Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix News and Speculation Thread - - - - Part 13

[psyonic]

Its about tonal balance more then anything else.

Its like looking at Logan and Mangold saying the comic outfit didn't fit the tone they were going for, while fans would instantly say thats BS and they should just have done it anyway, its still a case of the director doing whats best for the tone and to a certain degree the legacy of the franchise.

Now it could be argued that DOFP has time travel and robots, Apocalypse delt with an all power god like being, and Dark phoenix is gonna have aliens for the first time in the franchise history so there is a fair amount of fantasy there anyway... but its still about tonal balance in the long run.

If anything the third act of the Wolverine didn't fit with the rest of the movie, the Wolverine suit would have fit in with Viper and Samurai bot..

 

[Phoenix_Flare]

Idk how to feel about the aliens attacking the earth in the 3rd act. It’s almost ok been there done that with other mega franchises; Independence Day, Avengers, etc I hope Simon has come up with a creative way to distinguish what we’ve seen already. My hope for a final confrontation is the X-Men alongside the US army & the Brotherhood teaming up to take out the aliens and then Dark Phoenix. Heck a Dark Phoenix vs Xavier astral plan battle would be nice, but different from what we got in Apocalypse. (Ugh I wish Rogue, Gambit, Psylocke, Arc Angel were in this film classic 90s team taking on aliens would be epic!!)

 

[X-Maniac]

Time split in two at Days of Future Past. One the one hand, there's the much more interesting universe created by Singer and, on the other side, there's the Jennifer Lawrence-laden XMen still telling stories in the past and now dragging Deadpool along a few decades back in order to make themselves feel less extraneous within their own franchise. And now fans are stuck with the X-Men in the past and our beloved original timeline which is in the present is a thing of the past, as ironic as that sounds.

Deadpool is the biggest success they can point to, the only one with mainstream pop-culture appeal, so they're desperate to associate it with the mainline X-Men.

Whereas the first one had a shot of the mansion, it seemed like a different continuity, a different world. The rebooted Colossus added to that.

But it did so well that they shoved lots more X-references in the sequel.

Mystique should have bid farewell to the X-universe at Days of Future Past. No Lawrence means they could've had the budget to film X5. Lawrence also dislikes being in the blue and she can't pull off the villain we all despise. Giving into her demands completely ruined Fox's adaptation of the source material.

Yes it made no sense for her to be allowed to survive in DoFP. As long as she is alive, she could be captured and her tissue used to create the dark future of DoFP.

It was among the many reasons X:A is flawed from the beginning. It's built on bad choices.

 

[Legion]

What I don't understand is why I'm seeing so many blanket statements like this one. The official news and leaks paint a substantially different picture than TLS.

No, they don't. The news and leaks have much more in common with The Last Stand than they do the source material. It's like Kinberg binge-watched The Last Stand, Fantastic Four, and Rise of the Silver Surfer before writing this script.

The bottom line is they should never have tackled this storyline again if they were not prepared to make a faithful adaptation.

 

[GuestStar2004]

If anything the third act of the Wolverine didn't fit with the rest of the movie

Wasn't that tonal shift one of the big criticisms of that film?

 

[The Infernal]

Wasn't that tonal shift one of the big criticisms of that film?

Yes. The Wolverine suffered from the same third act breakdown Origins did, just to a lesser extent. They butchered Silver Samurai's character and Viper's and it kinda went sideways when the Silver Samurai Sentinel showed up. They should have focused more on Shingen rather than have him be a secondary villain.

 

[Legion]

Deadpool is the biggest success they can point to, the only one with mainstream pop-culture appeal, so they're desperate to associate it with the mainline X-Men.

Whereas the first one had a shot of the mansion, it seemed like a different continuity, a different world. The rebooted Colossus added to that.

But it did so well that they shoved lots more X-references in the sequel.



Yes it made no sense for her to be allowed to survive in DoFP. As long as she is alive, she could be captured and her tissue used to create the dark future of DoFP.

It was among the many reasons X:A is flawed from the beginning. It's built on bad choices.

Well her tissue pathed the way for technology that the Mark X Sentinel was built on but the Sentinel program was publicly discredited at the end of the film. It was also her assassination of Trask that apparently propelled the need for the program.

Mystique saved the day and proved that good mutant exists. She also proved that mutants are an effective weapon against other mutants. In a deleted scene Stryker was given command of what would become the Weapon X program. Fast forward to Apocalypse and we see the program in action. It seems unlikely at this point that the government would backpedal and bring a failed program back to life.

We know that there are blueprints for the Mark I out there so it's possible someone else could get a hold of those. It seems unlikely without the government funding and faith in the Sentinel program that someone else would come up with the idea for the Mark X. Not to mention that they don't have Mystique and being a shapeshifter she can go into hiding easily.

I agree though that killing her probably should have been an option on the table. Especially for Wolverine. It's also a huge flaw that anyone thought freeing Magneto from his cell beneath the Pentagon was a good idea.

 

[magneto23]

No, they don't. The news and leaks have much more in common with The Last Stand than they do the source material.

I never mentioned source material. But I'd like to hear all these similarities with TLS. By my count there aren't many.

 

[x-er]

Deadpool is the biggest success they can point to, the only one with mainstream pop-culture appeal, so they're desperate to associate it with the mainline X-Men.

Whereas the first one had a shot of the mansion, it seemed like a different continuity, a different world. The rebooted Colossus added to that.

But it did so well that they shoved lots more X-references in the sequel.



Yes it made no sense for her to be allowed to survive in DoFP. As long as she is alive, she could be captured and her tissue used to create the dark future of DoFP.

It was among the many reasons X:A is flawed from the beginning. It's built on bad choices.

I agree! Where would you have liked to see them go instead? What stories / characters were you hoping to see?

 

[1627523]

There is some additional info about the movie that I don't think has been posted yet.
"the X-Men actor confirmed to us the movie is about “family” and discovering who your true friends are when things get bad."

Evans on Dark Phoenix “I think the title kind of says it all: it’s a little bit darker and it’s a little bit more of a drama,” Peters said. “It’s really about Phoenix and Jean's inner-struggle and how that pans out, and who your real friends are. Who’s helping you through these difficult times? So it’s really about that and it’s about the X-Men family, and I think it’s a serious film.”

Evans on Quicksilver: “Quickie is with the X-Men going on missions and doing good with his powers. So he’s kind of integrated himself into that world and is trying to fit in there as best he can.”

Evans on reshoots: When asked if he’s begun reshoots, Peters said, “No, I'll be going back, I think. I’m not sure when or for how much, but I’m excited to get back in there and do some more stuff, it’ll be fun.”

 

[Legion]

I never mentioned source material. But I'd like to hear all these similarities with TLS. By my count there aren't many.

The poster of the spoilers said that scenes from X3 were repeated in this film and which scenes those were. If you've already read said spoilers and are still not convinced then I'm not sure what else to say. How many similarities are needed for this to be a valid concern?

Going by the official news I'd say that this being a "grounded" and "realistic" approach to the story already makes it too similar to TLS.

Once again including Mystique and Magneto in the story. They are not required to make a Dark Phoenix film.

Cramming in storylines that don't belong (Genosha).

Lack of Hellfire Club and Shi'ar.

These are all similarities to TLS.

Comparison to the source material will always come up with these adaptations. TLS is the only adaptation I'm aware of besides TAS. TLS was "grounded" and it was written by the same man who wrote this new film. This approach is not working - at least not with him. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Lip]

The poster of the spoilers said that scenes from X3 were repeated in this film and which scenes those were. If you've already read said spoilers and are still not convinced then I'm not sure what else to say. How many similarities are needed for this to be a valid concern?

Going by the official news I'd say that this being a "grounded" and "realistic" approach to the story already makes it too similar to TLS.

Once again including Mystique and Magneto in the story. They are not required to make a Dark Phoenix film.

Cramming in storylines that don't belong (Genosha).

Lack of Hellfire Club and Shi'ar.

These are all similarities to TLS.

Comparison to the source material will always come up with these adaptations. TLS is the only adaptation I'm aware of besides TAS. TLS was "grounded" and it was written by the same man who wrote this new film. This approach is not working - at least not with him. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah, when people mention "similarities" they don't mean copying and pasting the exact same script. They mean both movies are playing with basically the same beats.

So there is:
-Jean's struggle dealt (or alluded) as mental illness
-The grounded vision of this story
-Eric being shoved in that storyline again
-Eric as the villain again
-Eric and Charles butting heads again
-Jean killing a friend and member of the X-Men
And some other details like
-Kinberg repeating scenes from X3 but with different outcomes like Jean and Scott kissing. Or Jean almost killing Charles
-No superhero costumes
-Jean using the same red coat

 

[Drexelhand]

Yeah, when people mention "similarities" they don't mean copying and pasting the exact same script. They mean both movies are playing with basically the same beats.

So there is:
-Jean's struggle dealt (or alluded) as mental illness
-The grounded vision of this story
-Eric being shoved in that storyline again
-Eric as the villain again
-Eric and Charles butting heads again
-Jean killing a friend and member of the X-Men
And some other details like
-Kinberg repeating scenes from X3 but with different outcomes like Jean and Scott kissing. Or Jean almost killing Charles
-No superhero costumes
-Jean using the same red coat

And yet equivalent beats do exist in the comic. Instead of Eric and Charles butting heads, we had Lilandra and Charles. Jean did almost kill her father in the comic and did almost kill Charles as well. The red coat **** is stupid, but like I've said, so is the Phoenix's actual costume. I think what we're not seeing is that as unfaithful as The Last Stand was, it still did have some faithful elements.

 

[The Guard]

People realize there is more than one version of the Dark Phoenix storyline, right?

X3 drew from more than one of the takes on the story, and I have to believe filmmakers are aware of the other versions of the event for this adaption as well. While there will likely be some classic key beats explored, not every story point is going to come straight out of the original Dark Phoenix saga...nor has any comic book "event" adaption been that slavish.

-Jean's struggle dealt (or alluded) as mental illness

As opposed to what, a cosmic mental illness?

-The grounded vision of this story

This isn't unique to the adaptions of Dark Phoenix through, it's a staple of the entire franchise in many respects. The Last Stand was actually arguably one of the least grounded and most fantastic movies of the franchise, and if she's turning into a fire being.and they're going into space and there are aliens involved..how grounded is it, exactly?

-Eric being shoved in that storyline again
-Eric as the villain again
-Eric and Charles butting heads again

Again, these are not issues limited to their adaptions of the Dark Phoenix saga, this is a trend of the franchise in general; especially since FIRST CLASS.

-Jean killing a friend and member of the X-Men

Which thus far is a rumor, and if it's not, so what? Why is this an awful thing from a story standpoint?

And some other details like
-Kinberg repeating scenes from X3 but with different outcomes like Jean and Scott kissing. Or Jean almost killing Charles

Well, Jean and Scott tend to kiss in the X-Men mythology...this hardly seems like a big deal if it's an idea they use.

Jean and Charles fighting on the psychic plane is a staple of most versions of the saga, including the original. It would be kind of silly if the X-Men's resident psychic didn't attempt to resist a psychic threat, wouldn't it?

-No superhero costumes

We know they have superhero costumes from set pictures.

-Jean using the same red coat

I'll believe she's wearing the same red coat when I see it. I don't really see the issue people have with the "red coat" (which isn't just a red coat...it's an entire red outfit. Can the thing she wears in THE LAST STAND really be called a "coat")?

 

[Lip]

And yet equivalent beats do exist in the comic. Instead of Eric and Charles butting heads, we had Lilandra and Charles. Jean did almost kill her father in the comic and did almost kill Charles as well. The red coat **** is stupid, but like I've said, so is the Phoenix's actual costume. I think what we're not seeing is that as unfaithful as The Last Stand was, it still did have some faithful elements.

You mentioned one equivalent beat. Eric and Charles butting heads for the millionth isn't the same as Lilandra and Charles, and it wasn't a part of this story. The red coat is just a detail they're repeating from X3, but it's about time for them to stop shying away from the superhero elements of this *cough* superhero movie. Superheroes with civilian clothes in this franchise isn't new or inventive, it's a regression.

Besides the (grounded) aliens, there isn't anything that reminds an intergalactic cosmic adventure.

 

[Lip]

People realize there is more than one version of the Dark Phoenix storyline, right?

X3 drew from more than one of the takes on the story, and I have to believe filmmakers are aware of the other versions of the event for this adaption as well. While there will likely be some classic key beats explored, not every story point is going to come straight out of the original Dark Phoenix saga...nor has any comic book "event" adaption been that slavish.



As opposed to what, a cosmic mental illness?



This isn't unique to the adaptions of Dark Phoenix through, it's a staple of the entire franchise in many respects. The Last Stand was actually arguably one of the least grounded and most fantastic movies of the franchise, and if she's turning into a fire being.and they're going into space and there are aliens involved..how grounded is it, exactly?



Again, these are not issues limited to their adaptions of the Dark Phoenix saga, this is a trend of the franchise in general; especially since FIRST CLASS.



Which thus far is a rumor, and if it's not, so what? Why is this an awful thing from a story standpoint?



Well, Jean and Scott tend to kiss in the X-Men mythology...this hardly seems like a big deal if it's an idea they use.

Jean and Charles fighting on the psychic plane is a staple of most versions of the saga, including the original. It would be kind of silly if the X-Men's resident psychic didn't attempt to resist a psychic threat, wouldn't it?



We know they have superhero costumes from set pictures.



I'll believe she's wearing the same red coat when I see it. I don't really see the issue people have with the "red coat" (which isn't just a red coat...it's an entire red outfit. Can the thing she wears in THE LAST STAND really be called a "coat")?

You completely lost the context of the whole debate. I suggest you reading again.

 

[Drexelhand]

You mentioned one equivalent beat. Eric and Charles butting heads for the millionth isn't the same as Lilandra and Charles, and it wasn't a part of this story. The red coat is just a detail they're repeating from X3, but it's about time for them to stop shying away from the superhero elements of this *cough* superhero movie. Superheroes with civilian clothes in this franchise isn't new or inventive, it's a regression.

Besides the (grounded) aliens, there isn't anything that reminds an intergalactic cosmic adventure.

That's the only one I pointed out, but from your list there's Jean's mental illness and others that I don't want to type out right now. As for cosmic, in the M'Kraan Crystal Saga, they go full out cosmic. In The Dark Phoenix Saga, the most cosmic they go is Phoenix destroying an unknown galaxy and then the fight with the Imperial Guard on the Blue Area of the moon. That's not really that cosmic. The Dark Phoenix Saga itself is a pretty grounded arc in the comics. It isn't this huge intergalactic cosmic adventure, that's the M'Kraan Crystal Saga or the Brood Saga of the Warskrull Saga.

 

[Lip]

That's the only one I pointed out, but from your list there's Jean's mental illness and others that I don't want to type out right now. As for cosmic, in the M'Kraan Crystal Saga, they go full out cosmic. In The Dark Phoenix Saga, the most cosmic they go is Phoenix destroying an unknown galaxy and then the fight with the Imperial Guard on the Blue Area of the moon. That's not really that cosmic. The Dark Phoenix Saga itself is a pretty grounded arc in the comics. It isn't this huge intergalactic cosmic adventure, that's the M'Kraan Crystal Saga or the Brood Saga of the Warskrull Saga.

Yeah, I do count The Phoenix Saga as sort of "part 1". But still, The Dark Phoenix has those cosmic high sci-fi elements that aren't in the movies. But the point of my post was related to the debate about Dark Phoenix playing with the same beats that X3 did. And those beats listed above do not come from the comics, so there isn't the excuse that they are being similar because that's what happened in the comics.

 

[Drexelhand]

Yeah, I do count The Phoenix Saga as sort of "part 1".

And I wish Kinberg did too.

 

[GuestStar2004]

And I wish Kinberg did too.

Perhaps he did. problem is that there isn't many films that are made that ain't one full story with a follow-up.

There really ain't alot movies now days that have that back to back treatment of needing the 2nd to complete part 1 because the required story is too long.

Even Infinity War was said by the directors to be its own full story.

There is some additional info about the movie that I don't think has been posted yet.
"the X-Men actor confirmed to us the movie is about “family” and discovering who your true friends are when things get bad.

Mcavoy described it as a Family breaking up.

 

[Superhero 101]

It kind of sounds like a X-Men civil war

 

[Spider-Fan]

Few years too late to be getting into the whole Vs concept

Imagine if this had come out in 2016 instead

 

[Superhero 101]

Lol

 

[X-Maniac]

I agree! Where would you have liked to see them go instead? What stories / characters were you hoping to see?

I've only just seen this. Well, it's tricky to answer but I feel what they did in X:A just didn't work.

Apocalypse awakened by Moira lifting a carpet? LOL. Storm's white hair coming from Apocalypse? Storm worshipping Mystique? Xavier not even remembering Wolverine's plea to form the X-Men? Havok dying just to give Quicksilver a comedy scene? The motivations and cause-and-effect moments were crap.

It was the combination of the two casts (and the return of the original cast) that boosted DoFP, as well as motivating Singer to do a good job on it (he loves working with Jackman and co).

DoFP was not enough to set up a new young X-Men team because we hadn't met them yet. There was no proper passing of the torch to the new Storm, Jean, Scott, etc.

 

[EnDz0n3]

If the spoilers are to be believed,

Spoiler

anyone else find it ironic that Erik would be so incensed by Mystique's apparent death at the hands of Phoenix that he would once again oppose his "good friend" Charles?

Didn't he try to off her in the 70s? A valid excuse could be his DOFP actions were motivated by wanting to save mutantkind then, but I doubt Kinberg gave this any thought.