Sequels Who should be the villain in an Avengers sequel? (Poll)

[I'm Venom]

Tony Stark is more than capable of creating Ultron. His foray into artificial intelligence was on display within the first half of Iron Man via JARVIS, and he's arrogant enough to base Ultron off of his own brain engrams. If anything, Stark makes Pym seem redundant.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

The only thing that's redundant is your endless shilling of a terrible, awful idea. It's not even imaginative. It's uninspired and dumb and it won't happen, so give it up.

 

[InternetPeople]

Tony Stark is more than capable of creating Ultron. His foray into artificial intelligence was on display within the first half of Iron Man via JARVIS, and he's arrogant enough to base Ultron off of his own brain engrams. If anything, Stark makes Pym seem redundant.

While none of this is wrong, I am still trying to understand why it would be a good idea.

 

[J'adore]

I want Ultron but I know it is most likely gonna be Thanos

 

[I'm Venom]

The only thing that's redundant is your endless shilling of a terrible, awful idea. It's not even imaginative. It's uninspired and dumb and it won't happen, so give it up.

I find it redundant that you're taking such an "awful idea" seriously. All I'm doing is tossing ideas back and forth here, there's no reason to get upset over someone else's creativity. If you do, then you're just jealous. Sorry about that, chief.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

All I'm doing is tossing ideas back and forth

The same crummy idea back and forth, you mean.

get upset over someone else's creativity

There's nothing creative about it.

 

[InternetPeople]

I find it redundant that you're taking such an "awful idea" seriously. All I'm doing is tossing ideas back and forth here, there's no reason to get upset over someone else's creativity. If you do, then you're just jealous. Sorry about that, chief.

If you were creative you would have moved on to a different idea, slugger.

 

[I'm Venom]

The same crummy idea back and forth, you mean.

There's nothing creative about it.

You're trying too hard today.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I suggest you move on to another subject.

 

[I'm Venom]

Sounds good to me, see ya!

 

[DrCosmic]

I'll take the opposite tack. There's really only two reasons why Stark creating Ultron would be a good idea:

1) It's narratively efficient. We know Stark, we know his capabilities, any movie could basically open with Stark doing this. We are already connected to Stark's daddy issues that he would pass down. You get to the story better and quicker, because of the way Stark is set up.

2) It's available. In a dream world Ant-Man will be in the present day, starring Hank Pym, and it will be designed to set up this perennial Avenger for all his Avengers storylines. I'm not convinced that will be the case. At all. And why should I, other than that's how we would do it? In that very likely Scott Lang-driven scenario, there is no real way for Ultron to flow out of Ant-Man. So if we want Ultron, Tony would be the only way, which would also make a Stark!Ultron a good idea, unless you wanted to boot Edgar Wright and hire a new director that will put Pym front and center.

 

[I'm Venom]

Exactly! It would be a good idea to humble Tony a bit by doing that, and it won't turn Tony into Hank at all. When Tony beats up his wife, we'll talk.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

When Tony beats up his wife, we'll talk.

Can't, Stark's too busy killing foreign diplomats and helping create murderous Thor clones.

 

[InternetPeople]

I'll take the opposite tack. There's really only two reasons why Stark creating Ultron would be a good idea:

1) It's narratively efficient. We know Stark, we know his capabilities, any movie could basically open with Stark doing this. We are already connected to Stark's daddy issues that he would pass down. You get to the story better and quicker, because of the way Stark is set up.

2) It's available. In a dream world Ant-Man will be in the present day, starring Hank Pym, and it will be designed to set up this perennial Avenger for all his Avengers storylines. I'm not convinced that will be the case. At all. And why should I, other than that's how we would do it? In that very likely Scott Lang-driven scenario, there is no real way for Ultron to flow out of Ant-Man. So if we want Ultron, Tony would be the only way, which would also make a Stark!Ultron a good idea, unless you wanted to boot Edgar Wright and hire a new director that will put Pym front and center.

I like you.

1. Is the MCU so convoluted that we need narrative efficiency? Are there too many characters occupying the MCU? Yeah, there's an easy story for Stark (no one should disagree with that) but is it necessary?

2. Marvel wants Edgar Wright because the like the story but if Mr. Wright didn't want to play by Marvel's rules and within Marvel's vision, then Mr. Wright wouldn't get the job. The MCU is Marvel's playground. They have a vision for how things will go. If Marvel doesn't see Ultron coming from Pym then so be it, but I think there would be a lot of furious comic book geeks and they will get really mad and, and, write letters or something.

I don't read the comics but that doesn't mean I want the MCU to stray too far from the comic roots. The reason the MCU works is because of the comic roots. Marvel can do what it wants with it's properties but why shoot themselves in the foot?

 

[I'm Venom]

I like you.

1. Is the MCU so convoluted that we need narrative efficiency? Are there too many characters occupying the MCU? Yeah, there's an easy story for Stark (no one should disagree with that) but is it necessary?

2. Marvel wants Edgar Wright because the like the story but if Mr. Wright didn't want to play by Marvel's rules and within Marvel's vision, then Mr. Wright wouldn't get the job. The MCU is Marvel's playground. They have a vision for how things will go. If Marvel doesn't see Ultron coming from Pym then so be it, but I think there would be a lot of furious comic book geeks and they will get really mad and, and, write letters or something.

I don't read the comics but that doesn't mean I want the MCU to stray too far from the comic roots. The reason the MCU works is because of the comic roots. Marvel can do what it wants with it's properties but why shoot themselves in the foot?

The fact this movie comes out after Avengers 2 kind of tells me that this will be about Hank Pym in the '60s leading into Lang and we won't get Hank and Janet in an Avengers movie. What people seem to be forgetting is that both stories (Pym and Lang's) are planned to take place in the past, because that's what interests Wright.

 

[Chewy]

The Ultron story is resonant because it takes a generally good man, who happens to have a rather large inferiority complex, and deconstructs him completely. Marvel can't (and shouldn't, and won't) do that to their lead character, and without that element Ultron is just another evil killer robot.

It's not that it would be hard to tell an Ultron story without Hank, it's that an Ultron story is empty and weightless without Hank. Stark makes a robot, the robot goes bad, Stark helps the Avengers beat the robot. We end back on square one, we've told a story everyone's seen 100 times, and no one cares.

 

[Chewy]

The fact this movie comes out after Avengers 2 kind of tells me that this will be about Hank Pym in the '60s leading into Lang and we won't get Hank and Janet in an Avengers movie. What people seem to be forgetting is that both stories (Pym and Lang's) are planned to take place in the past, because that's what interests Wright.

No, Wright wanted to tell a story about Pym in the 60s and Lang in modern times. And that was his first draft, 7 (!) years ago. There's no telling what the film is going to be as of today

Thor's first draft took place in Viking times

 

[I'm Venom]

No, Wright wanted to tell a story about Pym in the 60s and Lang in modern times. And that was his first draft, 7 (!) years ago. There's no telling what the film is going to be as of today

Thor's first draft took place in Viking times

I thought Wright had said he wasn't doing Pym. I remember hearing that.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

For discussion:

 

[jaqua99]

because money isn't unlimited. because Edgar Wright hasn't given many details about his Ant-Man movie. because they've already eliminated Hank and Jan as founders. because maybe they want to add some other character. a company is making these movies. they are motivated by more than creativity and appreciation for canon.



why do you keep saying that as if it's a given. Wright might not use Hank at all. Wright's plans might change; ending any development on an Ant-Man movie. this wasn't Marvel's idea. they might haven't even considered it if he hadn't already had that pitch in mind. and what other elements are you referring to? there's no mention of Jan in Phase 3. the only A.I. we've "seen" has been J.A.R.V.I.S.



you do not have enough information to make that claim. it's as meaningless as saying, "Mandarin not having alien rings takes away from him." in each movie, they've drastically changed something. and all of these movies have been serviceable; despite the changes. the Avengers don't have a mansion. the Avengers don't have a butler. they didn't find Hulk in a circus. Rick Jones is nowhere to be found. Justin Hammer isn't an old british guy. Stane didn't drive Tony into the gutters. Nick Fury's a black guy. Hawkeye's not a carnie. this is its own universe. Ultron will be whatever they can market to the larger movie audience.



that's all he does in the books. only fans of Pym care about Ultron's relatively uninteresting daddy issues. everyone else just remembers Thor "having words" with it and Tony Stark transforming into a woman.



i wouldn't get your hopes up. they haven't even properly introduced Thanos. they might skip Ultron and go straight to Kang or Zemo.

....

 

[cherokeesam]

For discussion:

It depends on whether or not the Infinity Gauntlet already exists in the MCU. Technically, it does, since it was already seen in Odin's Treasury in a deleted scene from the Thor movie, and was featured in the artbook for that movie. Some people don't want to believe that because they believe that deleted scenes are not "canon." It remains to be seen how Marvel Studios feels about deleted scenes.

 

[jaqua99]

It depends on whether or not the Infinity Gauntlet already exists in the MCU. Technically, it does, since it was already seen in Odin's Treasury in a deleted scene from the Thor movie, and was featured in the artbook for that movie. Some people don't want to believe that because they believe that deleted scenes are not "canon." It remains to be seen how Marvel Studios feels about deleted scenes.

I feel like it's there if they want to use it that way. if not, they'll introduce the IG some other way. If they want to use it, ie, tesseract gets thanos into asgard, etc, then they can do it

 

[DrCosmic]

The Ultron story is resonant because it takes a generally good man, who happens to have a rather large inferiority complex, and deconstructs him completely. Marvel can't (and shouldn't, and won't) do that to their lead character, and without that element Ultron is just another evil killer robot.

It's not that it would be hard to tell an Ultron story without Hank, it's that an Ultron story is empty and weightless without Hank. Stark makes a robot, the robot goes bad, Stark helps the Avengers beat the robot. We end back on square one, we've told a story everyone's seen 100 times, and no one cares.

I only agree that Marvel won't deconstruct their lead character, because that's not what Whedon's about. But Stark Ultron would naturally be a deconstruction of Stark, not a weightless goon.

I like you.

1. Is the MCU so convoluted that we need narrative efficiency? Are there too many characters occupying the MCU? Yeah, there's an easy story for Stark (no one should disagree with that) but is it necessary?

2. Marvel wants Edgar Wright because the like the story but if Mr. Wright didn't want to play by Marvel's rules and within Marvel's vision, then Mr. Wright wouldn't get the job. The MCU is Marvel's playground. They have a vision for how things will go. If Marvel doesn't see Ultron coming from Pym then so be it, but I think there would be a lot of furious comic book geeks and they will get really mad and, and, write letters or something.

I don't read the comics but that doesn't mean I want the MCU to stray too far from the comic roots. The reason the MCU works is because of the comic roots. Marvel can do what it wants with it's properties but why shoot themselves in the foot?

1) Not convoluted, per se, but it has the potential to be very busy. A storyline that can be done without requiring setting up another character is a better fit, in that situation. Is it necessary? That all depends on how Wright's Ant-Man is set up, so I don't know.

2) I agree, but Marvel's rules for Wright aren't reported to be 'it must lead to Ultron.' I think there will be furious comic geeks, [cue any comic movie, any change from comics]... but that doesn't last if the film is good. And if I'm right, and Ant-Man doesn't lead to Pym, much less Ultron, then Stark-Ultron starts to look like a very good idea.

I could be wrong in hindsight of course, but 'they did rewrites so they threw out the initial pitch' doesn't strike any logical chords with me.

 

[cherokeesam]

I could be wrong in hindsight of course, but 'they did rewrites so they threw out the initial pitch' doesn't strike any logical chords with me.

Why not? Protosevich's script of Thor was set entirely in medieval times, and featured a ton of characters who didn't show up in the actual film. And I'm sure there's umpteen other scripts that completely threw out the first pitch.

(And speaking of throwing out first pitches, Happy Opening Day, MLB. )

 

[Chewy]

I'm not sure whether this is funny or sad: Wright and Cornish were actually writing that first draft at the same time Vaughn and Protosevich were writing their Thor-in-Viking-times draft. It's been a while, lol