Why Thor or Superman cannot beat Sentry.

[bkhedr]

Yeah its not necessarily over

still, Sentry's powers are up and down like he was superman and crisis was a weakly event

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Well he was pushed away into a vortex and then the collective is seen going back to earth with him nowhere in sight. Did not quite understand it plus you could see a look of surprise on his face when it happenned.

 

[Horrorfan]

The reason its out of conituity (the comic book companies put it out of contiunity themselves) is because its out of character for the characters and its not what WOULD happen

Its what one writer was TOLD to MAKE HAPPEN in one measly OUT OF CONTINUITY story which is out of continuity because the editors know its hogwash and realize that its just a showcase for the characters that doesnt need to make sense.

Case in point venom vs Superman

Its out of continuity because its baloney. Its just part of some ill conceived marketing ploy, good for MARVEL that the venom fanboys bought it but that doesnt mean the rest of us has to suffer. so..its out of continuity and isnt canon

end of story

Venom beat Superman.

End of story.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

And Wolverine beat Lobo

 

[Horrorfan]

And Wolverine beat Lobo

Wolverine handed that lame ass rip -off his head

 

[Harlekin]

Then so if they never happened, what was the point of making them?

Money. That's not a very hard question, Horrorfan.

I am pretty sure DC vs Marvel at least is in canon. Im not sure about the earlier ones, but as well as the afterformentioned character who appeared in a regular marvel/dc title, it's pretty clear that characters were plucked from the 'ordinary' 'verse they live in to fight. No alternate reality there. So I don't care how many 'OH NOES! WOLVERINE BEAT LOBO!!!1!! TAHT'S TEH GHEY' I hear, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that it happend.

Then why doesn't Robin remember his love for Jubilee? What makes this crossover more probable than those before? Because they were plucked from their respective universes? That would make Superman vs Silver Surfer canon too, even though it isn't.

I mean you can't pick and choose what to believe and what to ignore.

I don't. That's the whole point. We adhere to Marvel and DC here.

DC vs Marvel (at least) does not in any way, shape or form distort continuity, since all characters are plucked from their own universe to fight, and don't live in the same universe or whatever. It's kinda like the exiles meets gladiator.

Robin had a romance with Jubilee, that distorts contuinity.

If none of it's cannon, whats the point of debating if Venom would beat Superman or not?

What's the point of debating if Ambush Bug would beat Black Cat? The hero-vs-hero and crossover aspects of comic universes are an aspect of the fan community. DC and Marvel cash in on that.

You render the argument moot, since if a meeting did happen again, you would say it doesn't count (but I have a funny feeling had your favourites won, you would be singing a different tune...). So arguing about it is totally pointless if you are gonna disregard what evidence you DO have and base it on pointless fanboy speculation.

Yet, time and time again these things also happen outside of crossovers. For all intents and purposes, Spider-Man beating Firelord should have been nigh impossible. It happened nonetheless, and people are forced to accept that. It's not about playing favourites at all. It's about discerning canon from non-canon.

Comic logic goes like this: it doesn't matter how powerful the superhero is; it's about what the writer feels is best for the scene. How crappy would it have been had supes disintergrated him in page 2? You would have a popular dead character, and you would have paid a few bucks for a two page comic. You have to remember: COMICS AREN'T REAL. Period.

Again, this has no bearing the in the canon or non-canon department. Heck, an alternative to Superman not beating Venom? Not doing the crossover at all. Things are always done to serve the story, that's inherent to any story-telling medium, doesn't mean they always make sense (or are in-canon).

I'm sorry, but what happened and is in print is more justifiable than some fanboy's 'reasons' why supes would pwn venom or whatever. I go by what happened in the comics. When it comes to the comics, what's in print is what is.

And, yet, dozens of times that doesn't hold up. Not every comic fits in the contuinity and are therefore discarded. Heck, just look at the Phoenix mess in the X-Universe, or look at the killer-of-Batman's-parents mess over at DC. Not everything works.

Even if you wish to ignore the comics are canon, well you have the only representation of what would happen, outside of your own head, so it's hard to argue against it. Even if it's not 'in continuity', you have the events that WOULD happen had the two heros meet.

No, what I have is the event that COULD happen if the two heroes meet.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Hmmm....roll eyes meaning I thought it was ridiculous. By your logic if someone writes something down then it is necessarily the truth.

You have independant information available to you and your own intelligence, you are given statistics for the characters. You have a general idea of powers and therefore can have your own logic about them. If a writer writes something it may not be what you have to take for 'truth' (this is the comics where nothing is so forgive my use of the word) and could be stupid even if justifiable fo other reasons.

Anyways, in the crossovers you had Superman have a hard time with Venom but defeat Thor and the Hulk. Not very logical. Plus given Superman supposedly is just short of the speed of light, how could any hit him if they can not move almost or as fast as him.

 

[UK_Stu]

Wolverine handed that lame ass rip -off his head

Yuck, lucky that wasn't in continuity...

 

[bkhedr]

Venom beat Superman.

End of story.

never happened

they've never met

and they live in different universes

and if they did meet, Supes would give Venom a stern red eyed stare and both the symbiote and Eddie would end up looking like a piece of burnt toast

That's what would happen

 

[Doombringer]

Jesus, i really cant believe some of you are even considering that Venom can beat, let alone even land a hit on Superman. SUPERMAN!? I think some of you need to step back, walk away from the computer for awhile and come back and just think about what your saying. Thats just terrible horrific writing nothing more, nothing less. And its definitely not cannon.

Now Sentry vs Thor or Superman... hmm now thats more like it. Im in the notion that Thor really can beat Superman, despite what was done in the JLA/AVENGERS crossover. I have always thought so. Now im not saying Thor would beat Superman 10/10, but a good half of that if not more.. maybe 6/10 or 7/10. All do to Thor's channeling and controlling magic through Mjolinir. He's a norse god, and for that fact alone he should be able to defeat him IMO since i have always been under the assumption that all deities and 'gods' deal with supernatural or magical means (one of Supes weaknesses). Besides that fact another deciding factor should be that Thor is a better fighter than Supes is. The only real thing Supes has over Thor is reactive speed. Everything else, Thor should be able to withstand or take for awhile, but one Godblast should take Supes out for the count, if thats Thor's godly essence being projected. Now again im not not saying Supes cant defeat Thor just as many times as i think Thor can beat Supes. One thing that made me want to crap on the comic was that they had Supes being able to lift Thors hammer in the crossover... thats just ridiculous.

Now Sentry... is tough. They have his powers up and down so many times that i dont even know. But by judging from his feats that ive so far seen, such as him disarming multiple nukes in the air heading in different directions around the earth then taking a blast from the last one he was disarming, only to arrive a few minutes later and say somethin like "fun wasnt it?" shows that he has the speed and durability to definitly hang with Supes. To bring Galactus to a stand still by himself alone, which shows he has more than enough power to defeat Supes as well. Not to mention he whole power system is solar based, theres no telling what kind of energy manipulation he can perform (this goes for Silver Surfer vs Supes too) on Supes and his solar derived powers. But with Sentry's power dependent on his emotional state... its never a sure thing.

I guess the deciding factor whould have to be a Sentry vs Thor fight which will inevitably come soon..

 

[bkhedr]

nice post Doombringer

I for one am anxiously awaiting that inevitable Thor vs Sentry battle

here's hoping it will be good

 

[Whirlysplat]

Not worth arguing with Horrorfan anymore guys. He is one of those types that can't accept he is wrong.

Moving on.

In regards to JLA/Avenger, I do remember reading an interview where it was said that it was canonical. If I'm not mistaken the question went something like: "And will THIS be the crossover that's finally in continuity?" The answer was yes. I think it was in Newsarama and it had a couple of the creators (I think it was George Perez and someone else). It caught my attention because they said that it WOULD impact both universes and I was extremely skeptical because that's what everyone says. Up 'til now only DC has had the cojones to keep their word.

The events are also referenced in an Avengers handbook. The "Thorbuster" punch is in Supermans arsenal.

- Whirly

 

[Horrorfan]

never happened

they've never met

and they live in different universes

and if they did meet, Supes would give Venom a stern red eyed stare and both the symbiote and Eddie would end up looking like a piece of burnt toast

That's what would happen

Actually it did happen. Proof's on the other page. You're just bitter. If you can't except the proof in front of your eyes, well...that's not really my problem. It's kinda like saying in a court you didn't shoot someone when they have pictures and videos of you shooting someone.

The comics is all there is. No amount of fanboy whinging can change that.


Wolverine PWNED Lobo too

 

[bkhedr]

I give up

If you think Venom can beat supes, and you think that fight is in continuity, despite just about EVERYONE telling you otherwise, then there's nothing that can be done to help you.

I'm done with this thread, you guys can go back to your symbiote love fest and Marvel vs DC is canon fairy tale now

I will say this though, if the Marvel forum thinks you guys are a joke for believing Venom can beat Supes, just imagine what would have happened if this was in the DC forum

food for thought

 

[Harlekin]

Actually it did happen. Proof's on the other page. You're just bitter. If you can't except the proof in front of your eyes, well...that's not really my problem. It's kinda like saying in a court you didn't shoot someone when they have pictures and videos of you shooting someone.

Tell that to Joe Chill. Did murder Bruce's parents, didn't murder Bruce's parents, did but wasn't caught, did but was caught. Most ****ed with comic character ever.

 

[Horrorfan]

Listen, like I said before... I don't know why you guys don't get that implausable things happen all the time in comics. No way should Punisher be able to regularly fight Wolverine, Daredevil and co....but he does. No way should Batman beat 65% of the people he does.....yet he manages to. It's the nature of the biz. So Venom took supes in one fight, so what? I'm betting Superman ended up winning in the end.

My point being is that, as of now, those comics are the only time we have seen an encounter between those two, or any heroes. I accept it because, simply, there is no other proof out there (opinion is not proof).
Even if you don't consider any of it canon, which is fair enough, you have no real alternative aside from your opinions, theories and whatnot. The fights might not always be totally logical , but if you want total logic, quit reading comics.

Also I could care less about a DC forum. That pic of them pulling a planet, as another user put it, 'is the reason I don't read dc'. Marvel has some super powered charactes (like uber powerful), but almost all DC's characters are like that (hell even Batman is more or less uber powerful and neigh on invincible).

 

[Harlekin]

Listen, like I said before... I don't know why you guys don't get that implausable things happen all the time in comics. No way should Punisher be able to regularly fight Wolverine, Daredevil and co....but he does. No way should Batman beat 65% of the people he does.....yet he manages to. It's the nature of the biz. So Venom took supes in one fight, so what? I'm betting Superman ended up winning in the end.

It's really not the nature of the fight, but using that fight to prove a point.

My point being is that, as of now, those comics are the only time we have seen an encounter between those two, or any heroes. I accept it because, simply, there is no other proof out there (opinion is not proof).
Even if you don't consider any of it canon, which is fair enough, you have no real alternative aside from your opinions, theories and whatnot. The fights might not always be totally logical , but if you want total logic, quit reading comics.

This is true. Nonetheless, these fights are not 'proof', because of the whole non-canon thing.

 

[Horrorfan]

It's really not the nature of the fight, but using that fight to prove a point.


This is true. Nonetheless, these fights are not 'proof', because of the whole non-canon thing.

Well they are the only fights you have.....which is still worth a lot more than speculation and theory.

My point is, even a 'non canon' fight is still more 'canon' than an opinionated guy on a message board. I agree, supes SHOULD be able to demolish venom, but its just not the way it went down this time.

It's like sentry...his powers flunctuate because sometimes it just serves the story for him to be more/less powerful in that scene. As with all superheroes. I mean if comics were 'real', wolverine would have decapitated sabretooth, crapped down his throat and burned the body to ashes in their first fight. But you just gotta let the impausabilitys slide.

I don't doubt superman COULD demolish Venom, but this time he didn't.

I can see why you don't accept it, and I don't blame you if Marvel and DC don't acknowledge it...but at the same time, that's currently the only place you can find any sort of fight between the two is in that particular magazine. If you showed it to a guy with only a vague interest in comics, they wouldn't care about cannon/non cannon, they would just accept it for how it is. We just loose perspective sometimes and forget that it's just a comic, it's not a huge deal.

 

[newmexneon]

DC Vs Marvel is the WORST comic story ever written. The mere thought of people taking that seriously makes baby jesus cry.

 

[Tropico]

Inter-company crossovers, fairly rare creatures now, used to be much more plentiful, but nearly without exception, they occurred “somewhere else,” in a dimension where both the Teen Titans and X-Men operate, for example, following up on plot threads from JLA/Avengers in JLA is a rarity – an event in itself in that it continues in one of DC’s flagship titles."

From this interview.

 

[Horrorfan]

DC Vs Marvel is the WORST comic story ever written. The mere thought of people taking that seriously makes baby jesus cry.

Lobo fan eh?

 

[Harlekin]

Well they are the only fights you have.....which is still worth a lot more than speculation and theory.

My point is, even a 'non canon' fight is still more 'canon' than an opinionated guy on a message board. I agree, supes SHOULD be able to demolish venom, but its just not the way it went down this time.

Myself (and most of the fan community) give non-canon about as much worth as the speculation.

It's like sentry...his powers flunctuate because sometimes it just serves the story for him to be more/less powerful in that scene. As with all superheroes. I mean if comics were 'real', wolverine would have decapitated sabretooth, crapped down his throat and burned the body to ashes in their first fight. But you just gotta let the impausabilitys slide.

Actually, it would've been the other way around. Sabretooth dominated their first fight.

I can see why you don't accept it, and I don't blame you if Marvel and DC don't acknowledge it...but at the same time, that's currently the only place you can find any sort of fight between the two is in that particular magazine. If you showed it to a guy with only a vague interest in comics, they wouldn't care about cannon/non cannon, they would just accept it for how it is. We just loose perspective sometimes and forget that it's just a comic, it's not a huge deal.

But they are huge deals in these types of debates.

 

[BrianWilly]

My point being is that, as of now, those comics are the only time we have seen an encounter between those two, or any heroes. I accept it because, simply, there is no other proof out there (opinion is not proof).
Even if you don't consider any of it canon, which is fair enough, you have no real alternative aside from your opinions, theories and whatnot. The fights might not always be totally logical , but if you want total logic, quit reading comics.

Oh, geez...

For the sake of argument let's assume that the scene in question is canonical; Superman's a big wuss that gets kicked around by Venom and this actually happened, whatever. But before and after that scene happened, Superman has been shown shattering mountains, flying through stars, moving at many times the speed of sound, and pushing planets around. We know that is what Superman can actually do, so obviously that scene with Venom was a showing of him at his very, very worst. You know Superman is ordinarily stronger than Venom. Everyone who's seen any comic with those two knows this. So even if that scene actually happened within the context of both universes' continuity, it can't be anything but a poor example of the two characters' power levels. It can't be used as much evidence for anything, much less the Sentry's power levels.

Does that look familiar, Horrorfan? It's because I copied and pasted my exact words from a page ago when this exact complaint was already answered. You want to take that Venom fight seriously? Fine. No one else does for very obvious reasons that have been explained to you over and over again. But obviously you need to hear it one more time because it didn't go through to your head the first several times: For that fight to be taken seriously, you'd have to ignore every single other instance of Superman showing that he is stronger than Venom ever could be. And there have been many, many instances of this. That is the definition of continuity, that prior and future events have to be taken into consideration. When characters don't behave logically in accordance to those past and future events, they are either victims of bad writing, mischaracterization, flawed narrative, or all of the above.

You are not taking those prior and future events into consideration. You continuously accuse people of being biased about whether something is canon or not, and yet here you are doing the EXACT. SAME. THING. It's not that you accept Venom beating Superman because there's no other proof out there; the other proof has been shoved into your face repeatedly. No, you're simply accepting it because you want to. Your attitude concerning the Marvel vs DC crossover and your snippant demeanor towards the fans makes this plain for all to see. ("Wolverine PWNED Lobo too ")

You keep saying "comic books don't make sense so stop expecting them to make sense," which is utter nonsense. If there were no sense in comic books, we'd never be able to have any discussions on anything about them. We couldn't be able to say, "Spider-Man is fast" if at any moment it would be completely logical for him to be slow as hell out of the blue. This is a fictional universe with its own fictional rules and its own line of logic, and if you can't follow that line of logic...well, that's just your own dang problem, isn't it, 'cause the rest of us are doing just fine.

This is the logic: Superman can move planets. Venom can't. Therefore Superman is stronger than Venom.

End of story.

 

[Varient]

(smirk)
U Have More Patience than I.

 

[Kotagg]

CANON. One "N", people. One.