Why the hate for Wolverine?

[My Red Sight]

I actually didn't know if she would die. I thought maybe they would go for the happy ending where Jean is cured and lives happily ever after with Logan... Garr. If they did that I would freak. So... i'm kind of happy that Logan NEVER got Jean. Jean's with Scott... dead... or maybe not.

 

[ntcrawler]

e he saw in Jean. Even more proof that it's but an overrated crush, lust, or sick infatuation.

Truth is, he really knows nothing about Jean. He knows she looks beautiful and he wants to protect her like he would anyone else, but to just come up to her after knowing her a total of a week and claim to understand her better than the man she's been with for 15 years is preposterous. Hell, he doesn't know her favorite color, her favorite scent, her favorite song, her hopes and dreams, her fears, what really makes her happy, etc. She confessed her fears to Scott in X2. To Logan she confessed she was worried about Scott.

I mention these things because 1) Logan couldn't possibly know any of these subtle, yet critical things about Jean and 2) he wasn't shown as being interested in knowing these things. He was clearly interested in HER, but not about the things that make Jean the person that she is. Can you see them going shopping together for maxi-pads or Logan standing around for an hour while Jean picks out the perfect perfume scent or shade of eye shadow? Can you see Logan putting up with Jean wearing socks to bed? Can you see Logan putting up with Jean making him rearrange the furniture around the room until it's just right? Can you see Logan projecting a solid, strong mind for Jean to latch onto during her times of crises when her telepathic barriers have a tendency to break down? And can you see Logan putting up with Jean's dietary and healthfood fanatic habits? Probably not. But it's easy to see Scott put up with all these things. Because he was willing to put up with all these things. That is the by-product of true love, and this is why Scott won her heart.

There can be a physical attraction but it takes much, much more than that to develop a mutual love for each other. Infatuation is the best word, since true love takes time, and needs to be mutual. And in the context of what we see in the movies, it's not totally impossible, but it's clearly not happening. Jean makes up her mind, she makes her choice, she stands by that choice, and the choice clearly is Scott. the fact that X3 deviates from this is the reason why that movie deviates from the other 2 films and why this is wrong. Because as I said before, in the end, when it comes to relationships, the ONLY thing that matters is who is the final choice. It's not who ALMOST gets the girl, but who DOES get the girl. And Scott got the girl.

 

[x-fan]

well nt i knew i was going to marry my wife with in a week of meeting her that was 15 years ago 16 in november and yes we are still married, and in x3 we werent dealing with jean we was dealing with pheonix who seemed quite infatuated with logan








edited for spelling

 

[ntcrawler]

I actually didn't know if she would die.

Honestly? I couldn't decide. I was convinced that after it was clear to her that she killed Scott, and Xavier, that there really was no way for her to redeem herself, or to even want to live.

I thought maybe they would go for the happy ending where Jean is cured and lives happily ever after with Logan...

That's when I changed my mind. when I saw that the ground was literally screwn with cure syringes and that they successfully cured Magneto, that they would at least TRY to cure Jean. But obviously that didn't happen. As Logan said to Xavier "sounds like Jean never had a chance". Nope, she definitely did not, at least according to Penn and Kinberg. They are quite vicious when it comes to writing character's fates.

Garr. If they did that I would freak. So... i'm kind of happy that Logan NEVER got Jean. Jean's with Scott... dead... or maybe not.

Ironic, isn't it? Or maybe poetically appropriate? She'd rather be dead with Scott than alive with Logan. It must burn him up to see those two graves next to each other

 

[My Red Sight]

^ I like that, "poetically appropriate." It's like, Scott was barely in the film, but he still had a presence with Jean and they are always together.

 

[ntcrawler]

she died in the comic so she had to die in the movie...which is wierd considering how much they were willing to change other things

What's really disappointing is that in the context of the movies there were so many ways available for actually saving her, and the condition she was in, it would actually have been able to help her cope with things. To me it all went wrong with Alkali Lake. Scott was doing all the right things to actually help keep the phoenix side down and Jean calm and focused instead of anxious afraid or angry. Yet the writers want us to believe that Jean lashed out anyways and for no reason.

It's because in the end, more character deaths = more drama. Or what they refer to as "Adrenaline-pumping fun" like it says on the cover. But to me, watching characters die tragic deaths and for no reason is not fun.

 

[x-fan]

What's really disappointing is that in the context of the movies there were so many ways available for actually saving her, and the condition she was in, it would actually have been able to help her cope with things. To me it all went wrong with Alkali Lake. Scott was doing all the right things to actually help keep the phoenix side down and Jean calm and focused instead of anxious afraid or angry. Yet the writers want us to believe that Jean lashed out anyways and for no reason.

It's because in the end, more character deaths = more drama. Or what they refer to as "Adrenaline-pumping fun" like it says on the cover. But to me, watching characters die tragic deaths and for no reason is not fun.

your right about all the ways they could have saved her, it is my belief that this is why nightcrawler wasnt in the movie also

 

[x-fan]

night guys, im off to bed the wife is waiting for me

 

[ntcrawler]

well nt i knew i was going to marry my wife with in a week of meeting her that was 15 years ago 16 in november and yes we are still married, and in x3 we werent dealing with jean we was dealing with pheonix who seemed quite infatuated with logan

I understand. And ym congratulations to you both That's why you gotta take the character backgrounds into consideration. Scott didn't expect he'd marry Jean and Jean didn't expect she would marry Scott after knowing each other for a week, but there were lots of subtleties happening that let them know that they would one day end up meaning something special together. It took years of hard work and anguish to get to that point, but that's one of the thing both chars had in consideration: that there was something very special about the other person, and that it may lead to something one that. That's one of the reasons why their relationship is considered so beautiful.

And yes, I agree that Phoenix was obviously infatuated with Logan. But at the end, Logan managed to break through to Jean with what he said, and I just don't think that he should have had enough power with those words he used to get to her the way Scott could have. Any other time he tried to profess his love to her, she tried to reason with him and set the record straight. And this time she accepted it? It's hard to believe.

 

[My Red Sight]

What's really disappointing is that in the context of the movies there were so many ways available for actually saving her, and the condition she was in, it would actually have been able to help her cope with things. To me it all went wrong with Alkali Lake. Scott was doing all the right things to actually help keep the phoenix side down and Jean calm and focused instead of anxious afraid or angry. Yet the writers want us to believe that Jean lashed out anyways and for no reason.

It's because in the end, more character deaths = more drama. Or what they refer to as "Adrenaline-pumping fun" like it says on the cover. But to me, watching characters die tragic deaths and for no reason is not fun.

We don't actually know what would keep the phoenix calm. Maybe he was hugging her too tight, or she was still mad about when he attacked her in X2

The point is that we have no idea what would calm her. She used some power keeping Scotts beams in, maybe what sets her off is the use of her powers. I don't know, and no one does.

 

[ntcrawler]

We don't actually know what would keep the phoenix calm.

well it's not too hard to figure out. She was traumatized, afraid, confused, dazed, cold, and alone. She needed safety, warmth, to be held and comforted, to not feel alone. And she was calling out to Scott. And there he is! What better person to provide her with those things than her soulmate? Especially since everyone else already gave up hope for her and yet Scott held out and rode 2500 miles by motorcycle to find her?

Maybe he was hugging her too tight, or she was still mad about when he attacked her in X2

I dunno, she seemed pretty happy and relieved to see him. You're right, maybe he did squeeze her too hard and she went "eeeep" and blasted him back telekinetically into the woods

The point is that we have no idea what would calm her. She used some power keeping Scotts beams in, maybe what sets her off is the use of her powers.

Maybe she got distracted and forgot she was holding back Scott's beams when she lost herself in the moment. Sort of like trying to drive a car home after taking exams in school and not sleeping for 3 days. You forget what's on the exam, and the name of your favorite song. Then you suddenly remember the name of your favorite song, and then you realize the car is about to run off the road. I think something similar happened here.

I don't know, and no one does.

I'll take vague hints of hope over a graphical high-definition death scene, thank you.

 

[Jan Irisi]

hahhahahahahah! you guys make me laugh

specifically your last paragraph, which is basically agreeing with me when i say "Singer set out to screw cyclops" and "He didnt have a chance" are hollow arguments. except they're used by posters and Zak Penn himself to discourage cyke fans from thinking hed have an important role in the third flick.

Also the whole "you guys do that yourself" is hilarious. You had no point to that paragraph either did you? All i see is the fact that, Cyke fans are smart enough to know that singer set something up for marsden, and he was screwed.

which leads to my next point:

http://thexverse.com/community/showpost.php?p=20232&postcount=420

Zak Pen FLAT OUT stated that downplaying cyke was in part because of Wolverine. There is no conspiracy. Its fact.

I blame Fox for purposely putting wolverine on a pedestal while downplaying everybody else.

And the fact that you wolverine fans are so defensive is kinda funny. its almost worse than the storm fans. Almost

Again, I will repeat it again, for clarity. Simple and without the bells and whistles for you.

Jackman clicked with the audience in the first film. Marsden did not.
Fox would be absolutely foolish not to capitalize on the fact that Jackman made an impact on the audience. So indeed, Fox utilized the one character/actor that made an impact on the crowd. Both actors were unknowns at the time. Both had the same opportunity to click with audiences. Again, Jackman clicked, Marsden did not. This process was set about from the first film. It didn't all of a sudden come to light with the third.

And I just need to point out one tiny little detail to you. Look at your own circumstances before you begin throwing stones at "Storm fans" or "Wolverine fans" because right at this very moment, Cyclops fans have nothing to crow about, and have no cause to run around with the "I'm better than you" attitude. None.at.all.

 

[ntcrawler]

Wolverine fans have nothing to complain about. Your character came out on top, got everything that he wanted, as well as his own spinoff.

 

[My Red Sight]

Cyclops could have clicked for fans in the thrid one...

 

[Jan Irisi]

Wolverine fans have nothing to complain about. Your character came out on top, got everything that he wanted, as well as his own spinoff.

It is not a contest.


As to the bolded statement....what?????????? He got everything he wanted??????? What the hell are you talking about????

 

[ntcrawler]

It is not a contest.

Then why is it being treated like it is. The attitude projected by Wolverine to Cyclops seems to be "this franchise isn't big enough for the both of us, bub, so one of us has to go." And Scott had to go. It's business, right? Most popular character stays, and the other character even though he's the team leader has to go. It was done due to business reasons by FOX, as has just been pointed out, again. Of course people are going to be angry!!! It's not that Cyclops was shoved aside, but that he was shoved aside, by Wolverine, who essentially assumed his role for X3.

As to the bolded statement....what?????????? He got everything he wanted??????? What the hell are you talking about????

He got Cyke's bike, he got Cyke's car, he got Cyke's role as a teacher, he got Cyke's role as a leader, he got Cyke's lines in the script, and at the very end, he got Cyke's girl. What did Cyclops get? An early exit from the film and a grave at the end.

 

[ntcrawler]

Cyclops could have clicked for fans in the thrid one...

He clicked pretty good in the first one. He may not have been as flamboyant and emotional as Wolverine, but he certainly wasn't a slacker and he was pretty good about playing the role intended for him, including that of the team leader. His concern for Jean was sincere and rightfully placed regardind Cerebro, his scene watching over Xavier and promising to continue to run the school and take care of everyone should Xavier not recover was touching. He figured out what Magneto's plan was, he put together the strategy for going into Liberty Island, he captained the X-Jet and expertly piloted it, he directed the other teammates to wield their powers in a useful way (Storm for fog cover, etc), he was momentarily stunned by Toad but showed what happens when he gets pissed off, he rescued Jean, he wasn't phased by Magneto and wasn't afraid to ask Storm to blast him to hell, he came up with the strategy to have Storm lift him up closer to the torch to blast Magneto's machine, and when Wolverine offered to go instead it was Cyclops who coordinated his teammates again to have Storm and Jean combine their powers to guide Logan, and finally despite Jean being worried that it wouldn't work, he made a carefully placed, confidant shot that blasted Magneto and made it possible for Wolverine to finish the job.

So yeah, he wasn't exactly a background character or slacker. And he did save Wolverine's life from the sudden attack by Sabretooth in Alberta.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Then why is it being treated like it is. The attitude projected by Wolverine to Cyclops seems to be "this franchise isn't big enough for the both of us, bub, so one of us has to go." And Scott had to go. It's business, right? Most popular character stays, and the other character even though he's the team leader has to go. It was done due to business reasons by FOX, as has just been pointed out, again. Of course people are going to be angry!!! It's not that Cyclops was shoved aside, but that he was shoved aside, by Wolverine, who essentially assumed his role for X3.




He got Cyke's bike, he got Cyke's car, he got Cyke's role as a teacher, he got Cyke's role as a leader, he got Cyke's lines in the script, and at the very end, he got Cyke's girl. What did Cyclops get? An early exit from the film and a grave at the end.

*rereads above...slowly backs away*

Hmmm....is that really how you see the whole situation?

Wow.....

 

[Mike059jig]

Wolverine fans have nothing to complain about. Your character came out on top, got everything that he wanted, as well as his own spinoff.

Ya know...Its so easy to be a wolverine fan...

 

[ntcrawler]

*rereads above...slowly backs away*

Hmmm....is that really how you see the whole situation?

Wow.....

You think I'm making this up? You just admitted it yourself in an earlier post:

Jackman clicked with the audience in the first film. Marsden did not.
Fox would be absolutely foolish not to capitalize on the fact that Jackman made an impact on the audience. So indeed, Fox utilized the one character/actor that made an impact on the crowd.

So yeah, they utilized Wolverine, and capitalized on him all right, at the expense of Cyclops and the other characters. But Cyclops got hit the most. To the point that Cyclops was reduced from playing one of the major roles in the first movie to almost nothing in the third. Tactics like this might be great for business, but it's a ugly way to make a sequel, and it certainly comes out awkward plotwise.

And yes, it hurts. When you take a character who has a strong heart, who's destined to take Xavier's place one day in the future to continue his vision and fight for what his mentor believes in, and then is butchered and destroyed the way he was, yes, it hurts.

 

[gambitfire]

well nt i knew i was going to marry my wife with in a week of meeting her that was 15 years ago 16 in november and yes we are still married, and in x3 we werent dealing with jean we was dealing with pheonix who seemed quite infatuated with logan








edited for spelling

Was she seeing someone at the moment that she cared about deeply?

 

[gambitfire]

*rereads above...slowly backs away*

Hmmm....is that really how you see the whole situation?

Wow.....

He has a point why are you so freaked out?

 

[ntcrawler]

Ya know...Its so easy to be a wolverine fan...

You know, one thing I noticed about Cyclops fans, is that just like their character, they are willing to share. Share the spotlight, share the storyline, share the space in the mansion for guests and other characters. Cyclops fans don't demand that Cyclops be plastered all over the screen 100% or to be THE dominating character. They never wanted that. They just want Cyclops like the rest of the major characters to have a fair share of screen and storytime. Cyclops fans don't mind seeing Wolverine storyarcs, or Storm storyarcs, or stories about Xavier, or Jean, or Beast, or Polaris, or NightCrawler, or anyone else. They only want their fair share, and it's clear from X3 that they got short-changed in the process.

We firmly believe that this franchise is big enough for EVERYONE. There's no need to hog the screen, this universe is big enough and with enough stories to satisfy ALL the fans.

 

[gambitfire]

Ya know...Its so easy to be a wolverine fan...

Too easy

 

[gambitfire]

You know, one thing I noticed about Cyclops fans, is that just like their character, they are willing to share. Share the spotlight, share the storyline, share the space in the mansion for guests and other characters. Cyclops fans don't demand that Cyclops be plastered all over the screen 100% or to be THE dominating character. They never wanted that. They just want Cyclops like the rest of the major characters to have a fair share of screen and storytime. Cyclops fans don't mind seeing Wolverine storyarcs, or Storm storyarcs, or stories about Xavier, or Jean, or Beast, or Polaris, or NightCrawler, or anyone else. They only want their fair share, and it's clear from X3 that they got short-changed in the process.

We firmly believe that this franchise is big enough for EVERYONE. There's no need to hog the screen, this universe is big enough and with enough stories to satisfy ALL the fans.

The guy's cool but he's only Number 4 on my Favorite X-Memebers list