Writing Characters out of...character

True, it is about the context. But it's like you say, the "thee" makes it distinct. It's pure Thor. If it was "you" it wouldn't be distinct or unique and thusly, iconic. It could have been anyone saying it.

The tone and meter of the line is still very Thor-ish. And iconic doesn't necessary mean unique. It just means how well it sticks in people's minds. The context of the line is so awesome I think it would have stuck in people's minds regardless.
 
I disagree. I don't think it would have stuck in peoples minds as much.

I mean, we could just mention it out of context on here, in like a favourite comic book quotes thread or whatever. And immediately people would say it's Thor. If it was "you" it could have been anyone saying it.
 
I disagree. I don't think it would have stuck in peoples minds as much.

I mean, we could just mention it out of context on here, in like a favourite comic book quotes thread or whatever. And immediately people would say it's Thor. If it was "you" it could have been anyone saying it.

But just being able to identify it's Thor isn't what makes it an iconic Thor line. It's the knowlege of the context that does that. If someone who never heard of that Avengers issue saw the line but it said "You," they'd say "so what, what's that?" If someone saw it with the "thee," without the context, they'd say "Wait, is that from Thor or something? So what?"

But everyone who is aware of the context has pretty much agreed that is the iconic Thor line, not because there is a thee in it but because it captures Thor's nature of a calm, intelligent warrior full or righteous fury and it's in the context of the coolest thing Thor did during Busiek's run on Avengers.
 
^ Your both right IMO. "Thee" makes it uniquely Thor and plays into why its so iconic, yet all the other reasons are just as important.
 
Thee and Thou have their moments. For example in civil war 7 Herc crushing Clor's head with his own hammer screaming "Thou art no Thor!" was probably the best part of civil war and just wouldn't have had the coolness subbing you for thou
 
Thee and Thou have their moments. For example in civil war 7 Herc crushing Clor's head with his own hammer screaming "Thou art no Thor!" was probably the best part of civil war and just wouldn't have had the coolness subbing you for thou

Honestly, I thought him saying "Thou" there made the line kind of clunky.
 
Honestly, I thought him saying "Thou" there made the line kind of clunky.
Yes, it did.

I don't remember. Have Pak and van Lente used plenty of olde speak like that in their Hercules run? It's not present in Herc, but was it present in Incredible Herc?
 
No, it wasn't. Not even the other gods used "thee" and "thou." I think Herc actually made fun of Thor for still speaking like that in the "Thorcules" arc, in fact.
 
Iron Man was the villain of the entire Civil War saga. He was a very thinly veiled caricature of the Bush Administration and neocons in general. Whether he said 52 was temporary or not, he was still suspending due process and the justice system to hold people he personally deems as bad indefinitely...a disgrace to the Constitution. The entire Civil War saga made Tony the bad guy and Cap the good guy. I don't think Spidey came out any better because first he was the unbelievably naive puppet of Tony (unmasking) and then OMD.

That also doesn't make bad writing now better in anyway.

What I was trying to say is every writer took a dump on Iron Man before, during and after Civil War and the end result was people who knew squat about Iron Man or never picked up a comic screamed bloody murder and wanted his head on a platter.

NOW, a writer is taking a dump on certain fan favorite charaters and rather than blaming the character, they want to blame the writer.

:whatever::whatever::whatever:
 
A writer has creative license to do what he wants. I give more leeway to those who actually adapt or reinterpret something. For example I'm more lenient on how let's say Christopher Nolan or Sam Raimi choose to adapt a character (usually rooted in what was popular in pop culture decades earlier) into another medium. Similarly, I want to see Neil Gaiman push his interpretation or reinterpretation of the Marvel Universe in 1602 as far as he can. If you're going to do an "Ultimate" alternate universe, creating a (quality) different and unique vision of the characters is to be commended.

However, if you're actually attempting to continue a character with decades of development and backstory....well first good luck coming up with something unique, original and interesting (which is unfortunately why formulas are so often recycled in comics). Secondly, if you make a character behave arbitrarily to achieve a plot point it will feel arbitrary. It goes back to that famous line, "What's the motivation?" If I can find something irrational or untrue about how a character behaves in a finite plot in a book I read, a play I see or a film I watched....you better bet it's going to be 20x more apparent in a character who has been written about infinitely.

Best example: Peter Parker selling his soul....err marriage to save Aunt May will never ever....ever make any sense or feel authentic. It felt like an arbitrary plot device--and an awful one at that--to achieve a narrative goal by the editorial board....to make Peter Parker single without having to cause him to go through divorce or being a widower. But Peter Parker would never make that decision given it is so unlike anything he's done in the last 40 years, not to mention his relationship with MJ in the last 20 years of comics. Another is Peter Parker unmasking himself in Civil War. It will never make sense for a character who wore the mask to protect his loved ones and saw what happened when a few enemies (Norman Osborn and Eddie Brock) found out who he was...Gwen Stacy dead, his Aunt May kidnapped and "killed," Flash Thompson in a coma, the loss of countless apartments and most of all the disappearance of his daughter (who btw no longer exists because editorial decided that ages him too much as well). He would never take his mask off on national television.

You can say that Stan Lee's, Gerry Conaway's, Roger Stern's, DeMatthis's, etc.'s Peters wouldn't, but JMS and Mark Millar's Peters would. However, if you read they're earlier stories from a few years prior to those events, you'd see they wrote him in line with earlier interpretations and not the idiot and tool he became.

Bad writing is bad writing. You can say "this is my version!" but if the writing stinks because it feels arbitrary, don't whine when the critics get their knives out in some cases.

Well said.

I find it more than a little depressing personally - three of my favourite heroes are Cyclops, Spidey and Iron-Man, all of whom seem to have had personality/motivation transplants in recent years. I get that it's incredibly difficult to come up with fresh new ideas after 50 years, and you need to strike a balance between character progression and tradition, but I never wanted to see Cyke throw away his ideals, Spidey throw away his marriage/memory/credibility etc or Tony clone Thor/play the villain.
 

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