Why the hate for Wolverine?

[X-Maniac]

Emotion - Woman you love remarried had a kid and you don't know who the dad is? you just found out there is nothing left of your home.

That's not emotion. That's an event, that's circumstances. Where is the emotion expressed? The emotion is how people FEEL about something - and (since this is a visual medium) seeing it on the screen.

On the otherhand your dealing with the fact that there is a chance to change who you are? Like if your black jewish or gay you can change it. And in the end yep we choose to not be ourselves. That and A man chases the woman he loves.....though she does not love him and they have only known each other for a week tops.

Yes, and there is the dilemma. If a mutant, or a gay man, or a black man, is told they can change the essential part of them that society discriminates against them, what do they do? They feel anger (Magneto and Storm in particular, for different reasons), they might consider it if they feel their lives are miserable because of it (Rogue, the others in line at the clinic). It's a perfectly reasonable thing. Some gay people choose to live a 'straight' life because they cannot bear the thought of discrimination -- they might hide themselves away and not tell their parents or family; they might even get married just to try to fit in and prove that they are 'normal' (and my best friend did exactly that - he got married to hide his sexuality). They might go and see someone who claims to cure homosexuality through psychiatric treatment or even electric shock therapy. Deaf people are now offered cochlear implants - and this (like the mutant cure) has divided the deaf community terribly. Some deaf people view their deafness as a gift and even an advantage; they do not want to be seen as something to be cured. You quite obviously have no understanding at all of discrimination and the choice to end it, to hide from a society that hates you or does not accept you as a whole person.

Key scenes where the only scenes. Other than that she wasn't even just there like Colossus got to be. It was there im not going to say it wasn't but it never gave us a chance to let it sink in. It took away from it's own seriousness. That's how i felt anyways.

Well, she apparently had limited screentime because Paquin was filming something else; but, nevertheless, her character did get some scenes that explored what it's like to be 'disadvantaged' by the thing that others claim makes you superior. Personally, I didn't feel she needed any more screentime in her particular story arc - movie Rogue has no active/offensive battle skills, creative use of her powers is limited by her nearness to someone, so in this series of films she has been the one to illustrate that mutations are not always welcomed, to show the other side of the coin.

Just like people like you cannot stand that ppl disliked the movie? Hey you have NOOOO idea how much i wanted to love this movie, how much of a fan i really am. Im not happy with it is all. I just don't like being told that my opinion is wrong which is what you imply everytime you say something like X3 was better than SR. Is it Hard to believe not everyone feels that way? yes a little IMO (3 letters) does help a little sometimes. Oh and i dunno if you saw the name of the thread yet, but My kind of response was expected. Simple and to the point, the reasons where stated but this keeps going.

I can fully understand that you might dislike it, but going on and on and on about it, as though you are achieving something, is rather pointless, especially on a fan forum. If I really didn't like something, I would eventually just stay away from it rather than keep beating myself over the head; or at least I would give positive ideas for improving things. If you really hate something, why keep punishing yourself? Isn't it better to simply give up on it, to say 'well, i hated it, life goes on' and just move on and find a better focus for your time and energy.

 

[Jan Irisi]

I'd just like to know why is it that jean cant just love scott more than logan. dont mention logans feelings for jean or scotts. and not just "jean is attracted to logan". Why cant, despite the attraction to logan, jean just love scott more?

Ooooo, is this the question you wanted answered? Is this the question everyone is supposedly so scared of????

My answer to that is....who says she can't or doesn't love Scott more? I never saw her loving Logan more than Scott. She may have felt attraction, interest, and even confusion about Logan, but that does not diminish the love she had for Scott.

That satisfactory enough for you?

 

[X-Maniac]

For you to say X3 is more emotional than Superman Returns? I realize you're entitled to your opinion, but your credibility is dead and buried after that.

Superman Returns- Finds out the woman he loves has a child and is engaged, is led to believe his home planet still remains, flying away as Lois says she never loved him, getting beaten unmercifully by Lex Luthor and his henchmen, and slowly descending towards Earth after lifting the New Krypton and throwing it into the vast regions of outer space? Flies to the sun to recharge his strength before making a flying to the New Krypton?

Where was the emotion? Where was it? Where was the dialogue, the conflict, in which that emotion was expressed? You are merely quoting events not emotions. We have to assume what the emotions were. How is flying to the sun an emotion? It isn't - it's just flying to the sun. How is throwing an island into space an emotion? It isn't - it's just throwing an island into space in an action sequence? How is falling to earth an emotion? It isn't.

Where was Lois's real anger at Superman being absent all this time? Where was Superman's guilt at being the one responsible not only for abandoning Lois and her child but setting Lex free? None of this stuff ever came to a head. It was all internalised and unexpressed.

Superman- ::Stands up after Lois takes the Kryptonite out of him and opens the planes latch::

Lois- Where are you going?!

Superman- I have to go back.

Lois- You're hurt!

Superman- ::slowly backs away:: Goodbye Lois.

That scene always got to me. It's very powerful and even though he was hurt, he knew he had to do what he had to do.

I'll agree with that. That scene did have emotion. Not a lot, but it was there.

The only emotional scene in X3 for me was the Beast/Leech scene that I wish could've been expanded on. But we all know that Ratner has that ADD that goes around and didn't care to expand on any scene that had emotion.

The Beast/Leech scene did not, for me, have huge emotion. It was internalised (you must prefer it that way.) We were given a moment where Hank McCoy saw normality (..again, if we are to assume comicbook lore applied and he wasn't always blue and furry, which we can kind of assume from the human-looking Hank cameo in X2). We can't assume anything more. He was never shown considering the cure or anything like that, merely given a taste of normality and showing some interest in the boy's power from a scientific point of view.

Seriously, you can write that crap you write with a straight face? I'm not going to call you any names or use any profane language, simply because that would get me banned and that's what you want. Bottom line you have no credibility, you don't know the X-Men comics, and you're simply just another fan that Fox listens to in order to make sure that they believe what they did was right.

Yes, please refrain from calling me names and using profanities. That would reflect on you more than it would ever reflect on me. I'm well aware of the X-Men comics.. the difference between us is that I am a realist and I can find enjoyment in things rather than beating myself up and reaching for the valium. i watched the Japanese trailer this afternoon and still feel the same excitement for the movie - so you will have to get used to that being how I feel. I can understand you don't feel it, and that is your entitlement, but you cannot change or remove how I feel. You are not some kind of 'Leech' who cancels out enjoyment and excitement.

 

[The Batman]

Ooooo, is this the question you wanted answered? Is this the question everyone is supposedly so scared of????

My answer to that is....who says she can't or doesn't love Scott more? I never saw her loving Logan more than Scott. She may have felt attraction, interest, and even confusion about Logan, but that does not diminish the love she had for Scott.

That satisfactory enough for you?

Then why is it that JeLo fans never mention this in their arguments...the fact that jean simply loves scott more? Why is it always "Jean felt obligated to scott?"

 

[X-Maniac]

Then why is it that JeLo fans never mention this in their arguments...the fact that jean simply loves scott more? Why is it always "Jean felt obligated to scott?"

Of course Jean loves Scott more, but the primal, instinctual, animal, sensual Phoenix feels lust and desire for Wolverine, who is also primal, instinctual and animal. And also, in the movie, she came to see him as some kind of anchor in her turmoil - he was interested in her and she used him as someone to reach out to... She didn't love him, she just needed to reach out to someone who could understand her and was willing to give her a chance...

 

[danoyse]

Of course you knew Jack would survive, considering there's a third movie and Depp is in it. A person would have to be an absolute moron not to notice it or realize it.

Curing Magneto? That wasn't emotional at all. It was just WHAM BAM he's cured. Nothing emotional about it.

Rogue taking the cure? Another one that really made no sense. What you fail to realize is X3 ruined any kind of continuity that X2 created. Rogue, in X2, was slowly becoming more comfortable with who she is and became more confident as well. When she was about to drain Magneto on the plane was proof that she didn't have any fear of using them.

Now in X3, all of a sudden she's back to being afraid and insecure? Hell in X2 she was standing proud and elite with them in the White House while in uniform.

Again, your argument fails and proves your lack of comic education.

Professor dying, Jean's reaction and so forth weren't emotional at all. Again, nothing was allowed to have an impact. Maybe if the moment was allowed to breath instead of cutting away I'd agree with you.

But the fact that you denounce anyone who dislikes this movie proves you are what Fox loves in a blind follower.

And if you're as intelligent as you say you are, why not answer The Batmans question instead of avoiding the issue?

Oh, so you're proving that I have a lack of comics education now? Considering that I've said numerous times how X1 was my introduction to the X-Men and that I only started reading the comics after enjoying the movie so much, your detective work is impeccable.

Curing Magneto was an incredibly emotional moment. Killing him would have made him a martyr to his cause. Curing him? Making him live the rest of his life as the very thing he despises? Seeing him as this wasted old man in a park, without even his good friend Charles to keep company. Awesome.

Then seeing he might not be finished after all in that last fleeting second of the movie? Brilliant.

And no, I never saw that Rogue was all-ready to accept her mutation in X2. She threatened Magneto, and asked Logan where their X-uniforms were, but 15 minutes earlier she was still despairing not being able to kiss her boyfriend.

There's nothing to prove that the sudden appearance of a cure, and Bobby's wandering eyes for Kitty wouldn't make her consider it.

I'm not denouncing anyone for disliking the movie. That's what you're doing. I don't know, maybe you feel some sort of vindication in doing it, but frankly, the rest of us are not impressed or intimidated by all your ridiculous and missplaced accusations.

And why answer the Batman? So he can go your route and take any answer we give as more proof that we're "wrong"? Honestly, you haven't shown an ounce of respect for anyone's opinion but your own.

I know, you're so abused because people make a case for disagreeing with you that you don't like. No one understands you. It must be lonely on top of that mountain of self-satisfaction you keep shouting from.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Then why is it that JeLo fans never mention this in their arguments...the fact that jean simply loves scott more? Why is it always "Jean felt obligated to scott?"

I have no idea as I am not a JeLo fan.

I would suspect it stems from the world of fanfic. Writers and readers gravitate toward that which they would like to see, not necessarily sticking to what is canon.

Perhaps it is just a simple matter of interpretation. This is what they see in the situation. Some people can look at a flower and see just a flower, and others can look at the flower and see a vibrant mix of colors and form and function.

How many people watched the first movie and saw a deep romance between Wolverine and Rogue? How many people interpreted that relationship as something completely different?

One cannot dictate how one views certain situations in films. A number of factors go into the way people see things, and interpret them.

 

[ntcrawler]

Of course Jean loves Scott more, but the primal, instinctual, animal, sensual Phoenix feels lust and desire for Wolverine, who is also primal, instinctual and animal. And also, in the movie, she came to see him as some kind of anchor in her turmoil - he was interested in her and she used him as someone to reach out to... She didn't love him, she just needed to reach out to someone who could understand her and was willing to give her a chance...

Which is all fine. Now my question is, did Scott not understand her? Was Scott not willing to give her a chance? Because it seems that one of the foundation stones for their entire friendship and relationship was that he was quite good at understanding her (one of the best tools to be good at this is time), and keep giving her that chance. Or are you referring to the point that since Scott's already considered "dead", that Wolverine and his instincts are the next best things?

 

[danoyse]

Of course Jean loves Scott more, but the primal, instinctual, animal, sensual Phoenix feels lust and desire for Wolverine, who is also primal, instinctual and animal. And also, in the movie, she came to see him as some kind of anchor in her turmoil - he was interested in her and she used him as someone to reach out to... She didn't love him, she just needed to reach out to someone who could understand her and was willing to give her a chance...

Exactly. I couldn't ever see Jean, in any scenario, leaving Scott for Logan. That was established in X2. I do think she had feelings for him--there was even a deleted scene in X2 that showed Storm teasing her about it. But her choice was clearly Scott.

But Phoenix was an entirely different animal. Phoenix didn't give a crap about Scott. Phoenix was fire and passion and desire, and anything Jean held back on. That's why she went for Wolverine the way she did in the lab, and ultimately he realized it wasn't her.

 

[ntcrawler]

I have no idea as I am not a JeLo fan.

I would suspect it stems from the world of fanfic. Writers and readers gravitate toward that which they would like to see, not necessarily sticking to what is canon.

But it's also surprising how much most writers do agree with each other. As I mentioned before, the vast majority of stories that present an alternate X3 which were written before X3 came out show Jean as clearly being with Scott because she loves him, and not because it's the prudent thing to do and she is a coward for not breaking up. And if Logan challenges her again, she tends to make it very clear that Scott is her one and only choice. This is a scenario which we can trace directly from the movies and which is considered canonical. The only times that I see stories that involve Jean ending up with Logan on a regular basis are X3 sequel stories, set up in such a way that Scott is usually dead so Jean and Logan are free to find each other, or that Scott is out of the picture for so long that by the time he comes back it's already too late (ie JELO already tie the knot, Jean's pregnant with Logan's kid, etc). Otherwise I haven't really come across stories where the writers come up with some plausible explanation as to why the relationship breaks apart. It either involves cheating and being caught by Scott during the act, or the writers at the beginning of the story just asking the readers to assume that Jean and Scott had already broken up.

How many people watched the first movie and saw a deep romance between Wolverine and Rogue? How many people interpreted that relationship as something completely different?

I considered it a big brother / little sister / guardian type of relationshi. He even refers to her as "kid", does he not? I'd hardly consider that a romance based on people being on an equal pedestial.

One cannot dictate how one views certain situations in films. A number of factors go into the way people see things, and interpret them.

Agreed

 

[X-Maniac]

Which is all fine. Now my question is, did Scott not understand her? Was Scott not willing to give her a chance? Because it seems that one of the foundation stones for their entire friendship and relationship was that he was quite good at understanding her (one of the best tools to be good at this is time), and keep giving her that chance. Or are you referring to the point that since Scott's already considered "dead", that Wolverine and his instincts are the next best things?

Scott connected with 'good' Jean. Wolverine connected with dark Phoenix...

Scott seemingly died when the Phoenix personality first surged forward to gain full dominance... After he died, Wolverine was the next best thing, the only one willing to give her a chance... Storm was depicted as not giving her a chance at all, and the reactions of the other students weren't shown... so it looked as though Wolverine's interest in her was her only lifeline (because Scott was dead).

 

[Jan Irisi]

I considered it a big brother / little sister / guardian type of relationshi. He even refers to her as "kid", does he not? I'd hardly consider that a romance based on people being on an equal pedestial.

However, many did see something more in their relationship. Kid could be a term of endearment. (Bogart used it to great effect after all...."Here's looking at you kid")

 

[ntcrawler]

However, many did see something more in their relationship. Kid could be a term of endearment. (Bogart used it to great effect after all...."Here's looking at you kid")

Slight nitpick: since Casablanca was made in 1943, wasn't that a different use for the term "kid" at the time? The same way men would also refer to women as "broad" or "tuts" or "doll"?

 

[PhoenixRisen]

She DOES NOT, I say again DOES NOT have the ability to transfer energy into an object, she DOES not have the power to raise an object's energy state, she DOES NOT have the ability to build up an object's kinetic energy (this is something that Gambit can do, and NOT Jean), and therefore the assumption that she can increase another mutant's power levels and therefore increase their powers is completely baseless, illogical, not supported at all, and downright ridiculous.

Um, news flash...Phoenix can weave the very fabric of reality, therefore she can basically do anything she wants. PERIOD! She is NOT merely an extreme telekinetic/telepath; she is a GODDESS--"fire and life incarnate." The adjective most widely used to describe her powers is "cosmic."
From marvel.com [http://www.marvel.com/universe/Phoenix_(Jean_Grey)]: "Her powers were magnified to near-infinite levels while she served as an avatar for the cosmic Phoenix Force. She was able to manipulate matter and energy on a molecular scale, although this varied on the Force's status and how much power it chose to allocate to her." Far from being "baseless, illogical, not supported at all, and downright ridiculous," it follows quite logically that if Phoenix can manipulate matter, in peak form she can manipulate energy as well (ever heard of E=mc²?). To say that Phoenix "DOES NOT have the ability to transfer energy into an object" is the very definition of "downright ridiculous." Phoenix can bring herself and others back to life--by transferring energy into the molecules that compose physical bodies. And "she DOES NOT have the ability to build up an object's kinetic energy"?? Then how does she make objects move without the application of material force? (Note: telekinesis contains the Greek root "kinesis"!!) By definition, telekinetics have power over kinetic energy!
Some of these nitpicks truly go beyond nitpicks when they tread into the realm of submolecular quantum physics!! But hey if you're still not satisfied, why not just write it off as "vague history"?

 

[X-Maniac]

Yes, she can manipulate matter, either on a grand scale or on a microscopic scale.
THis is how she creates the aura of energy around hur, but it does not give matter energy, or excite it. Telekinetics is about moving matter around, not charging it up with energy or exciting its current energy state.
And therefore, you are absolutely incorrect in your conclusion. Jean's telepathy gives her the power to read other's minds, to go into their minds, to plant thoughts, or erase thoughts. Jean's telekinetics gives her the power to move objects, or rearrange them at the molecular scale, or break chemical bonds and destroy things. She DOES NOT, I say again DOES NOT have the ability to transfer energy into an object, she DOES not have the power to raise an object's energy state, she DOES NOT have the ability to build up an object's kinetic energy (this is something that Gambit can do, and NOT Jean), and therefore the assumption that she can increase another mutant's power levels and therefore increase their powers is completely baseless, illogical, not supported at all, and downright ridiculous. This is how her powers work, this is what they can do, and although the ability te manipulate and destroy objects or a grand scale can be impressive, it has nothing to do with the ability to transfer energy into an object or to boost a mutant's powers. Things which she clearly CANNOT do and which are clearly NOT supported by the movies, as it goes against the very nature of her abilities.
You can type in all capitals and shout all you want at people, but that's not going to give your argument anymore weight if it's incorrect and baseless in the first place. Frankly, this explanation is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard you post. If you claim to have read the comics as long as you have and to you something as preposterous as this makes perfect sense, then I am truly disappointed.

I only just noticed this post... due to someone else's response...

You're not correct. In order to move objects, she must give them energy. Kinetic energy. The energy of movement. She does so from a distance, hence tele-kinesis, and by mental control, hence the alternative name of psycho-kinesis. The force involved has long been thought in paranormal studies to be electromagnetic in nature - and, lo and behold, it was stated to be electromagnetic in X3. She applies an electromagnetic force to objects that can make them move, overcoming the natural forces applying to them such as the pull of gravity (as in the rocks etc at Alkali Lake).

Her creation of a firebird is said to be a similar phenomenon to the northern lights, in which the gas molecules of the air are 'excited' and emit the excess energy as light. Her telekinesis excites the molecules. (in the case of the northern lights, it's energy from the sun that excites the molecules).

The Dark Phoenix excites matter to such an extent that it rips free of its molecular bonds and tears itself apart. Except with Wolverine, whose regenerative power knits together those bonds. And whose regenerative power is itself boosted by the energy she provides.

When Jean is making matter or energy behave in a way she wants, she is providing it with the energy to do those things. When she diverted the water at the end of X2, it was not a physical shield she erected (electromagnetism isn't solid), it was the emission of electromagnetic energy that altered the kinetic energy of the water and made it behave in that way; the same applies to when she deflected Cyclops' blast. She was affecting the energy of his blast and stopping it progressing further than a certain point. But that continuous beam of energy had to go somewhere - energy can never be destroyed and it ended up throwing both Jean and Cyclops across the room and then fracturing the wall of the dam.

When you think of it in terms of physics and the laws of physics, Jean was altering the kinetic energy of that wave of water... it wasn't able to flow where the laws of physics said it should, so she must have been removing energy from the water... but energy cannot be destroyed....so perhaps she used that energy to enable her to lift the jet and also it made her glow with the fiery aura as the molecules around her were excited and agitated.

 

[XCharlieX]

Bottom line you have no credibility, you don't know the X-Men comics, and you're simply just another fan that Fox listens to in order to make sure that they believe what they did was right.

Let the record show: this is the arrogance of some comic fans. because we happen to understand the cinematic reasons and smarts in deviating from comics at parts... we apparently have no credibility and were simply a lackey for Fox. Sickening.

 

[gambitfire]

That's not emotion. That's an event, that's circumstances. Where is the emotion expressed? The emotion is how people FEEL about something - and (since this is a visual medium) seeing it on the screen.

Events cause emotions the more drastic the even the more emotion.

Yes, and there is the dilemma. If a mutant, or a gay man, or a black man, is told they can change the essential part of them that society discriminates against them, what do they do? They feel anger (Magneto and Storm in particular, for different reasons), they might consider it if they feel their lives are miserable because of it (Rogue, the others in line at the clinic). It's a perfectly reasonable thing. Some gay people choose to live a 'straight' life because they cannot bear the thought of discrimination -- they might hide themselves away and not tell their parents or family; they might even get married just to try to fit in and prove that they are 'normal' (and my best friend did exactly that - he got married to hide his sexuality). They might go and see someone who claims to cure homosexuality through psychiatric treatment or even electric shock therapy. Deaf people are now offered cochlear implants - and this (like the mutant cure) has divided the deaf community terribly. Some deaf people view their deafness as a gift and even an advantage; they do not want to be seen as something to be cured. You quite obviously have no understanding at all of discrimination and the choice to end it, to hide from a society that hates you or does not accept you as a whole person.

and your saying this is right?

This is obviously a topic that has no right answer but i don't like the way it was shown in the movie meanwhile you did so let's just agree to disagree.


Deny who you are for the fear of discrimination? Some can some can't it al depends on the person.

The Real Rogue wouldn't deny herself that's a fact.

Well, she apparently had limited screentime because Paquin was filming something else; but, nevertheless, her character did get some scenes that explored what it's like to be 'disadvantaged' by the thing that others claim makes you superior. Personally, I didn't feel she needed any more screentime in her particular story arc - movie Rogue has no active/offensive battle skills, creative use of her powers is limited by her nearness to someone, so in this series of films she has been the one to illustrate that mutations are not always welcomed, to show the other side of the coin.

No it's true her screentime wasn't anyone's fault but the final outcome and decision was horrible IMO. As for creative use of her power she has plenty if you can't see it then that's the limit of your creativity. She showed the otherside and it seemed that she was showing that we can change and accept who we are and then...well then it all went downhill.

I can fully understand that you might dislike it, but going on and on and on about it, as though you are achieving something, is rather pointless, especially on a fan forum. If I really didn't like something, I would eventually just stay away from it rather than keep beating myself over the head; or at least I would give positive ideas for improving things. If you really hate something, why keep punishing yourself? Isn't it better to simply give up on it, to say 'well, i hated it, life goes on' and just move on and find a better focus for your time and energy.

Isn't this exactly what your doing? A bit hypocritical No?

Besides im not you and don't do the things you do. I hated this yes but i love where it came from and what it could of been. Im not punishing myself im quite fine thank you. I have a right to post and i will do so.

And your last line you should probably read for yourself before you say it too someone.

 

[X-Maniac]

Events cause emotions the more drastic the even the more emotion.

Yes, events cause emotions. At least, they should. But there was a lack of expressed emotions in SR. As I said before, and now I'll say it again, flying to the sun or throwing an island into space is NOT an emotion, nor did it cause any emotion. So what's your point?

and your saying this is right?.

No, I'm saying it's understandable and similar things happen in the real world.
The whole point of the cure was creating a dilemma in which different people felt different things. And that's what we got. There is no 'right', but how movie Rogue reacted is perfectly understandable.

This is obviously a topic that has no right answer but i don't like the way it was shown in the movie meanwhile you did so let's just agree to disagree. Deny who you are for the fear of discrimination? Some can some can't it al depends on the person. The Real Rogue wouldn't deny herself that's a fact.

Who the heck is the 'Real Rogue'? If you are basing this on a cartoon or comicbook version, that's a big mistake. This is movie Rogue, who quite clearly asked Storm if there was a cure in a deleted X1 scene. There is no doubt at all that a real-life person with Rogue's mutation would seriously consider a cure. You need to put yourself in her position, imagine that you yourself have a mutation that puts you at a serious disadvantage. You show a very poor understanding of how real people might feel.

No it's true her screentime wasn't anyone's fault but the final outcome and decision was horrible IMO. As for creative use of her power she has plenty if you can't see it then that's the limit of your creativity. She showed the otherside and it seemed that she was showing that we can change and accept who we are and then...well then it all went downhill.

Creative use of her powers relies on her being able to touch people for long enough to absorb their abilities. It's very limited in battle situations. It's a power that relies on other people. She has no fighting skills, none of the other comicbook abilities.

Just because YOU DIDN'T LIKE IT doesn't mean it's wrong or doesn't make sense. It just means that you didn't see the Rogue you wanted to see.

What she did seemed perfectly reasonable. Guess what - I'd have preferred her to NOT take the cure and to see her borrowing other people's powers and being in the final battle somehow, but it didn't happen. I can see the logic in what happened, even though I would have preferred something else.

That's the difference between us. I appreciate what was done and why, even if I don't like it. Things aren't done for no reason, they aren't random decisions, there must be a reason for them. By trying to understand exactly what the movie was doing, I can at least appreciate it even if I'd prefer other things to have happened. There's no way we can unmake or remake the movie, so we may as well enjoy it as much as we can if we are X-Men fans.
Not everyone will be able to do this, that's up to them. This is why I buy the novelisations, study the science, buy The Art of X3... to deepen my understanding...

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Yes, events cause emotions. At least, they should. But there was a lack of expressed emotions in SR. As I said before, and now I'll say it again, flying to the sun or throwing an island into space is NOT an emotion, nor did it cause any emotion. So what's your point?



No, I'm saying it's understandable and similar things happen in the real world.
The whole point of the cure was creating a dilemma in which different people felt different things. And that's what we got. There is no 'right', but how movie Rogue reacted is perfectly understandable.




Who the heck is the 'Real Rogue'? If you are basing this on a cartoon or comicbook version, that's a big mistake. This is movie Rogue, who quite clearly asked Storm if there was a cure in a deleted X1 scene. There is no doubt at all that a real-life person with Rogue's mutation would seriously consider a cure. You need to put yourself in her position, imagine that you yourself have a mutation that puts you at a serious disadvantage. You show a very poor understanding of how real people might feel.




Creative use of her powers relies on her being able to touch people for long enough to absorb their abilities. It's very limited in battle situations. It's a power that relies on other people. She has no fighting skills, none of the other comicbook abilities.

Just because YOU DIDN'T LIKE IT doesn't mean it's wrong or doesn't make sense. It just means that you didn't see the Rogue you wanted to see.

What she did seemed perfectly reasonable. Guess what - I'd have preferred her to NOT take the cure and to see her borrowing other people's powers and being in the final battle somehow, but it didn't happen. I can see the logic in what happened, even though I would have preferred something else.

That's the difference between us. I appreciate what was done and why, even if I don't like it. Things aren't done for no reason, they aren't random decisions, there must be a reason for them. By trying to understand exactly what the movie was doing, I can at least appreciate it even if I'd prefer other things to have happened. There's no way we can unmake or remake the movie, so we may as well enjoy it as much as we can if we are X-Men fans.
Not everyone will be able to do this, that's up to them. This is why I buy the novelisations, study the science, buy The Art of X3... to deepen my understanding...

The difference between us is you are a Fox loyalist who accepts anything and don't understand real dramatic emotion.

You're perfectly fine with a rushed X3 with no character development, endless action, and horrible writing.

 

[ntcrawler]

Um, news flash...Phoenix can weave the very fabric of reality, therefore she can basically do anything she wants. PERIOD! She is NOT merely an extreme telekinetic/telepath; she is a GODDESS--"fire and life incarnate." The adjective most widely used to describe her powers is "cosmic."
From marvel.com [http://www.marvel.com/universe/Phoenix_(Jean_Grey)]: "Her powers were magnified to near-infinite levels while she served as an avatar for the cosmic Phoenix Force.

Exactly why your argument doesn't apply. We're talking about the movieverse, which in this case is extremely powerful telepathic and telekinetic powers, but not the ability to warp space and time or he fabric of the universe. no fire and life incarnate, and definitely no cosmic phoenix force. Her powers are an inherent part of herself, and not because some intergalactic entity decided to use her as a host.

 

[PhoenixRisen]

Exactly why your argument doesn't apply. We're talking about the movieverse, which in this case is extremely powerful telepathic and telekinetic powers, but not the ability to warp space and time or he fabric of the universe. no fire and life incarnate, and definitely no cosmic phoenix force. Her powers are an inherent part of herself, and not because some intergalactic entity decided to use her as a host.

I don't recall anywhere in X3 where her powers were outlined and limited in detail. (That's one problem with making declarative statements about the movieverse; it is so far removed from the actual comics that we don't really know what anyone's powers are exactly, except for what we have seen in the movies. I agree with you that the comic-book canon was tossed out the window in X1.) But the movieverse explains that Jean's powers are evolving, so how you can you so definitively place limits on her powers?
And "Endsong" pretty much resolved the "intergalactic entity" vs. Jean Grey duality by acknowledging that in fact they are one in the same. So we can conclude that her cosmic powers are indeed an inherent part of herself in the comics, whether or not she has such powers in the movieverse. So assuming that the movieverse Jean Grey/Phoenix is at least SOMEWHAT related to the comics, stating that Phoenix has control over "energy" is hardly "baseless, illogical, not supported at all, and downright ridiculous." There is a logical base for such an assumption--in the comics.
Regardless, you said:

She DOES NOT, I say again DOES NOT have the ability to transfer energy into an object, she DOES not have the power to raise an object's energy state, she DOES NOT have the ability to build up an object's kinetic energy (this is something that Gambit can do, and NOT Jean), and therefore the assumption that she can increase another mutant's power levels and therefore increase their powers is completely baseless, illogical, not supported at all, and downright ridiculous.

I say again, all of these statements are incorrect. The fact that the movieverse Jean Grey/Phoenix moves objects telekinetically demonstrates that she DOES have the ability to transfer (kinetic) energy into an object, to raise an object's (kinetic) energy state and to build up an object's kinetic energy. Technically, Jean/Phoenix does not alter an object's mass--she alters an object's kinetic energy. So on a fundamental level, her powers are indeed energy-based and not strictly material, as you seem to think. You don't need to turn to the comics to demonstrate you are flat-out wrong...your statements are simply incorrect and contradictory on their own merits in BOTH the movieverse and comicverse.

 

[danoyse]

I don't recall anywhere in X3 where her powers were outlined and limited in detail. (That's one problem with making declarative statements about the movieverse; it is so far removed from the actual comics that we don't really know what anyone's powers are exactly, except for what we have seen in the movies. I agree with you that the comic-book canon was tossed out the window in X1.) But the movieverse explains that Jean's powers are evolving, so how you can you so definitively place limits on her powers?

Exactly. All through X2 it's clear that her powers are evolving, and no one, including Jean, understood what was happening. Cyclops mentions it's been happening "Ever since Liberty Island..." There was no scene in X2 between Jean and the Professor to explore why this was happening, so him finally explaining in X3 about this *other* personality with powers so dangerous that he blocked them did continue what was happening from X2. Different from the comics? Yeah. Throw out the continuity from the first two movies? Not at all.

 

[WideAwake]

Exactly. All through X2 it's clear that her powers are evolving, and no one, including Jean, understood what was happening. Cyclops mentions it's been happening "Ever since Liberty Island..." There was no scene in X2 between Jean and the Professor to explore why this was happening, so him finally explaining in X3 about this *other* personality with powers so dangerous that he blocked them did continue what was happening from X2. Different from the comics? Yeah. Throw out the continuity from the first two movies? Not at all.

I disagree, Danoyse.
Singer has said that the Liberty island sequence holds many clues for future X Men movies, and I believe Jean's little reaction to the radiation was one of them.
I think both X1 and 2 rather obviously imply that Jean's powers evolved because of her being hit by the radiation from Magneto's machine. Jean even repeated Xavier's opening monologue from X1: "...every few 100 millennia, evolution leaps forward". The machine wasn't supposed to affect mutants, but Jean took that leap. She wasn't ready for it, since this evolution was artificial, so she can't control her evolved powers, as is clear in X2 ("my telepathy's been off lately, I can't seem to focus, I can hear everything").

In X3, they just threw all that out of the window, by making Phoenix the dark side of Jean. As you said, there is nothing in X1 and 2 that points to Jean having a split personality due to the mental blocks Xavier put in her mind. So the writers of X3 should've paid attention to what was established in the first 2 movies, and not come up with an explaination for Phoenix of their own.
Jean's "multiple personality disorder" as established in X3, seems like and easy and quick way to get to the Dark Phoenix, instead of just seeing Jean spiraling out of control which would've been much more dramatic, IMO.

 

[XCharlieX]

In X3, they just threw all that out of the window, by making Phoenix the dark side of Jean. As you said, there is nothing in X1 and 2 that points to Jean having a split personality due to the mental blocks Xavier put in her mind. So the writers of X3 should've paid attention to what was established in the first 2 movies, and not come up with an explaination for Phoenix of their own.

Im going to have to side with Danoyse on this. One idea doesnt mean the other isnt possible. Weve got 2 ideas here: liberty island causing SOMETHING to occur. What we werent told completely. In x3, this is fleshed out. What did it trigger? The repressed side of jean that xavier held back for her own good, at least that was the intention.

The second i saw this complaint im just amazed at how folks can reach for problems with x3... i think its more like choosing to criticize.

 

[PhoenixRisen]

The second i saw this complaint im just amazed at how folks can reach for problems with x3... i think its more like choosing to criticize.

DING DING DING!!!

You hit the nail on the head, XCharlieX!! The purpose of my two posts, which proved ntcrawler's statements about the physics behind Jean's powers to be flat-out wrong, was NOT to give a comic-book physics lecture or to debate the nature of Jean Grey's powers. It WAS to illustrate the hypocritical/hypercritical nature of the absurd, endless nitpicks some people flood these threads with, using ntcrawler's post as a prime example!

MISSION:ACCOMPLISHED!!!