there is something there. When Penguin looks at the graves he does look very sad and the music is very genuine and meloncholy. It becomes more humorous and mocking when he begins marching to the press afterwards because his show was about to begin with his little Penguin march/waddle. If you watched the DVDs DeVito even talks about that scene saying he doesn't know what Oswald would have done if he had met his parents again. Part of him, DeVito theorizes (and he did play the character) would feel a connection to them because they are his parents and he does miss them in his own way and another part of him would want to slaughter them on sight and it would just depend on his mood which side would win out. I think another telling thing on that DVD was Burton gave DeVito a drawing of the character he made himself to use as a starting point for the role. The drawing was of a little rotund boy with flippers in front of a cricus tent with red stripes and white stripes that looked like prison bars. Underneath it said "I'm six years old. My name is Jimmy but they call me the hideous Penguin-boy."

I think that is it all right there. He was born a freak and was never given a chance to be anything but. That is why when he mocks Batman and says "You're just jealous that I'm a real freak and you have to wear a mask," Batman does not deny this.

And again you're right about the general plot, but he is in conflict when Max gives him his offer. He does become infatuated with the idea of being mayor and accepted. You notice when he started running there is no mention or sight of his plot to kill all the children. It is in this second act that he says "My name is not Penguin, it is Oswald Cobblepot!" He is then chased and cast out for being different again by the powerful of Gotham and literally falls off the same bridge in the same weather he did as a baby to gunshots with tragic child-music playing.

He then comes home depressed and announces "My name is not Oswald, it is Penguin!" He really has reverted to his monsterous animalistic instincts, as all the characters in thsi movie have whether it be bat, cat or bird. He has reverted back to what he was pushed into being. He really is someone who wants revenge, but that is only because he was never ever truly accepted. He is an overgrown child who never got his own childhood and so he wears giant diapers, drives around in giant duckies and generally acts like a three year old with firepower.

But there is something pathetically sad about it and at the end of the day the biggest amount of evidence coems from Danny Elfman's very sympathetic score.

 

[onDgrind]

I think you misunderstand. He is a monster all the way through, but he is the sympathetic monster of old Universal horror movies. He is sympathetic in the most pathetic and pitiful sense. His death ends on the sound of tragic opera with a full burial service and Batman watching contemplating how little difference there is between the two of them. The movie did go for pathos for the character. Just because he was a monster does not mean he wasn't meant to be sympathetic.

As for the beginning. I think I'd point out that parents treated him like a monster by putting him in a cage, but yes symbolically he was not normal but a freak. And his parents cast him out because of that. He is different, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to be human. He did want to be human. Yes, he knew who his parents were and the grave scene was an act. I doubt if he forgave them or not as I imagine he is indifferent about them.

But there is something there. When Penguin looks at the graves he does look very sad and the music is very genuine and meloncholy. It becomes more humorous and mocking when he begins marching to the press afterwards because his show was about to begin with his little Penguin march/waddle. If you watched the DVDs DeVito even talks about that scene saying he doesn't know what Oswald would have done if he had met his parents again. Part of him, DeVito theorizes (and he did play the character) would feel a connection to them because they are his parents and he does miss them in his own way and another part of him would want to slaughter them on sight and it would just depend on his mood which side would win out. I think another telling thing on that DVD was Burton gave DeVito a drawing of the character he made himself to use as a starting point for the role. The drawing was of a little rotund boy with flippers in front of a cricus tent with red stripes and white stripes that looked like prison bars. Underneath it said "I'm six years old. My name is Jimmy but they call me the hideous Penguin-boy."

I think that is it all right there. He was born a freak and was never given a chance to be anything but. That is why when he mocks Batman and says "You're just jealous that I'm a real freak and you have to wear a mask," Batman does not deny this.

And again you're right about the general plot, but he is in conflict when Max gives him his offer. He does become infatuated with the idea of being mayor and accepted. You notice when he started running there is no mention or sight of his plot to kill all the children. It is in this second act that he says "My name is not Penguin, it is Oswald Cobblepot!" He is then chased and cast out for being different again by the powerful of Gotham and literally falls off the same bridge in the same weather he did as a baby to gunshots with tragic child-music playing.

He then comes home depressed and announces "My name is not Oswald, it is Penguin!" He really has reverted to his monsterous animalistic instincts, as all the characters in thsi movie have whether it be bat, cat or bird. He has reverted back to what he was pushed into being. He really is someone who wants revenge, but that is only because he was never ever truly accepted. He is an overgrown child who never got his own childhood and so he wears giant diapers, drives around in giant duckies and generally acts like a three year old with firepower.

But there is something pathetically sad about it and at the end of the day the biggest amount of evidence coems from Danny Elfman's very sympathetic score.

Well said, He was born different, doesnt mean he was born a monster, you cant call everybody born with disabilities a monster, the girl born with 8limbs in India wasnt a monster, same with the Tree man, Elephant man etc, its when you lock them up in cages and make them feel inhuman , that you possibly develop hate in them and if that individual cant control that hate, thats when theyhave a chance of becoming monster.Which is what happened to Penguin in BR, Burton doesnt need to explain all this to us, he left it to us to figure it out,its all there.

 

[the_scream]

I think you misunderstand. He is a monster all the way through, but he is the sympathetic monster of old Universal horror movies. He is sympathetic in the most pathetic and pitiful sense. His death ends on the sound of tragic opera with a full burial service and Batman watching contemplating how little difference there is between the two of them. The movie did go for pathos for the character. Just because he was a monster does not mean he wasn't meant to be sympathetic.

As for the beginning. I think I'd point out that parents treated him like a monster by putting him in a cage, but yes symbolically he was not normal but a freak. And his parents cast him out because of that. He is different, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to be human. He did want to be human. Yes, he knew who his parents were and the grave scene was an act. I doubt if he forgave them or not as I imagine he is indifferent about them.

But there is something there. When Penguin looks at the graves he does look very sad and the music is very genuine and meloncholy. It becomes more humorous and mocking when he begins marching to the press afterwards because his show was about to begin with his little Penguin march/waddle. If you watched the DVDs DeVito even talks about that scene saying he doesn't know what Oswald would have done if he had met his parents again. Part of him, DeVito theorizes (and he did play the character) would feel a connection to them because they are his parents and he does miss them in his own way and another part of him would want to slaughter them on sight and it would just depend on his mood which side would win out. I think another telling thing on that DVD was Burton gave DeVito a drawing of the character he made himself to use as a starting point for the role. The drawing was of a little rotund boy with flippers in front of a cricus tent with red stripes and white stripes that looked like prison bars. Underneath it said "I'm six years old. My name is Jimmy but they call me the hideous Penguin-boy."

I think that is it all right there. He was born a freak and was never given a chance to be anything but. That is why when he mocks Batman and says "You're just jealous that I'm a real freak and you have to wear a mask," Batman does not deny this.

And again you're right about the general plot, but he is in conflict when Max gives him his offer. He does become infatuated with the idea of being mayor and accepted. You notice when he started running there is no mention or sight of his plot to kill all the children. It is in this second act that he says "My name is not Penguin, it is Oswald Cobblepot!" He is then chased and cast out for being different again by the powerful of Gotham and literally falls off the same bridge in the same weather he did as a baby to gunshots with tragic child-music playing.

He then comes home depressed and announces "My name is not Oswald, it is Penguin!" He really has reverted to his monsterous animalistic instincts, as all the characters in thsi movie have whether it be bat, cat or bird. He has reverted back to what he was pushed into being. He really is someone who wants revenge, but that is only because he was never ever truly accepted. He is an overgrown child who never got his own childhood and so he wears giant diapers, drives around in giant duckies and generally acts like a three year old with firepower.

But there is something pathetically sad about it and at the end of the day the biggest amount of evidence coems from Danny Elfman's very sympathetic score.

This is well put. You have convinced me that something is definitely there. But I still think that the character isn't as psychologically complex as some have been arguing in this thread. The reason is that the audience is given nothing likable in his character that suggests he is actually something to pity except for Elfman's wonderful score.

This film is a bit of a lost opportunity IMHO. There could have been something very special created about the three orphans: Batman, Catwoman, and Penguin. Unfortunately, apart from a few lines of dialogue from Keaton, there isn't a lot there to explore. The characters are cursed with being theatrical rather than pensive or realistic. Instead, it would have been interesting to pursue these themes on a bit more of a deeper level rather than watching a series of one-liners and cliched plot devices (let's frame Batman!).

 

[BatFan1986]

This is well put. You have convinced me that something is definitely there. But I still think that the character isn't as psychologically complex as some have been arguing in this thread. The reason is that the audience is given nothing likable in his character that suggests he is actually something to pity except for Elfman's wonderful score.

This film is a bit of a lost opportunity IMHO. There could have been something very special created about the three orphans: Batman, Catwoman, and Penguin. Unfortunately, apart from a few lines of dialogue from Keaton, there isn't a lot there to explore. The characters are cursed with being theatrical rather than pensive or realistic. Instead, it would have been interesting to pursue these themes on a bit more of a deeper level rather than watching a series of one-liners and cliched plot devices (let's frame Batman!).

At least it's a hell of alot better than the original draft...Penguin and Catwoman searching for Treasure...What the hell? I mean really? After BATMAN?!

I will agree that Returns should have had more emotional elements in it. However, my favorite scene is still the one where Batman drives to the Hall of Records keeping up to tabs with Penguin. He just looks like a badass while he drives.

 

[onDgrind]

Watched returns yesterday again, Devito deserved an Oscar for that role, was great to watch, even after all this years

 

[El Payaso]

Both DeVito and Ledger were amazing. I simply cannot and don't need to pick one over the other.

 

[DACrowe]

I will agree that Returns should have had more emotional elements in it. However, my favorite scene is still the one where Batman drives to the Hall of Records keeping up to tabs with Penguin. He just looks like a badass while he drives.

I love that moment. It's Christmas time and its snowing on the Batmobile and it looks so bleak as Batman is alone on the streets, not taking a moments rest to spy on Penguin and no one dares go outside because "The Batman" is patrolling and the city seems so...grimly bleak. As does Batman.

I love that scene.

 

[Cain]

I somewhat agree. But I thought that sweeney todd was possibly his best movie (a toss up between that and Ed Wood) and one of his 3 or 4 masterpieces. I thought it was brilliant and being a fan of Sondheim's genius musical (probably the best ever written) didn't hurt either.

Upon watching it again on DVD it was ok. I enjoyed it more at the cinema cause on the big screen it's more engrossing then on my 44 inch plasma. It also felt a little safe at times actually for example had he flipped the aesthetics a little more that would've been bold with the way the story was presented. He deliberately stayed in his comfort zone by repeating pale skin and stripes and grays and honestly Burton is better than that at this stage in his career. However it's definitely his most consistent film since Big Fish. I think it's much better then Sleepy Hollow, Apes, Chocolate Factory and Corpse Bride though.

But I don't the music restrained Burton but released something that wasn't there before. He used the music to express the melodrama in the characters and in that way was allowed to make it almost like a silent horror movie like those Lon Chaney made for Universal in the 1920s. And the character still felt like something Karloff or Peter Lorre would have played in the '30s or '40s except with singing (incredibly complex and brilliant music at that) and buckets upon buckets of blood.

I just really love that movie.

When I say restrained I'm not talking about the music, it definitely was new he had never done a live action musical before. It functioned very well the music, it managed to be one of the greatest characters of the film. I'm saying I'd like to see him tackle an original horror project influenced by all his favorite horror flicks from the 20's to 70's. Without any of the restraint of it being an adaptation or the restraint older filmmakers like James Whale for example had from studios due to Burton working through a more evolved movie system since it's so many years later.

 

[onDgrind]

I love that moment. It's Christmas time and its snowing on the Batmobile and it looks so bleak as Batman is alone on the streets, not taking a moments rest to spy on Penguin and no one dares go outside because "The Batman" is patrolling and the city seems so...grimly bleak. As does Batman.

I love that scene.

That was a good scene, also liked the scene with Batman,Penguin and Catwoman all meeting for the first time