Civil War Winter is Coming - The Bucky Barnes Thread

[TheVision]

We dont know how many times Bucky stepped in to help Steve when he was getting beat up or picked on growing up. Now add to it that Bucky is Steves last link to his old life. He loves the guy like a brother. Its not that difficult to understand why he'd protect him.

 

[Rote]

Steve sprang into action in his new body the second Erskine was shot which is what made him front page news and worthy to be the headlining monkey in a War Bonds tour. Rescuing Bucky (and over 400 men - The Smithsonian lies!) was the second catalyst and that seemed to happened almost as soon as he landed in Italy and in the midst of War. This is the man who jumped on a grenade during training. His first instinct is to protect and save, he doesn't need it to be personal.

To be fair, that's what they said in TFA audio commentary:

“This scene was added in [post-production] just to have him change his attitude and be determined. That was always the thing we were trying to balance. He gets activated by hearing about Bucky, that’s the thing that really makes him realize that it’s time to take a stand and contribute in a way that’s more than just doing the show. Bucky has got to be the only reason that he would go AWOL for. It becomes personal.”

 

[TalismanRing]

To be fair, that's what they said in TFA audio commentary:

Yeah, they might be selling but I'm not buying. They didn't need to add in an explanation in post production since it's already explained by his character and previous actions. There's no need for a specific personal reason to go AWOL because it's not like Steve followed the rules before that - Mr. Five Different Army Applications with Illegal False Statements & Information. There is no way was Steve going to sit the entire war out like a nice performing monkey until it became personal. He wasn't doing that when he was a walking 4-F so why would he when he was the peak of human perfection?

 

[JtheDreamer]

Yeah, they might be selling. They didn't need to add in an explanation in post production since it's already explained by his character and previous actions. I'm not buying the need because it's not like Steve followed the rules before that - Mr. Five Different Army Applications with Illegal False Statements & Information. There is no way was Steve going to sit the entire war out like a nice performing monkey until it became personal. He wasn't doing that when he was a walking 4-F so why would he when he was the peak of human perfection?

I think you're mis-remembering the movie. He was dejected from being relegated to a stage act and showing his unhappiness in his scrap book drawings of monkeys in US colors. The US government was insistent upon protecting him since he was the only one of his kind - he followed those orders though, no matter how unhappy it was making him.

It wasn't until he heard of Bucky's unit getting captured that he decided to disobey direct orders.

 

[TalismanRing]

Steve is not the kind of man to stay dejected. He always gets up just as he always fights to protect - that's his nature, that's why he's Captain America. Not the suit, or the shield, or the serum or Bucky. He had just come to Europe from the U.S. - it wasn't as if he had multiple opportunities before hand to save people and just ignored them because they weren't Bucky. And Peggy gives him that pep talk before the knowledge of Bucky's capture.

He doesn't need it to be personal. It's just gilding the lily and exists to be audience hand holding storytelling, showing again what has already been shown because maybe they didn't think the audience wouldn't get it as it stood or the audience needed it to be more personal. Which is why that transitional scene was added in post production and not originally deemed necessary, because it really isn't for Steve to take action.

 

[JtheDreamer]

Steve is not the kind of man to stay dejected. He always gets up just as he always fights to protect - that's his nature, that's why he's Captain America. Not the suit, or the shield, or the serum or Bucky. He had just come to Europe from the U.S. - it wasn't as if he had multiple opportunities before hand to save people and just ignored them because they weren't Bucky. And Peggy gives him that pep talk before the knowledge of Bucky's capture.

He doesn't need it to be personal. It's just gilding the lily and exists to be audience hand holding storytelling, showing again what has already been shown because maybe they didn't think the audience wouldn't get it as it stood or the audience needed it to be more personal. Which is why that transitional scene was added in post production and not originally deemed necessary, because it really isn't for Steve to take action.

But he DID need it to be personal. That's why that sequence was added and we saw him doodling US monkeys in a scrap book. He had been on tour for a while doing all kinds of propaganda, but never once broke rank. It was pretty obvious his dream of serving his country wasn't going as planned.

Then he gets the pep talk to reinvigorate his sensibilities and the perfect reason to disobey direct orders from the US government reveals itself in the form of Bucky's capture.

 

[TalismanRing]

They just added one small sequence, the other stuff with the doodling and Peggy's pep talk was I think already there to show his dissatisfaction (as if we already didn't know it and we did) and had nothing to do with Bucky since they didn't even know about that then. They made the entire film without needing the small "it's personal" scene so they didn't think it was at all necessary for his motivation when making the movie. It gives it a more personal or emotional punch so it's added but it's not necessary to get from A to B.

Is saving Bucky important to Steve, of course it is, he loves Bucky - he's family. But is it something he needed in order to become Captain America - of course it wasn't. It was a narrative signpost/short cut but Steve doesn't NEED Bucky to become Captain America. He doesn't need it to be personal to break the rules, we know this from the enlistment scene. He doesn't need it to be personal in order to risk his life or to want to save others, we see this from the grenade scene.

This is part of what makes Steve Rogers special - his willingness to stand up, to get back up when knocked down and to act on his moral compass and conscience when it's the hardest thing to do and when others say it's wrong or it's breaking the rules. We see this in TFA and we see it in TWS and my from what we know we'll see it in Civil War. This is what makes Steve Rogers a compelling interesting unique character.

He doesn't need a kick in the pants emotional trauma to get his act together, he doesn't need to save people because of guilt or a need for redemption, he doesn't do it just because it's personal. He does it because he thinks it's the right thing to do and it needs to be done and he'll do it even if it costs him everything he has. It's a difficult road and at times it requires a lot of self abnegation and sacrifice - which is why being "a good man" is not boring or easy it's bloody difficult and inspiring.

In Civil War though we might see what happens when Steve possibly makes the wrong choice, maybe partially from selfish motives, thinking it's the right choice and how he comes to terms with maybe being wrong. That's a very compelling arc and that should be what the film is about, and hopefully what it is about.

 

[ernesth100]

He probably wouldve sprung into action eventially if Bucky wasnt captured or been recruited so to him being a literal Super Soldier. They'd have to be syupid not to put him in battle.

 

[Anita18]

Steve is not the kind of man to stay dejected. He always gets up just as he always fights to protect - that's his nature, that's why he's Captain America. Not the suit, or the shield, or the serum or Bucky. He had just come to Europe from the U.S. - it wasn't as if he had multiple opportunities before hand to save people and just ignored them because they weren't Bucky. And Peggy gives him that pep talk before the knowledge of Bucky's capture.

This is part of what makes Steve Rogers special - his willingness to stand up, to get back up when knocked down and to act on his moral compass and conscience when it's the hardest thing to do and when others say it's wrong or it's breaking the rules. We see this in TFA and we see it in TWS and my from what we know we'll see it in Civil War. This is what makes Steve Rogers a compelling interesting unique character.

He doesn't need a kick in the pants emotional trauma to get his act together, he doesn't need to save people because of guilt or a need for redemption, he doesn't do it just because it's personal. He does it because he thinks it's the right thing to do and it needs to be done and he'll do it even if it costs him everything he has. It's a difficult road and at times it requires a lot of self abnegation and sacrifice - which is why being "a good man" is not boring or easy it's bloody difficult and inspiring.

In Civil War though we might see what happens when Steve possibly makes the wrong choice, maybe partially from selfish motives, thinking it's the right choice and how he comes to terms with maybe being wrong. That's a very compelling arc and that should be what the film is about, and hopefully what it is about.

Steve doesn't stay mopey and dejected because he'll always find a way to jump into a fight. But you didn't think something was off with him when he told Sam he didn't know what made him happy? That he doesn't have any social life at all, no hobbies, no real friends besides Nat and Sam, and he'd just met Sam. Those are signs of depression.

Maybe Steve should be selfish for once in his life, and do something that makes him happy, even if it's not the best immediate idea for the rest of society. It's not like he's going to make a total exception for Bucky - he's shown that he believes in redemption before. It's mostly that it being Bucky will add more drama to the story, and make him feel like a real person instead of just a cookie cutter "just always does what's right" archetype.

 

[JtheDreamer]

He probably wouldve sprung into action eventially if Bucky wasnt captured or been recruited so to him being a literal Super Soldier. They'd have to be syupid not to put him in battle.

Stupid or not, that's exactly what they were doing - protecting their investment until they could duplicate the technology. Remember the formula died with Erskine. It was blatantly spelled out for viewers.

Obviously a film about a dejected Steve Rogers unable to go fight in battle wouldn't sell very well. In order to give him a more significant motive, the film execs added in the Bucky situation.

 

[TalismanRing]

Those are also signs of displacement. His whole world died. Except the woman he loved who lived her life with someone else and is now 95. He came out of one war and woke up in another and has never had the chance to go home or find a life outside of war or fighting. He has no home to go to and the plans he made before he went under the ice aren't possible now.

Heck, before he became a super soldier he probably had good reason to believe he'd die young because of his health even if he didn't go to war and aside from Bucky it looks like had no close friends until Project Rebirth and then The Commandos. Steve grew up sickly, poor and then orphaned during the Great Depression. He's a fighter and a survivor.

Yes, Bucky is important to him and in this instance he's going to do something a bit selfish. I never argued against that. I only argued that Bucky isn't what makes Steve Captain America. Steve's story and arc over three films does not revolve around Bucky and no Bucky doesn't have a more compelling arc and isn't a more compelling or interesting character than Steve Rogers.

 

[TalismanRing]

Stupid or not, that's exactly what they were doing - protecting their investment until they could duplicate the technology. Remember the formula died with Erskine. It was blatantly spelled out for viewers.

Obviously a film about a dejected Steve Rogers unable to go fight in battle wouldn't sell very well. In order to give him a more significant motive, the film execs added in the Bucky situation.

What good is having possible future super soldiers if you lose the war not using the one you have? Sooner or later they would have sprung him if only from desperation. But Steve wouldn't have waited that long, he'd have taken action well before then with or without Bucky.

 

[JtheDreamer]

Yes, Bucky is important to him and this instance he's gong to do something a bit selfish. I never argued against that. I only argued that Bucky isn't what makes Steve Captain America. Steve's story and arc over three films does not revolve around Bucky and no Bucky doesn't have a more compelling arc and isn't a more compelling or interesting character than Steve Rogers.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Regardless we're about to watch a third film now with Bucky tied into Cap's narrrative. You're kind of marginalizing his overall significance to Cap's lore in the MCU.

What good is having possible future super soldiers if you lose the war not using the one you have? Sooner or later they would have sprung him if only from desperation. But Steve wouldn't have waited that long, he'd have taken action well before then with or without Bucky.

That's not the movie we were shown though. That's the movie you're playing in your head.

 

[TalismanRing]

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Regardless we're about to watch a third film now with Bucky tied into Cap's narrrative. You're kind of marginalizing his overall significance to Cap's lore in the MCU.

I think you're inflating it. Steve's already starred in 4 movies and Bucky's had about 30 lines of dialogue in 2, some of which came in a flashback to remind the audience he was important to Steve otherwise they'd fear people would would forget. Yes, he's important, and that will significantly play into this film but he's not the center or core of Steve's story line or personal journey in the MCU. He's just part of it.

That's not the movie we were shown though. That's the movie you're playing in your head.

No, it's a logical inference based on Steve's character which the movie showed up until that point. The incident with Bucky is a timely catalyst (and the filmmakers used it because it has an emotional hook and puts the character back in play in one set piece) but if it wasn't rescuing Bucky it would have been rescuing someone else otherwise Steve Rogers wouldn't be Steve Rogers.

 

[JtheDreamer]

I think you're inflating it. Steve's already starred in 4 movies and Bucky's had about 30 lines of dialogue in 2, some of which came in a flashback to remind the audience he was important to Steve otherwise they'd fear people would would forget. Yes, he's important, and that will significantly play into this film but he's not the center or core of Steve's story line or personal journey in the MCU. He's just part of it.

A significant part of it - no matter what you say. The individual films' struggles/arcs don't play into the Avengers movies, so not sure why you're even counting them. Whedon himself talked about it.

No, it's a logical inference based on Steve's character which the movie showed up until that point. The incident with Bucky is a timely catalyst (and the filmmakers used it because it has an emotional hook and puts the character back in play in one set piece) but if it wasn't rescuing Bucky it would have been rescuing someone else otherwise Steve Rogers wouldn't be Steve Rogers.

It's not a logical inference, otherwise we would have never seen Steve Rogers sitting on his ass drawing monkeys being depressed about not participating in war. He wouldn't have spent all that time strictly doing USO tours and war propaganda. The movie did it's job showing Steve wasn't ready to cross that line unless it became more personal.

 

[Sebastos]

Cool nod to his first appearance has the Winter Soldier:

 

[TalismanRing]

A significant part of it - no matter what you say. The individual films' struggles/arcs don't play into the Avengers movies, so not sure why you're even counting them. Whedon himself talked about it.

Whedon has spoken about making the Avengers movies so that they can be viewed as stand alone which is not the same as saying they don't develop from and into characterization in the solo films. I think it was obvious in Avengers that Steve was struggling with being de-iced just two weeks earlier. And in AOU we see him one year on from TWS having made more friends and having a new home while still having pain about his lost past (see dream with Peggy). That he isn't fruitlessly chasing Bucky 24/7 (or dreaming about him instead of Peggy) instead of Avenging does not mean his arc or struggles were ignored. Of course what happens in Avengers movies is part of Steve's life and characterization otherwise there wouldn't be a Civil War because none of those other people would matter.

It's not a logical inference, otherwise we would have never seen Steve Rogers sitting on his ass drawing monkeys being depressed about not participating in war. He wouldn't have spent all that time strictly doing USO tours and war propaganda. The movie did it's job showing Steve wasn't ready to cross that line unless it became more personal.

Steve was in the United States, kind of hard to jump into the war from there. He was in Italy for like one day when he had his discussion with Peggy and that was before Bucky was even mentioned. He was ready. Rescuing Bucky was a catalyst in Steve's journey but he wasn't THE reason Steve became Captain America. They took the time and effort to show us the heart and will of pre-serum Steve for a reason. They showed Steve throwing himself on a grenade for the same reason. They showed us that no it did not have to be personal for Steve Rogers to instinctively want to save people and sacrifice himself. None of that had to do with Bucky. That what was inside him is what made him Captain America (which is also why the passing of the mantle is such crap storytelling).

 

[Bren]

Doubt either of you will like this, but based on perspective and what you took out of the films, I can agree with both your opinions

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

More Bucky pics! More Bucky news! You think they will let him keep the cool black armor even though it's from Hydra!?

 

[Silvermoon]

If this were made into a t-shirt, I would so buy this in a heartbeat!

 

[yllum]

If this were made into a t-shirt, I would so buy this in a heartbeat!

Count me in !

 

[Silvermoon]

Sebastian's making some rounds for promotion of The Bronze, he did this interview with MoviePilot and some of the questions are Marvel/Civil War related:

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3woc1a_12125305-242354299433603-1790002470-n_shortfilms

(note: I haven't watched the full video yet, don't know if there's uncensored language or anything)

 

[The Big G]

In the wake of today's trailer...does anyone else think the finale is located at the Soviet Hydra base that originally held him back in the day?

Also for some reason Im thinking clone buckys....

 

[yllum]

I absolutely hate it when so many parties wanna capture bucky.

imo the winter soldier is a very sympathetic character. he has been tested on, experimented on..basically like a product.

he is not treated like a human being. And now when he is finally free from hydra control, he becomes this crazy dude which is mentally unsound. only Steve understand what he has gone through.

bucky didn't ask for all he has gone through. I just feel really sad for him

 

[Silvermoon]

So according to Sebastian, here's what's in that backpack of Bucky's (spoiler tagging just in case)

Spoiler

[Source]

coleisadreamer: Hey Sebastian! *wave* inquiring minds want to know.. What does Bucky have in his backpack in civil war? I've been very curious since I've seen the trailer. Which by the way is **** awesome! Looking forward to seeing civil war. You are awesome! Lots of love and hugs, -Cole

imsebastianstan: Dead Cole, in his backpack there are a dozen notebooks that compose the scattered memories dating back to as far as he can remember which somewhat piece together a scattered life. In a similar way to Alzheimer's, he's written things down, for fear of losing his memory again. He was prepared, were something to happen, to walk away with nothing but that backpack, which is why it's the only thing he takes and knowing full well that not everything those pages contain is pretty. I hope everything is well with you too! 😉