Why Thor or Superman cannot beat Sentry.

Discussion in 'Marvel Comics' started by MajinShenron, May 14, 2006.

  1. Harlekin Business

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    I'll tell you why it isn't canon/in contuinity. They've been stated to be out of canon. Really, it's that simple.
     
  2. MajinShenron Registered

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    The fact that they mentioned the truce and he was sent to jail and stayed there means something doesn't it?

    And please tell me where they say its not a canon.
     
  3. Harlekin Business

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    A) It's never referenced again, anywhere, by either company.
    B) It's not even referenced in the following crossovers (such as JLA/Avengers).
     
  4. Marvin Registered

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    venom beat superman - Spiderman beat venom - that means spiderman > Superman?

    and everyone superman is greater than?

    including who he beat in the equally canon Jla Avengers crossover?
     
  5. Horrorfan Registered

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    It was written. It was drawn. It was printed. Therefore, it is 'reality' in terms of the comic. You act like it doesn't exist. You use what you THINK would happen, whereas people like me use what ACTUALLY happened. You can say whatever you want, but when I say something about it, it's actually avalible to read in print.

    That's ALOT more cannon than some fanboy saying 'omg batman ownz with preptime lolz!!!1!' (not that you are, but you get my point).

    Comics aren't real. Liberties are taken. For example, as much as I hate that whole Punisher / loony toons era where he steam rolled wolverine, I don't think Punisher logically should be able to take him, or any hero, but hey guess what? It's a comic, logic doesn't apply in the same way you would apply it in the real world. It's illogical for a guy to be frozen in ice after WW2 and be woken up, no harm done, decades later. It's illogical for a man to turn into a giant hulk when he gets angry. You can choose to get over it, or ***** about it and look really whiney.
     
  6. Horrorfan Registered

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    But he is right in that it's still not specifically stating 'those comics are not in cannon'. Astonishing X Men doesn't mention what happened in Giant Size X Men 1, that doesn't mean GSXM isn't cannon.
     
  7. Whirlysplat Registered

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    Only One crossover is mentioned in a Marvel handbook and has had knock on continuity for comics from both companies and that's JLA/Avengers.

    - Whirly
     
  8. Horrorfan Registered

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    When it comes to comics, if it's in print, it happened.

    Hell the proof is that you can go and order all the Marvel vs DC sets.

    Continuity in a comic universe is a relative thing.
     
  9. Whirlysplat Registered

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    It is a relative thing. However it's generally accepted that most crossovers are not in general comtinuity as they don't fit with the continuity of said Universes. This though is not always the case e.g. Atom in Wildstorm and the Cosmic Egg from JLA/ Avengers showing up outside JLA/ Avengers. Your point is true about relativity, but misrepresents things slightly. DC/Marvel was fan voted.

    - Whirly
     
  10. rodhulk Registered

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    Well, sometimes for legal matters, things can't always be addressed. However, that doesn't mean that it's still continuity.

    The Marvel fan voting (MARVEL VS DC), for example, cannot be continuity as the final result was not based on a characters ability/capabilities, but rather on.... (as was the whole idea of the MARVEL/DC crossover)... fan voting. :o
     
  11. Horrorfan Registered

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    Lets be honest...I think you mean people don't generally accept crossovers because one of their favourites got spanked (see people's opinions of marvel vs dc). Im perfectly fine with it as canon and as far as I am concerned it is.

    Hell they asked the fans to vote who they wanted to win, they did, and the fans still *****. If you didn't like it, should have voted. It's democracy baby :up:
     
  12. Whirlysplat Registered

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    I spelt continuity - comtinuity :)

    No that's not what I said at all, I never mentioned spanking (strangely you brought that up ;) whatever floats your boat big boy). I just commented on general acceptance of crossover because they don't fit continuity usually and are never referred to again.

    That said if you want to take them as canon fine. Just don't expect many others to agree. Again that's democracy "baby". :up:

    - Whirly
     
  13. Horrorfan Registered

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    We both know thats why people hate the crossovers, because their favourites get an ass kicking and they cry about it :up:
     
  14. Harlekin Business

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    Of course. Keyword being: happened. We do not decide canon. The executives of DC and Marvel do. Sure, the comic will still exist, and you can pretend it's still canon, but that doesn't mean it IS.

    We've gotten a dozen stories where the killer of Batman's parents is Joe Chill and a dozen where he isn't. Currently, the Joe Chill story applies again, meaning that the issues pertaining the origin that state that the killer was never caught are 'obsolete'. That's not what happened, it's what could've happened. It becomes an Elseworlds basically, and we don't treat those in canon either.

    Nope, because neither is canon. One can't be more of nothing than the other.

    I'm not gonna ***** about the comic logic, since that's not actually what matters here. Heck, I could care less that Venom beat Superman in a throwaway crossover. In another Superman became Herald of Galactus (which, guess what, ain't canon either).

    It's about contuinity, and in the contuinity Punisher beat Wolverine, right up until the moment it's stated that the event didn't happen. Yes, the comic can still be sitting in your lap, but it's become an alternate reality. Just like that, with the snap of one person's fingers. Right untill someone else snaps it back into contuinity. That's how it works.
     
  15. Whirlysplat Registered

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    good post:up:

    - Whirly
     
  16. Harlekin Business

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    Thanks Whirly.
     
  17. Kool-Aid Registered

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    Superman should be able to dodge all those punches and webbing.
     
  18. MajinShenron Registered

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    I love it how when two universes meat its means (to you) that its not canon. Jesus, just look at the facts. I'm going to reference this again. Venom and Spiderman had a truce, Venom moved to California and moved back to NYC. Venom somehow got into the DC universe after the events of DC vs Marvel. Venom broke the truce and was sent to jail. Guess what? HE STAYED IN JAIL. No more limited series, no more lethal protector for a while, he was in jail. That means there was a continuity. But why wasn't it pointed out? Well like said earlier legal reasons.

    Then we look at the JLA vs Avengers where they are in seperate universes. Nothing changed, seperate universes.

    Then lets look at the general facts again. Did Marvel or DC ever say it wasn't canon? No, they didn't.

    Just because you didn't like the story, didn't like the results (people always say the fans are smarter, they chose and you guys complain again. Hypocrits.) doesn't mean it's not in canon. Or just because the writer made the mistake or you dont agree doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Do I like the fact they made Venom seem evil and was sent to jail? Hell no, but it happened so I live with it.
     
  19. Kool-Aid Registered

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    Venoms a better character when hes evil.
     
  20. kiuju2k Registered

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    I have those. Venom at ridiculous power levels. I don't see them as canon either. Too much bull****. Like how this same superman who just fought venom took out Prof. Hulk with 1 punch! This same superman also handed juggernaut his ass. So take it up to bad writing or supreme lack of knowledge of the character. I don't know what point your trying to make but, the fact remains to me that the vs. books are not canon. Then again I can't prove that they aren't.

    Sentry(void) can own everybody. Why? He broke every bone in hulks body. Well almost every bone.
     
  21. Anubis Sup?

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    So, kiuju2k, you own this book right? So, tell me. How is it Superman is even in the Marvel Universe or Venom even in the DC universe for this to have happened?
     
  22. MJOILNIR Registered

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    Im new here so Ill give my two cents. VS. threads are a hard to thing to debate. At times writers take powers and charecters way, way out of context. Characters can/are either way overpowered or way underpowered depending on what suits thier storyline. We've all seen it, one character or another beating another charcter that is lightyears out of thier league. At times its plausible with characters with a severe hanicap like supes vulnerability to magic or the green stuff. Useing set stats such as in the original marvel RPG game is a little more finite. It can be quite eye opening to some people useing set stats with the characters in a rpg to which is tougher, but then no one ever agrees with the set stats given,LOL. Well when it comes down to debating a vs. thread is about useless because one fan of this character or that is never gonna admit defeat anyway.
     
  23. BrianWilly Disciple of Whedon

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    If fans of certain characters can't admit defeat, then it's really just them being stupid and not anything inherently wrong with versus threads. I'm a huge fan of Green Arrow and I still know that someone like Thor would rape him up down and sideways across the street. I can understand if the characters' power levels were remotely comparable, but if one character is just completely outclassed -- as for example, Venom against Superman:O -- then it's just kinda stupid to argue otherwise.

    MajinShenron, continuity is relative depending on the editor's whim...but it is only relative depending on the editor's whim. If a fan didn't like Batman beating Superman in Hush then he might say, "That's stupid. That's out-of-character. That's bad writing. I don't accept that." But what he or she can't say is "This isn't canon. This is out-of-continuity." And if someone were to say that, then he or she would be wrong. It is in continuity. Until another writer comes along and tells us differently, it happened within this universe's timeline and sequence of events. Complaining that a scene is written horribly is very different than claiming that a scene isn't in canon, and I don't think either you or Horrofan understand this difference.

    For the sake of argument let's assume that the scene in question is canonical; Superman's a big wuss that gets kicked around by Venom and this actually happened, whatever. But before and after that scene happened, Superman has been shown shattering mountains, flying through stars, moving at many times the speed of sound, and pushing planets around. We know that is what Superman can actually do, so obviously that scene with Venom was a showing of him at his very, very worst. You know Superman is ordinarily stronger than Venom. Everyone who's seen any comic with those two knows this. So even if that scene actually happened within the context of both universes' continuity, it can't be anything but a poor example of the two characters' power levels. It can't be used as much evidence for anything, much less the Sentry's power levels.

    So you're saying that we don't like what happened so we don't accept it as canon. But you're also saying that you do like it so you do accept it as canon.

    So how exactly is your attitude any different than what you accuse ours of being? You accuse us of letting our biases decide continuity for us, and yet here you are doing the exact same thing.

    What in the world does the suspension of belief in a fictional fantasy universe have anything the heck to do with deciding which stories are in canon and which aren't?? You're literally saying that because people shoot lasers from their eyes in these stories, every single story ever printed had to have happened to these characters.

    What[​IMG]? It's like two completely different discussions.

    This is just flat out wrong and you know it, son.

    Do you know what continuity is? If both Marvel vs. DC and JLA vs. Avengers were canon, then the characters should remember the events of the former during the events of the latter. They didn't. Therefore, in terms of the two universes' canon, only one of these events could have ever "happened". And considering that the events of JLA vs. Avengers has been referenced in later DC comic books, we can conclude JLA vs Avengers is the one that is in canon whereas Marvel vs. DC is not.

    So there you have it. Even though Marvel vs. DC is in print, it never actually happened to the characters of the DCU. Such a thing can happen and has happened all the time.

    The continuity of a comic book universe does not encompass everything that's ever printed about a character, especially during mass company crossovers which are by their very definition a very ambiguous showing of the characters in question.
     
  24. supermarvelman Registered

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    At the Supermans current level of power, Venom might give him a good fight but probably still lose
     
  25. MajinShenron Registered

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    BrianWilly, you are mixing up the different levels of Superman. Your right, Superman USED to be able to push planets and move at the speed of light. But he was weakened. Hes no longer a good, but he is one of the strongest heroes in both the DC and Marvel world.

    But then look at Venom, he has been turned stronger ever since he started. He has been able to lift tanks, withstand Juggernauts hit, and when he first came out Spiderman's punch used to do some damage to him. But it soon changed as writers made him stronger to fit the story line.

    The writer might have been wrong making Venom strong enough to tackle Superman but it happened. Not only that but Superman is not the God you say he is. He can get hurt, and is strength isn't limited.
     

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