Why Thor or Superman cannot beat Sentry.

[Kool-Aid]

Do you know what continuity is? If both Marvel vs. DC and JLA vs. Avengers were canon, then the characters should remember the events of the former during the events of the latter. They didn't. Therefore, in terms of the two universes' canon, only one of these events could have ever "happened". And considering that the events of JLA vs. Avengers has been referenced in later DC comic books, we can conclude JLA vs Avengers is the one that is in canon whereas Marvel vs. DC is not.

So there you have it. Even though Marvel vs. DC is in print, it never actually happened to the characters of the DCU. Such a thing can happen and has happened all the time.

Did you know the character Access that first appeared in that Marvel vs DC crossover later appeared in a Green Lantern book? That would technically make DC vs Marvel canon.

 

[Kool-Aid]

BrianWilly, you are mixing up the different levels of Superman. Your right, Superman USED to be able to push planets and move at the speed of light. But he was weakened. Hes no longer a good, but he is one of the strongest heroes in both the DC and Marvel world.

Do you mean "used to be" in terms of pre crisis and post crisis? Because Kal El has moved a planet not easy like he was able to pre crisis though and passed light speed well flying.

 

[BrianWilly]

Did you know the character Access that first appeared in that Marvel vs DC crossover later appeared in a Green Lantern book? That would technically make DC vs Marvel canon.

That's interesting, but now we have two contradictory continuities. I'd say that since JLA/Avengers came out later that it takes precedence, but I wouldn't be sure. Besides, the point I was trying to make is still stands, that there's no way both of them are in continuity.

BrianWilly, you are mixing up the different levels of Superman. Your right, Superman USED to be able to push planets and move at the speed of light. But he was weakened. Hes no longer a good, but he is one of the strongest heroes in both the DC and Marvel world.

But then look at Venom, he has been turned stronger ever since he started. He has been able to lift tanks, withstand Juggernauts hit, and when he first came out Spiderman's punch used to do some damage to him. But it soon changed as writers made him stronger to fit the story line.

The writer might have been wrong making Venom strong enough to tackle Superman but it happened. Not only that but Superman is not the God you say he is. He can get hurt, and is strength isn't limited.

Superman's been weakened a lot from his pre-Crisis power levels, but considering how ridiculously powerful he was pre-Crisis that's not saying a lot. You say that he is one of the strongest heroes in both the DC and Marvel worlds, but the difference in power between the Marvel and DC universes has been getting wider and wider apart for a long time now; saying that you're one of the strongest heroes in the DCU is very different from saying that you're one of the strongest in the Marvel U. Superman's power was relatively tame throughout the 90s, but since then he's gotten much closer to his Pre-Crisis feats than he was just after the Man of Steel revamp.

It doesn't matter if he had help both times, anyone who is able to affect even a smallest fraction of a moon's orbit, much less a planet's, is so far out of of Venom's power range that it isn't even funny. There's just no way you can make an argument for Venom being a threat against someone who can do this.

 

[Kotagg]

Stuff like that reminds me why I don't read DC.

 

[Kool-Aid]

Stuff like that reminds me why I don't read DC.

There's uber powerful characters in Marvel....

 

[Kotagg]

Right, but I've never seen anyone physically move the earth by pulling it along in a MAGICAL LASSO.

I don't know; maybe I haven't read enough of the more bizarre Marvel comics, but there it is for you. There's a certain point at which you try to suspend your disbelief so far that it snaps.

 

[Kool-Aid]

Have you been reading the way Wolverines been writen?

 

[Venom.Symbiote]

Stuff like that reminds me why I don't read DC.

You and me both.

Anyway, in my opinion there is no way Venom should have been able to beat Superman. Obviously from my name you should be able to tell who I like better, but I am a logical person and see things as they should be, not as someone else interprets them. If you want to say that crossovers are canon that's fine but then you must consider that in one of the very first ones Superman stood still while an angry Hulk pummeled him. No matter how hard Hulk hit him, he didn't move. So by the logic of some of the posters here that would mean that Venom has a stronger punch than the Hulk since he knocked Supes around. As much as I would love to believe that Venom could beat up Supes I know that unless he was hit by the red kryptonite ray (like Spidey was in another old crossover) he'd break his hands hitting him unless Supes rolled with the punches. In another crossover Batman knocked the wind out of the Hulk. C'mon now, it was Batman. A guy with NO superhuman strength whatsoever shouldn't be able to hit the Hulk hard enough for him to even notice. That would be like a gnat flying as fast as it could and hitting you square in the back. Ok, maybe a cottonball, I'll give him SOME credit.

I think that if crossovers were canon then Marvel and DC heros would mention each other all the time and help each other out more often. If they were canon, whenever Galactus decided to eat Earth all heros from both companies would show. As it is, each company is a different universe on its own and has nothing to do with one another. I haven't read the JLA/Avengers one but I've read plenty of others and they are clearly written with a grain of salt.

If crossovers are canon then are the movies too? So the origin of Spider-man is different now since the movie told it differently than the comics? What about Dr. Doom? What about television? What about when the Hulk was "Dr. David Banner, physician, scientist searching for a way to tap into the hidden strength that all humans have.....?" Did that change anything in the comic? No, but if all comic related things are canon then it should have.

 

[Kool-Aid]

In another crossover Batman knocked the wind out of the Hulk. C'mon now, it was Batman. A guy with NO superhuman strength whatsoever shouldn't be able to hit the Hulk hard enough for him to even notice.

Captain America did it. I'm not trying to vailidate it though because neither should be able to effect Hulk.

 

[Tropico]

It was written. It was drawn. It was printed. Therefore, it is 'reality' in terms of the comic. You act like it doesn't exist. You use what you THINK would happen, whereas people like me use what ACTUALLY happened. You can say whatever you want, but when I say something about it, it's actually avalible to read in print.

That's ALOT more cannon than some fanboy saying 'omg batman ownz with preptime lolz!!!1!' (not that you are, but you get my point).

Comics aren't real. Liberties are taken. For example, as much as I hate that whole Punisher / loony toons era where he steam rolled wolverine, I don't think Punisher logically should be able to take him, or any hero, but hey guess what? It's a comic, logic doesn't apply in the same way you would apply it in the real world. It's illogical for a guy to be frozen in ice after WW2 and be woken up, no harm done, decades later. It's illogical for a man to turn into a giant hulk when he gets angry. You can choose to get over it, or ***** about it and look really whiney.

Wrong!!!!!!!! All of the Pre-Crisis Superman comics still exist, yet they're no longer canon. Heck, the Man of Steel ret-conn is no longer canon either and it's still exists! Look at the Legion of Superheroes, they've been rebooted twice already. Look at the Elseworlds comics or the What If's?? Have you seen anything to indicate that the Dr. Strange Matrix-wannabe mini is canon? The whole "The Other" and spider totem thing might seem like it's expanding Spidey history but it's actually changing the canon of what Spider-Man was supposed to be. Just because something saw print it doesn't mean it's canonical, other posters have said it before me; learn it, memorize it, live it.

In regards to JLA/Avenger, I do remember reading an interview where it was said that it was canonical. If I'm not mistaken the question went something like: "And will THIS be the crossover that's finally in continuity?" The answer was yes. I think it was in Newsarama and it had a couple of the creators (I think it was George Perez and someone else). It caught my attention because they said that it WOULD impact both universes and I was extremely skeptical because that's what everyone says. Up 'til now only DC has had the cojones to keep their word.

 

[Kool-Aid]

Which they did after the other one too.

 

[MJB]

To start off if anyone has anything to say to change my opinion go ahead. I am open minded.

Sentry was able to defeat Carnage easily, no more than one page. When Superman fought Venom, who is supposedly weaker than Carnage, gave Superman a pretty hard time even with Spiderman helping.

So not only that but when Thor fought Superman he lost so that means he is weaker than Superman and if he fought Venom he would have a challenge (and be being a Venom fanboy I think he would lose ).

Also lets compare Venom in the Marvel universe. He beat Spiderman up easily who was able to defeat Firelord (Venom obviously cant beat Firelord but I am referring to physical strength), he was able to withstand Juggernauts punches and saying "it tickles", Venom was able to beat Wolverine, and there are others.

So how strong is Sentry? I dont think we saw the limit yet but we know he is stronger than Thor or Superman.

Here is a page from the comic since I doubt everyone read it:

Um that Supes vs Venom was the result of bad writting. Supes would mop the floor easily with venom. Since Sentry has yet to do anything impressive, well wake me up when he actually does something spectacular.

 

[Horrorfan]

It's about contuinity, and in the contuinity Punisher beat Wolverine, right up until the moment it's stated that the event didn't happen. Yes, the comic can still be sitting in your lap, but it's become an alternate reality. Just like that, with the snap of one person's fingers. Right untill someone else snaps it back into contuinity. That's how it works.

So show me where anyone from DC or Marvel has said that those comics 'aren't cannon'. Not 'they don't mention it, so it's not cannon', I want to see them EXPLICITLY state, beyond all doubt, that it's not cannon (in those words).

 

[BrianWilly]

So show me where anyone from DC or Marvel has said that those comics 'are canon'. Not 'they don't mention it, so it is canon', I want to see them EXPLICITLY state, beyond all doubt, that it is canon (in those words).

You make up these weird rules for what's in canon or not in canon and frankly it's about as logical as anything you're accusing other people of saying. If events blatantly contradict each other, they are not in the same continuity, simple as that; it's hardly rocket science. It has nothing to do with fan bias or whatever the heck you think. If you'd bothered to read, you'd notice that "JLA/Avengers" and "Marvel vs DC" can't both be canon. Either only one of them is canon or neither of them are. Already your criterion fails: both are in print, but both can't be canon because they contradict each other and therefore do not make canonical sense.

Here's another example: before "Marvel vs DC" was released, both companies had already been releasing "DC/Marvel Crossover Classics."

In this continuity, Marvel characters and DC characters lived in the same universe. Gotham was a city that Spider-Man could visit without going to another reality, and the Fantastic Four were fans of Superman. So here is yet another company crossover event that contradicts the events of the others. They're not in the same continuity because they can't all have happened in the timeline of these characters. Comic book continuity is hard enough to keep track without crossovers with other universes, and it's hardly some sort of fanboy bias if people choose ignore events from certain ambiguously-stated crossovers.

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

That's interesting, but now we have two contradictory continuities. I'd say that since JLA/Avengers came out later that it takes precedence, but I wouldn't be sure. Besides, the point I was trying to make is still stands, that there's no way both of them are in continuity.

Superman's been weakened a lot from his pre-Crisis power levels, but considering how ridiculously powerful he was pre-Crisis that's not saying a lot. You say that he is one of the strongest heroes in both the DC and Marvel worlds, but the difference in power between the Marvel and DC universes has been getting wider and wider apart for a long time now; saying that you're one of the strongest heroes in the DCU is very different from saying that you're one of the strongest in the Marvel U. Superman's power was relatively tame throughout the 90s, but since then he's gotten much closer to his Pre-Crisis feats than he was just after the Man of Steel revamp.

It doesn't matter if he had help both times, anyone who is able to affect even a smallest fraction of a moon's orbit, much less a planet's, is so far out of of Venom's power range that it isn't even funny. There's just no way you can make an argument for Venom being a threat against someone who can do this.

No joke, pre-crisis supes was ridiculously strong. Forgte Hulk 150,000,000,000 tons. Superman was moving planets on a regular basis.

 

[Harlekin]

So show me where anyone from DC or Marvel has said that those comics 'aren't cannon'. Not 'they don't mention it, so it's not cannon', I want to see them EXPLICITLY state, beyond all doubt, that it's not cannon (in those words).

I like how you just forgot the rest of my post, which actually explains to you why some things aren't canon, but I'll play along. As I and BrianWilly have pointed out, DC and Marvel did crossovers before they did Marvel vs DC. This would mean the following:

-Superman is a herald of Galactus
-Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson fought alongside Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes during the second World War
--Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne Jr. find the frozen body of Steve Rogers during the 60's.
-The Punisher has fought both Batmen and has shown up in Gotham

Everytime a DC or Marvel rewrites something that has come before, that past is no longer in contuinity. Examples (from both Marvel and DC):
-Bucky died
-Fury's mom is Wonder Woman
-Jason Todd died
-The Steve Rogers Captain America was around after the second World War
-Jean Grey=Phoenix=clone=Jean Grey=Phoenix

Heck, I'll even repost those bits you seemed to miss:

Of course. Keyword being: happened. We do not decide canon. The executives of DC and Marvel do. Sure, the comic will still exist, and you can pretend it's still canon, but that doesn't mean it IS.

We've gotten a dozen stories where the killer of Batman's parents is Joe Chill and a dozen where he isn't. Currently, the Joe Chill story applies again, meaning that the issues pertaining the origin that state that the killer was never caught are 'obsolete'. That's not what happened, it's what could've happened. It becomes an Elseworlds basically, and we don't treat those in canon either.

To expand on this:
-Superman is a communist
-Superman is Amish
-Batman is a Green Lantern

Really, do I need to go on? DC vs Marvel is Elseworlds/What If? aka not-canon (and that's spelled with one n by the way).

 

[UK_Stu]

You're spot on Harlekin. I'm not even sure somepeople, Horrorfan comes to mind, actually understand what continuity is.

Essentially it doesn't matter what has been printed about a character(s), or whats happened to them in the past, their continuity is only what has happened to them in the past in their universe, which hasn't been re-written or officially wiped out. Look at Wolverine's past/origin for a start.

Nobody has to make an official sataement to to say "this isn't canon" or "this is canon" - its obvious

 

[i'm Spider-Man]

Sentry(void) can own everybody. Why? He broke every bone in hulks body. Well almost every bone.

.. he did?

 

[Ahura Mazda]

.. he did?

Supposedly...but I think it is bad writing.

 

[Varient]

lol.

Okay,....

Currently by Canon,... Sentry beats Thor And Superman,...( By feats they havenot shown an upper limit to his powers or what he can do,...)

Sentry - depending on how he feels on a given day can be beat or slowed down by a street-level creature up to a herald of Galactus.

On a good day he beats ANYTHING with simplistic ease.

Go figure.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

lol.

Okay,....

Currently by Canon,... Sentry beats Thor And Superman,...( By feats they havenot shown an upper limit to his powers or what he can do,...)

Sentry - depending on how he feels on a given day can be beat or slowed down by a street-level creature up to a herald of Galactus.

On a good day he beats ANYTHING with simplistic ease.

Go figure.

One thing I don't quite understand is how he

Spoiler

was defeated by the collective

when supposedly he can stand up to Galactus.

 

[Varient]

I swear to god, the way people just pull this crap out of they're assess astounds me. That's why I love coming here.

LOL

How do u really feel.

 

[Horrorfan]

Then so if they never happened, what was the point of making them?

I am pretty sure DC vs Marvel at least is in canon. Im not sure about the earlier ones, but as well as the afterformentioned character who appeared in a regular marvel/dc title, it's pretty clear that characters were plucked from the 'ordinary' 'verse they live in to fight. No alternate reality there. So I don't care how many 'OH NOES! WOLVERINE BEAT LOBO!!!1!! TAHT'S TEH GHEY' I hear, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that it happend. I mean you can't pick and choose what to believe and what to ignore. DC vs Marvel (at least) does not in any way, shape or form distort continuity, since all characters are plucked from their own universe to fight, and don't live in the same universe or whatever. It's kinda like the exiles meets gladiator.

If none of it's cannon, whats the point of debating if Venom would beat Superman or not? You render the argument moot, since if a meeting did happen again, you would say it doesn't count (but I have a funny feeling had your favourites won, you would be singing a different tune...). So arguing about it is totally pointless if you are gonna disregard what evidence you DO have and base it on pointless fanboy speculation.

Comic logic goes like this: it doesn't matter how powerful the superhero is; it's about what the writer feels is best for the scene. How crappy would it have been had supes disintergrated him in page 2? You would have a popular dead character, and you would have paid a few bucks for a two page comic. You have to remember: COMICS AREN'T REAL. Period.

I'm sorry, but what happened and is in print is more justifiable than some fanboy's 'reasons' why supes would pwn venom or whatever. I go by what happened in the comics. When it comes to the comics, what's in print is what is.


Even if you wish to ignore the comics are canon, well you have the only representation of what would happen, outside of your own head, so it's hard to argue against it. Even if it's not 'in continuity', you have the events that WOULD happen had the two heros meet.

 

[bkhedr]

Even if it's not 'in continuity', you have the events that WOULD happen had the two heros meet.

The reason its out of conituity (the comic book companies put it out of contiunity themselves) is because its out of character for the characters and its not what WOULD happen

Its what one writer was TOLD to MAKE HAPPEN in one measly OUT OF CONTINUITY story which is out of continuity because the editors know its hogwash and realize that its just a showcase for the characters that doesnt need to make sense.

Case in point venom vs Superman

Its out of continuity because its baloney. Its just part of some ill conceived marketing ploy, good for MARVEL that the venom fanboys bought it but that doesnt mean the rest of us has to suffer. so..its out of continuity and isnt canon

end of story

 

[gildea]

One thing I don't quite understand is how he

Spoiler

was defeated by the collective

when supposedly he can stand up to Galactus.

He was pushed away.

Not really a defeat.