Without the Wrestling Thread, There Is...No...You! - - - Part 188

[PyroChamber]

Is part 2 of the Art of Wrestling with Punk tomorrow or Thursday?

 

[the dmg]

I thought I replied a few days ago about the Art of Wrestling Podcast with Punk, but something happened. Anyways, it seems like Punk needed to make a statement that he was mentally and physically broken, plus all the empty promises. He probably would have come back after proper healing and recovering from injuries/staph infection (seriously, what the ****). I haven't listened to the Austin podcast with Vince, but from the way Vince acts, he's in his own world most of the time. He calls/texts Punk asking if he's ready to come back/healed up without even addressing the elephant in the room. There's so much to take away from Punk's interview, as it's stuff we more or less knew, but more detailed, such as wrestler's working through injuries except to the extent mentioned.

Just to touch on Jericho's remarks regarding Punk, I think he misinterpreted what Punk was saying about having an agenda. Punk was probably paranoid/frustrated with everything, and on top of the lawsuits (which apparently has something saying he can't file for malpractice against WWE) that he was seeing people who have ties to WWE getting information about him through soundbites on a podcast or passed through to the top. Punk wanted to talk about it when he was ready and didn't want anything being passed around that could be misinterpreted.

Then getting into WWE's not having an idea with how they will pay their people for PPV's with the Network launch, withholding his royalty checks for no reason, and Triple H for giving him his pink slip on his wedding day.

And people should listen to Art of Wrestling in general because it's great. I didn't know that they were considering bringing Cabana to WWE as an announcer. That would have been gold, but at least let him do his thing in the midcard since he's still one of my favorites.

I can't wait to listen to Austin's and weigh in on that.

I just subscribed to NJPW World and it's already worth the $8.40. Few things:
This is awesome

The site not being in English hasn't been a problem so far.

The translate feature in Chrome does a good enough job to get the idea, plus the URL for each link is actually in English anyway (up the top you have "Schedule", " Shows" etc.)

This actually runs faster than the Network for me and my Network (at least) used to run fine

Hefty archive up already (SO. MUCH. INOKI.) and from what I've managed to figure out via Chrome's translation, pretty much every show will be put up as they're taped. So expect the finals of the World Tag League to go up on the 7th.

Schedule has shows right through to end of Jan. Yes, Wrestle Kingdom 9 will be live.

When Jim Ross said NJPW listens to their fans, he meant it and this is another case of that.

Wait...they already launched? Done. They should have price it higher honestly. I still think WWE Network should have launched at $14.99.

 

[Frico]

Holy ****.

 

[JabarR]

WWE SmackDown Spoilers – December 5th, 2014

Spoiler

*Dark match: Natalya defeat Paige. Paige tapped out to the Sharpshooter after a good back & forth match.


* Dark match: NXT Champion Adrian Neville defeat Sami Zayn with Red Arrow.


* Santino Marella kicks off SmackDown with a promo and reveals that he will be this week’s guest General Manager. He plugs Jingle All The Way 2.


* Dolph Ziggler vs. Luke Harper in a rematch for the WWE Intercontinental Title is first. Ziggler wins after Harper hits a low blow kick. Harper grabs a ladder to powerbomb Ziggler on it but Ziggler counters and hits a facebuster. Ziggler throws the ladder at a retreating Harper. Santino comes out and puts the two in a Ladder Match at TLC.


* They air a look back at The Authority.


* Seth Rollins, Kane, Big Show, Joey Mercury and Jamie Noble come out. Rollins talks about putting John Cena through a table on RAW. Show talks about his Stairs Match at TLC and slams the steps on top of each other to taunt Erick Rowan. Kane takes the mic from Big Show when he apparently calls him an idiot. Kane says he’s going to feed Ryback chair after chair at TLC. Santino comes out and tells them to take it easy. He announces Ryback and Rowan vs. Rollins and Show for tonight’s main event.


* Xavier Woods and Kofi Kingston vs. Tyson Kidd and Cesaro is next. Big E and Natalya are at ringside. New Day wins after a double team move that saw Woods come down with a diving stomp. Stardust and Goldust appeared on the big screen after the match. They ran down the positive message that New Day sends. Woods responds and says the darkness of the universe won’t hold them down. Kofi challenges them and Big E preaches on the power of A New Day.


* Naomi is shown backstage with flowers that were sent. Jimmy Uso shows up and says he didn’t send them. The card reads, “Apologies from Miz.” Uso throws the vase at the floor and breaks it.


* We get a replay of Jack Swagger’s Main Event promo about Rusev.


* Dean Ambrose comes out and says he enjoyed himself on RAW, especially destroying Bray Wyatt’s rocking chair. Ambrose says Wyatt’s plan hasn’t worked out so well and he will put him down at TLC. Ambrose says the mind games are over. Lana and Rusev come to the stage. Lana says Rusev will not compete due to America’s intimidation. She shows a replay of the Swagger beatdown. Rusev and Lana run down America. Rusev says he will stomp every bone in Swagger’s body just like he did to Zeb Colter. Ambrose already tuned them out when Lana said Rusev wouldn’t compete and says he came here to fight. Ambrose runs up the ramp but is met by Wyatt. Wyatt beats him down. Ambrose comes back but gets taken down and hit in the throat with a steel chair. Wyatt smashes Ambrose against the steps with a chair and leaves him laying. Trainers come out and check on Ambrose. They put him in a neck brace before taking him away on a stretcher.


* The Miz vs. Jey Uso is next. The Miz cuts a promo and doesn’t understand why Jimmy Uso is upset. He’s trying to help Naomi. The Usos run out and Miz taunts Jimmy. The referee ends up sending Jimmy to the back. Miz wins with a Skull Crushing Finale after Jey goes after Damien Sandow.


* AJ Lee is on commentary for Brie Bella vs. Naomi. Nikki Bella is also at ringside. Nikki tries to interfere but AJ pulls her off the apron. Naomi grabs Brie for a school boy and the win.


* Backstage segment with Santino talking to The Bunny about the pressure on his shoulders tonight.


* We see Seth Rollins and Big Show backstage getting ready.


* Seth Rollins and Big Show vs. Ryback and Erick Rowan is the main event. The referee sends Kane to the back for trying to interfere but misses a tag between Show and Rollins. He keeps Show out of the ring and Rowan hits a big boot on Show. Rollins argues with the referee and turns around to Shellshocked from Ryback for the win.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

Wait...they already launched? Done. They should have price it higher honestly. I still think WWE Network should have launched at $14.99.

It just launched Monday morning.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Spoiler

A Stairs Match at TLC? What the hell?

 

[TheNextNolan22]

Spoiler

A Stairs Match at TLC? What the hell?

It's going to be a Chairs Match. Mistake on the author's part.

 

[The Apocalypse]

It's going to be a Chairs Match. Mistake on the author's part.

But it isn't out of the realm of possibly that they would have a stairs match.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I've listened to Vince's comments on Punk and while he doesn't admit as much as he should, I felt like there was a "I don't want another Warrior" sincerity in his tone. I think Warrior dying so soon after they mended fences hit Vince hard, and given his advancing age I can't help but feel he doesn't want to take any chances regarding lingering bad blood with guys he genuinely has a soft spot for and who did a lot for WWE.

Cesaro.
Vince McMahon's comments about Cesaro will likely be the most frustrating thing for any long-time fan of his to digest.

Cesaro's placement in the card currently is due to being a victim of the start/stop/start booking that plagues a lot of the talents today and that all begins and ends with Vince seeing things he likes and doesn't like in talents that have nothing to do with how the audience sees them.

Let's not forget that Chris Jericho often tells the talent of wrestling Daniel Bryan on the debut of WWE NXT and telling Vince after that Bryan was a star. Vince's reaction? "Him? He doesn't even eat meat!" That right there is a great insight into the thought process of what being a star means to Vince McMahon and how hard it is for talents to overcome whatever perception Vince has of them.

Cesaro may be a beast in the ring. He may have great matches. He may have that unique European presentation, but if Vince doesn't see him as "having it", where Cesaro resides now - the nexus that is the mid-card, is likely where he will always dwell.
Ask Zack Ryder.

It wasn't Cesaro who asked to stop doing the Big Swing. It was WWE who told him to stop. When you start taking elements of a performer away from him - elements that were getting a reaction - without something equal to replace them with, and then book him to lose all the time, what sort of connection do you expect him to have?

Cesaro hasn't been used right since he won the Andre the Giant Battle Royal. Austin pretty much said that to Vince but the message didn't seep through. Go back and study how he's been utilized Vince, and you will see why he's "not there yet". It has NOTHING to do with being European, or is that the excuse as for why Bad News Barrett, Sheamus, etc. haven't grabbed the brass ring, either?

This was a tough one, on one hand you could have had Cesaro keep on swinging and getting those pops, but if he was to get to the next level he was going to need more and he can't cut a promo, so they put him with the mic master, and I think the idea was to build it so the crowd wanted him to split from Paul and when it happened he'd get the promo chance to unleash on Heyman and really establish some personality.

None of this excuses the complete lack of a plan b when it fell through of course, but I think Cesaro was/is a tough nut to crack as far as getting him molded into a main event package.

Millennials

I don't think I have ever heard, over the course of any interview, podcast or public statement, the owner of a company pretty much bury the entire roster he has, but that's what Vince McMahon did last night - on the Network they built with their own hard work.
When Vince said that he felt the current roster where "Millennials" who didn't show the same aggression that the Attitude Era talents did, what he was really telling them is that they suck, although he did name a few that he felt were doing well.

Meanwhile, Austin blatantly said that the talents walk around on eggshells backstage and are afraid to piss anyone off. Vince's reaction? "So, They better not piss anyone off then" was the absolutely stupidest thing he could have said. What Vince should have said is, "I wish they would piss me off. Then, I wish they would prove me wrong. I would welcome that."
Vince McMahon painted his locker room as a bunch of lazy failures who are happy to be in the corner he has painted for them and then warned them they better not do anything to disrupt that. That my friends is exactly why we have a bunch of Harlem Globetrotters, happy to be on the roster and perform, instead of a bunch of NBA Superstars seeking to shake things up so they can win The NBA championship.

It's an analogy I've made many a times before about today's WWE roster vs. the past rosters, but it's true. There are far too many of the talents scared to take a stand, scared to do what they know in their hearts is right as performers and too shackled by overwritten scripts to break out as performers.

If Vince really feels that way, he should turn around and fire the entire roster. He's got hungry talents in NXT waiting, so bring them up and throw them to wolves. Obviously, these Millenials aren't getting the job done.
When you think back to last night, remember that Austin challenged the performers to break out. Vince didn't. He just crapped on them.

This was arguably the worst part of the whole interview, worse than the title comment, worse than any issue with Punk, even worse than the blatant brass ring ********. It was like Dunn fed Vince a new buzzword to use to basically throw the entire locker room under the bus in one fell swoop!

Speaking of which, when was the last great moment on Raw you can name Vince? The type that will be celebrated the way the Austin beer truck moment is? Or Hogan vs. Andre?

Punk's pipebomb, Occupy Raw, Bryan in the cage with Bray controlling the crowd in a way only a handful of guys have ever done. There's just three off the top of my head, and why use Hogan vs Andre? that was before Raw even existed. WWE can still create moments now and then, those are something that will always exist because it's a one off type of deal. WWE's issue is producing anything close to a consistent and entertaining weekly wrestling show that simply builds on the previous weeks show and keeps you interested in multiple members of the roster.

Ok so...out of everything so far...

- Dolph Ziggler vs Luke Harper: This is a feud that needs more mic time given to it for it to be significant however I am into the idea of these two having a ladder match for the belt because it's been a while since we've seen that and these two are great workers

- Dean Ambrose vs Bray Wyatt: Once again, A feud that can be done better than it has been and despite Ambrose and Wyatt doing there parts in this, the creative laziness is causing a lack of the needed intensity. Hopefully the TLC match will give these guys a chance to not hold back and deliver a brutal match. Honestly, this feud calls for things like Dog Collar and Texas Bullrope matches.

- Seth Rollins vs Cena - The good thing about this being a tables match is that no matter who wins no one has to eat the pinfall, however it would be best if the ended was screwy because we know they want Cena vs Lesnar at the Rumble and Rollins needs to maintain steam going into his planned feud with Orton.

So these are the 3 main matches for the next PPV?

Ziggler vs Harpoer in a ladder match has the potential to be Shawn vs Razor level good IMO.

I have no idea how the feud with Ambrose and Bray has been booked or even why they are feuding, but the fact their match is going to be a full on TLC match as opposed to a chairs match is a good sign for them, I think they may even go on last. What is interesting is The Shield made their PPV mark at this PPV 2 years ago with a great TLC match against Team Hell No & Roidsack, and many of us were hopping to see The Shield vs The Waytt's at Mania in a TLC match, I guess this is the singles match spin-off

I am guessing Rollins is mostly a chicken**** heel? Even so it seems he's got the top heel spot wide open but I'd be wary of the stip. The tables match makes people think Cena can lose due to the aforementioned not needing to eat a pin, but that could just be a case of duping. Hopefully Rollins wins though as if Brock only has two matches left it would be a complete waste to have one of them be a 4th match with Cena.

 

[SuperBatman]

It's going to be a Chairs Match. Mistake on the author's part.

Isn't Kane vs. Ryback already a Chairs match? And the way Big Show and Rowan has been using the Steel Steps as of late it I wouldn't be surprised if it it is a Stairs match.

 

[Hunter Rider]

 

[Dr. Evil]

It's going to be a Chairs Match. Mistake on the author's part.

It still would not improve the match any.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Oh, there's no question in my mind that Vince hates pro wrestling now and if he could figure out a way to eliminate that aspect of his company, he would. He's absolutely delusional in thinking that WWE is a multimedia entertainment entity. Yes, they dabble in movies and music and other ventures. And, yes, they produce a form of "episodic television." But, he needs to accept that they are still a professional wrestling company at their core. As long as the vast majority of their storytelling takes place in a ring, and as long as their primary product involves worked matches between "superstars" and between "divas," they are a pro wrestling company first and foremost. Vince can reject that assertion all he wants, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Fully agree, I remember ages ago Vince made some comment about the WWE product being akin to them making mini movies, he's off his rocker if he believes that. WWE is still the fight game, it's about promos selling feuds and the feuds delivering the matches, nothing has changed, and pretty much all of WWE's attempts to branch into other aspects of entertainment have failed or are ridiculed even more than their core product.

Maybe he has adopted Russo's viewpoint...or maybe this was his viewpoint all along and Russo adopted it from him. I'm just saying that more often than not, his actions have betrayed the ridiculous words he uttered tonight.

In truth it is impossible to tell, I listened to some of that interview today and Vince contradicts himself so many times that it often felt like he was just answering as quickly as he could with whatever popped into his head as the "I'm right" version of a reply.

I definitely agree with your point about Cena and Orton...if anyone had to end the streak, they were certainly just as if not more worthy than Brock.

Like a lot of the interview it showed Vince has a real lack of respect and/or faith in his current roster, maybe because they aren't as much his creations as the stars used to be when the company was smaller in terms of the tighter circles involved in building stars and concepts.

However, out of everything he said/did tonight, I was most offended by him rolling his eyes when Austin asked if there was a way for fans to reach out to him and voice their opinions/share their ideas. I'm not even necessarily saying he has to (or even should) want our feedback...but don't roll your eyes when being asked about communicating with your customers. That was extremely insulting.

Yep, in one breath he says his philosophy is tp put his ego aside to give fans what they want as it's best for business, and a couple of beats later he dismisses the notion of listening to fans as beneath him and contemptuous. Like most of the interview it's a contradiction.

 

[Slushy]

Steel steps are legal to use in a Stairs match. #WWELogic

 

[Slushy]

Brand . . .Brand . . . Brand.

I know you are all waiting for me to comment on the interview that Vince McMahon did with Stone Cold Steve Austin on the WWE Network last night . . . so here I am. It’s funny when I read the “dirt sheets” this morning and they all talk about “dissecting this interview over the next couple of days”. My question? Dissect WHAT? Dissect Vince McMahon’s answers to “Stone” Cold’s questions? What the hell is there to dissect?

Having been sown to Vince’s hip for five years, there’s nothing”shocking”, or even “news worthy” that comes out of this interview. Nothing. Outside of the story that VINCE WAS GOING TO SPEAK—on his own network of course—what’s actually there? He apologized to Punk for releasing him on his wedding day? It was his call to end the Undertaker’s streak? FREAKIN’ WHOOPEE! This entire interview was set up to help Vince get subscribers for his network—plain and simple. And, I don’t blame him for once second. Every wrestling fan tuned in after they were bored to tears with RAW. Me? Three hours of WWE was enough. In addition, I knew that there was really nothing “Watergate Worthy” that Vince was going to disclose.

But, you want a scoop? here it is ; There is no way ON GOD’S GREEN EARTH (thanks HBK), that Vince McMahon is a happy man these days—NO WAY. When you look at both the facts, and the current WWE product—Vince would actually have to be comatose to be walking around with a smile on his face. To his extreme credit—Vince was smack in the middle of the height of the Attitude Era. He was there, he experienced it every, single week for the good part of three years. The entire WORLD was buzzing about the WWE–Hollywood was even chasing ME down to produce television shows for them. Now, 15 years later . . . gone . . . all gone. After all that, the wrestling business has digresed all the way back to where it was before the Attitude Era was even born. Honestly, it’s a wonder they don’t bring back Mantaur next week.

You watched last night’s show—you know what your true opinion is of that show—you tell me . . . do you think THE Vince McMahon actually thought that was a gallant effort? Really? I can’t believe that for one second. And, he can sit down with “The Rattlesnake” as be as cool, calm and collected as Vince always is . . . but it’s all a facade . . . just his game face. There’s nothing to dissect about last night’s “monumental” interview. No, wait . . . there is—Vince wanted you to tune into his network and you did. But, let me make this point clear—-take nothing away from Austin. Steve asked all the right questions, be it that he didn’t go as far as he probably wanted to simply out of respect to the boss. And, I don’t blame him . . . not for a second. Above all you have to give Vince his respect because he has indeed earned that. But, to take anything away from that interview? Getting a new insight, different side? Vince would never give you that—not even for $9.99, because if he was going to be blatantly honest he simply would have said, “We’re letting our fans down, we know it, and we’re going to fix that.” On a few occasions Vince made sure he stated that “it’s about our fans”, “we listen to our fans”. Well, don’t your fans speak through the number of people who are watching your product. What exactly did the 750,000 fans say to you last week, Vince, when they turned off the show from hour one to hour two because you failed to follow-up with Sting? If you actually would have listened, and heard, then wouldn’t the Stinger have been on THIS WEEK’S SHOW? I’m just asking.

Sorry, my beloved Brand, I love you, I always will, but the real story is that Vince probably picked up a few new subscribers last nite.

With that said, Russo's guest on The Swerve is none other than Kurt Angle!

 

[sweetre15]

Does anyone think that the Ambrose/Wyatt feud calls for "on location" segments to ramp up the intensity?

I mean, with those two I can easily see something crazy like this happening:

Ambrose goes all the way down to Bray's hideout in that barnyard to look for him while holding a crowbar in his hand. When he gets inside the barn he seems some creepy stuff but goes on to say something like "Bray, come out, come out whereever you are" and before he knows it he hears a deep demonic voice say "RUN!" and then comes Bray with a sneak attack and that leads to them brawling for a bit and Ambrose knocks him out with the crowbar and suddenly...he hears an old lady's voice out of nowhere and a creepy image of her flashes before him causing him to retreat with a slightly scared look in his eye.

I mean maybe I'm overdoing it but what do you guys think? Could this feud use more segments like that?

 

[NDX]

No matter what Wyatt/Ambrose does, I can't get into the the story portion of the feud. I have no problem watching the matches and beatdowns, but other than that nothing's going to get me interested. Been feeling that way about Wyatt for a few months now in general.

 

[Kaleb]

Anyone get the feeling that it was HHH/Steph that gave the order to sack Punk , Punk said that he got a text from HHH 2 days before his wedding saying that they need to talk, and Punk told him he would be happy to after the wedding which was 2 days. I get the feeling HHH and Steph both felt insulted by this and probably went behind Vince's back and fired him.

 

[runawayboulder]

I'd say it's more than likely.

 

[runawayboulder]

I was just reading about WWE heavily editing Nikki Bella's Smackdown promo. Man, they just can't get out of their own way. When someone delivers that well, you gotta run with it.

http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news...bella-promo-that-was-edited-on-wwe-smackdown/

 

[H.U.S.T.L.E.]

This was a tough one, on one hand you could have had Cesaro keep on swinging and getting those pops, but if he was to get to the next level he was going to need more and he can't cut a promo, so they put him with the mic master, and I think the idea was to build it so the crowd wanted him to split from Paul and when it happened he'd get the promo chance to unleash on Heyman and really establish some personality.

None of this excuses the complete lack of a plan b when it fell through of course, but I think Cesaro was/is a tough nut to crack as far as getting him molded into a main event package.

I disagree that Cesaro is tough to figure out as a main event player - the real problem is that Vince and WWE don't know how to book, utilize and market a main event performer any more if they aren't capable of talking through an entire segment on their own. They've used the "main event promo" as a crutch for far too long now, and they've forgotten how to book someone of little to no words at the top of the card.

If the retort is Brock Lesnar, I'm not sure it's valid right now considering how infrequently he appears. Back during his first run from 2001-2004, they did a good job... mainly because after his split from Heyman, who was booking the show? Oh yeah, Heyman.

Cesaro and Heyman together SHOULD have been the answer, but they took the wrong tact by having Heyman build up Lesnar at every chance with Cesaro just standing behind him and getting "sloppy seconds" of Paul's affection. While I know that Paul was a heel manager, he's good enough to tow the line there and allow Cesaro to be the face while still having heel manager tendencies. Really, it should have been much like his relationship with Punk after WM 29 (where it was clear to everyone but returning good guy Punk that Heyman had ulterior motives).

The fact of the matter is this: not every talent has the same skillset, so guys should be presented differently. If a guy isn't a great promo but is one of the top workers in the company, there's a way around that to still get him over as a main event talent. Whether that's pre-taped interviews (which were AWESOME when they did it with Brock), vignettes, or just short and to-the-point promos in the ring.

The thing that drives me crazy about WWE and one of the reasons why I don't watch much of it any more is that the format never changes. They found a formula and have stubbornly clung to it, refusing to tailor it to the performers themselves. And really, this is mainly at the main event level. For everything they've done well with Rusev to this point, I fear for him when he's eventually going to be asked to cut "main event promos."

 

[TheNextNolan22]

 

[Slushy]

Did you know The Macho Man and The Ultimate Warrior had a post-match interview following their WWF Championship match at SummerSlam 1992 that wasn't aired?

Anyone get the feeling that it was HHH/Steph that gave the order to sack Punk , Punk said that he got a text from HHH 2 days before his wedding saying that they need to talk, and Punk told him he would be happy to after the wedding which was 2 days. I get the feeling HHH and Steph both felt insulted by this and probably went behind Vince's back and fired him.

Wouldn't surprise me. Somebody at Titan Towers just let Rock's contract run out 10 years ago without even bothering to call him.

I was just reading about WWE heavily editing Nikki Bella's Smackdown promo. Man, they just can't get out of their own way. When someone delivers that well, you gotta run with it.

Even Cena was like WTF?

 

[Kaleb]

FOX 5 in Atlanta (via ProWrestling.net) reports that Atlanta police have issued an arrest warrant for Heath Slater (real name Heath Miller) for an incident at the WrestleMania 27 after-party in 2011.

Corrine Oliver, who was working security, claims that Slater put her in a chokehold and tried to get her into an elevator to drag her to his room at the Hyatt Regency Atlanta. She claims the attack caused damage to five vertebrae in her back.

She reported the matter to her supervisor (at Allied Barton Securities) the morning after it happened, but she waited three months to file a police report. She claimed that she waited for the supervisors to file the report but they didn’t. She also said that other wrestlers saw what Slater was doing and didn’t help. The police report said the incident was a “simple assault/battery”.

WWE lawyer Jerry McDevitt said in a statement that the charges were filed against Slater and not the company.

 

[bullets]

Anyone get the feeling that it was HHH/Steph that gave the order to sack Punk , Punk said that he got a text from HHH 2 days before his wedding saying that they need to talk, and Punk told him he would be happy to after the wedding which was 2 days. I get the feeling HHH and Steph both felt insulted by this and probably went behind Vince's back and fired him.

It could have been handled better , but Punk had been ignoring them for months. Punk left them between a rock and a hard place. I don't think Triple H really likes the guy who called him a doofus and as history shows us Triple H can be very self serving. Triple H probably had no issue pulling the trigger on that one , but I don't think he did anything underhanded or sneaky. The papers on the wedding day could easily of been coincidental.