Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix News and Speculation Thread - - - - - - Part 15

[Lip]

Mystique should have been written away from both Charles' and Magneto's ideologies. She uses anybody to get what she wants.

Eric should also have been written away along with his ideology conflicts with Charles, to give room to some fresh new stories and the development of other characters...

 

[The Guard]

I mean...given the Mystique's character trajectory in film thus far, it makes perfect sense narratively for Mystique to be the "mother figure/mentor" type with the younger X-Men in this film. I don't read "sometimes friendly" as "best friend", though. I read that as "reluctantly social".

If Mystique was going to be present in this film and working with the X-Men, she was likely to be some kind of mentor. That's how she's been set up in previous films, as a figure they idolize, someone who's been around the block a bit, the veteran of the war. It's the natural evolution of this version of the character. Mystique does tend to have some sort of reluctantly maternal instincts in the comics. She's sort of like Wolverine in that regard from time to time.

I get that people are mad that this is the case and that this isn't accurate to the comics and that this has elements of what is traditionally Storm's role to a degree, but it's also Moira's, and has fallen to various other characters as well. At least they're utilizing the concept and those character dynamics in general. I think that bodes well for character relationships and the "family" atmosphere in general, which has probably been the main thing lacking from previous X-Men entries.

I've never seen Storm as just a mother figure. She's always struck me more as Jean's "sister" than anything else.

I wouldn't worry. Mystique will show up in the credits as a one dimensional villain with her own Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, and everything will be fine with the world.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Mystique should have been written away from both Charles' and Magneto's ideologies. In the comics she manipulates anybody to get what she wants. Why not write a badass supervillain? Maybe antihero? I think she could've paired up with Deadpool or somehow fooled him into working for her, but there are others she's paired up with before like Apocalypse, Sinister...

Because JLaw is a limited actress. There I said it. I mean I've been saying it, we've all been saying it. Some since First Class. Oscars, accolades and all.

But apparently having an actress suck in a role, and clearly not wanting to be there is not a valid excuse to cut her out of these movies.

 

[X-Maniac]

I wouldn't have been expecting Storm to be an Earth Mother figure in this (especially given how they have treated Storm in this franchise) but the Mystique character in these prequels just doesn't work, in my view.

Casting, acting, characterisation... it just feels unconvincing.

I liked the very young child Mystique (different actress) appearing in the mansion in First Class, and I liked the idea of Mystique's ability being used for the adaptive Sentinels, but that's about it.

I also keep wondering what's been happening in the 10-year gaps. Do they just all sit around watching TV? Do they go on any missions at all? It's just this weird thing like an elephant in the room. A decade is a long time.

Also, where was future Mystique in DoFP? They never mention her at all. The assumption is she must be dead, but it's never brought up. Non-geek friends of mine who saw DoFP found the obvious thing was why didn't they send back the Romijn Mystique to not do the bad stuff her younger version did. I had to say 'Well, she must be dead' and they kept asking 'How do you know? Why was it never mentioned?'

So, the whole thing with Mystique in these prequels doesn't really work. They should have picked a totally different character who wasn't in the original trilogy and hired a better actress.

Bring on the MCU X-Men. Anything that doesn't feature JLaw's wooden acting and mischaracterisation has to be an improvement.

 

[carpenter82]

Mystique should have been written away from both Charles' and Magneto's ideologies. In the comics she manipulates anybody to get what she wants. Why not write a badass supervillain? Maybe antihero? I think she could've paired up with Deadpool or somehow fooled him into working for her, but there are others she's paired up with before like Apocalypse, Sinister...

Because we've already seen Mystique as a super villain in three films up till this point.

Lawrence's Mystique is an anti-hero. She doesn't fully commit to being on the side of the Angels until the very end of Apocalypse.

 

[carpenter82]

I mean...given the Mystique's character trajectory in film thus far, it makes perfect sense narratively for Mystique to be the "mother figure/mentor" type with the younger X-Men in this film. I don't read "sometimes friendly" as "best friend", though. I read that as "reluctantly social".

If Mystique was going to be present in this film and working with the X-Men, she was likely to be some kind of mentor. That's how she's been set up in previous films, as a figure they idolize, someone who's been around the block a bit, the veteran of the war. It's the natural evolution of this version of the character. Mystique does tend to have some sort of reluctantly maternal instincts in the comics. She's sort of like Wolverine in that regard from time to time.

I get that people are mad that this is the case and that this isn't accurate to the comics and that this has elements of what is traditionally Storm's role to a degree, but it's also Moira's, and has fallen to various other characters as well. At least they're utilizing the concept and those character dynamics in general. I think that bodes well for character relationships and the "family" atmosphere in general, which has probably been the main thing lacking from previous X-Men entries.

I've never seen Storm as just a mother figure. She's always struck me more as Jean's "sister" than anything else.

I wouldn't worry. Mystique will show up in the credits as a one dimensional villain with her own Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, and everything will be fine with the world.

Completely agree. It's in character for this iteration of Mystique. You have to take character choices, and motivations into the context of this particular series.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Completely agree. It's in character for this iteration of Mystique. You have to take character choices, and motivations into the context of this particular series.

Her trajectory at the end of First Class was her joining Magneto's brotherhood.
DOFP didn't follow that "trajectory."
Her trajectory at the end of DOFP was she saw the evil of her ways but wasn't going to align with Xavier either.
Apocalypse didn't follow that "trajectory."
In Apocalypse she was all-in on the mission to Cairo, when Cyclops tells her he can't control his powers telling him "Then don't!" The movie ends with her saying they weren't kids any more, they were X-men.

Now in Dark Phoenix Mystique is supposed to be the voice of reason, she's now the responsible one and Xavier is now the one pushing the kids to their limits. But she was the one that brought the kids to Egypt...

No this is not her trajectory.

Flip.

Flop.

 

[The Guard]

Her trajectory at the end of First Class was her joining Magneto's brotherhood.
DOFP didn't follow that "trajectory."

No, that's not her trajectory, that's her team affiliation at the end of the film.

Her character arc's trajectory was gradually fully accepting that she was a mutant, not rejecting it at all, and to embrace her abilities. It was a story of empowerment for her.

And where does DAYS OF FUTURE PAST pick up? With Mystique continuing Magneto's war against humanity after the Brotherhood has been killed/disbanded/imprisoned. Clearly headed in a similar direction to her character's trajectory at the end of FIRST CLASS.

Her trajectory at the end of DOFP was she saw the evil of her ways but wasn't going to align with Xavier either. Apocalypse didn't follow that "trajectory."

It absolutely does. APOCALYPSE opens up with Mystique no longer attacking humanity and undermining mutant/human relations, but now serving as a covert mutant freedom fighter, more concerned with rescuing mutants who are being mistreated. She's now moving back toward Xavier's goals and vision as the film progresses. Reluctantly, but that's her character arc.

Where does APOCALYPSE end? Oh. With her aligning with Xavier.

In Apocalypse she was all-in on the mission to Cairo, when Cyclops tells her he can't control his powers telling him "Then don't!" The movie ends with her saying they weren't kids any more, they were X-men.

Now in Dark Phoenix Mystique is supposed to be the voice of reason, she's now the responsible one and Xavier is now the one pushing the kids to their limits. But she was the one that brought the kids to Egypt.

No this is not her trajectory.

That's because she gradually changes her mind about a militant approach with the young X-Men, about them using their powers to fight for their cause. It's literally her character arc. That's why her serving as their drill instructor at the end of significant. It represents the shift in her ideology that took place over the film.

She's not necessarily responsible...but she is experienced compared to the others. She seems willing to risk lives and exposure for the greater good.

And what else are we going to see in DARK PHOENIX? What's been talked about, in terms of the trajectory of the team itself? A more public X-Men. Which is what she was initially rejecting at the outset of APOCALYPSE. Gradually moving toward Xavier's vision.

Flip.

Flop.

This is reductionist. Many characters in the X-Men universe have switched sides. It's the nature of the gray areas involved in the ongoing mutant/human conflict, and a classic element of the X-Men mythology, moreso than perhaps any other superhero mythology.

Mystique's arc in the prequel films may not be comic book accurate, but it has been well drawn, well developed, and fairly consistent in its exploration of a character learning to balance her militant tendencies for the greater good.

 

[Jh7058622]

,

What people really need to remember are a few things:

(1) Sophie is 24, Alexandra is 27. Around the same age for both characters when Jean originally "died" in the comics. Yet, Storm is Earth Mother to the comic X-men. And if you wanna say that's not Storm yet, well neither is Mystique! Jean and Mystique spoke one time aboard the X-jet in Apocalypse. 10 years ago. And if you wanna say JLaw is older than both of them and so she can be maternal and AShipp can't...yea Lawrence 11 months older than Shipp. I guess that 11th month really changes a person. Jennifer should watch out, one month older and she'll be grandmotherly.

(2) Alexandra's Storm can be maternal and/or big sisterly to Sophie's Jean. If Kinberg wrote that onto his script. Jean has lived a sheltered life, seemingly shielded from the anti-mutant paranoia outside the mansion gates until the events of Apocalypse. Storm, on the other hand, has lived the hard life on the streets of Cairo, pickpocketing to help support young orphans. Would it be out of the realm of possibility that African, street urchin Ororo Munroe have a few life lessons that she can impart to All-American, picket fences Jean Grey? Besides you know who else is supposedly an orphan in this? Ms Grey. The script practically writes itself.

(3) And more importantly, in a franchise that has never cared to line up character ages from previous iterations, a franchise that has never cared to make Xavier and Magneto look like men in their 60s, or Beast look like a man in his 50s, or to show that Moira has aged 20 years since First Class, or that Lucas' Havok is supposedly 20 years older than Tye's Cyclops, you are going to let 2 other characters' ages get in the way of a better role for one, maybe both of them?

Storm was more like early 30s and Jean was fresh out of her teens going into her mid 20s like 23ish. when they first met so no. The Giant Sized X-Men were all grown adults well into their lives that's what made them so different from the previous incarnations of the team.

She was not a mere 3 years older than her. Also Storm was never really "motherly" towards Jean anyway they had more of an older-younger sister vibe.

Storm was much more "maternal" towards Kitty while Jean had the older sister vibe with characters like Kitty and Jubilee.

As far as how she's written she was not on the X-Men's team during Apocalypse and we have no idea how she's going to be handled in the friendship/sisterhood. But like I've been saying it would be a big mistake to not have them be friends before the Phoenix Force starts taking over and show how it tests that friendship.

I don't even know what in Emma Frost's Hellfire Club that last part was even trying to say...

One last thing, in the Ultimate universe Storm and Jean's relationship is kind of flipped or more even as Storm seems a bit more immature than Jean so I wonder which way they're going 616 or 1610.

I especially wonder because Ororo's entire FC timeline seems to be based more on that version as she was more of a villain or someone who toed the line more with her morals and a bit more naive, less refined and regal (not worshiped as a queen goddess).

 

[ciscostudent561]

yeah i see jean and storm as peers not mother figures to each other.

 

[psyonic]

Spoiler: Captain Marvel Skrulls

So I just watched CM and the Skrull's role in the movie was very inconsequential to the MCU overall, it looks like their arc ends in CM so I don't see MCU doing Secret Invasion at all. To be honest, from what we heard regarding the Skrulls in DP and what they were planning would have been better than how they were utilized in CM, in my opinion that is and I'm kind of baffled by this lol..

 

[Frankeh]

Because we've already seen Mystique as a super villain in three films up till this point.

You can't change a character's essence just for novelty's sake.

And they haven't even kept themselves consistent in this change anyways, in FC she was gearing up to become Magneto's right hand like in the OT and they changed her trajectory in the very next film..

 

[X-Maniac]

Spoiler: Captain Marvel Skrulls

So I just watched CM and the Skrull's role in the movie was very inconsequential to the MCU overall, it looks like their arc ends in CM so I don't see MCU doing Secret Invasion at all. To be honest, from what we heard regarding the Skrulls in DP and what they were planning would have been better than how they were utilized in CM, in my opinion that is and I'm kind of baffled by this lol..

Well the third act of DP was totally changed, either because of bad reaction at test screenings or because Feige/Disney suggested/requested it.

If they completed the original DP ending (set at the UN), I hope an alternate version is on the Blu-ray.

 

[marvintabacon]

Out of topic but I Already saw CM i was really hyped by the movie that i created a Fan Art for it!!! I dont like it so flat,boring and predictable.Anyways here’s my fan art.

 

[EnDz0n3]

There was no Dark Phoenix trailer on my Captain Marvel screening.

,Storm was more like early 30s and Jean was fresh out of her teens going into her mid 20s like 23ish. when they first met so no.

LOL No Storm wasn't in her 30s when she was first introduced.

The Giant Sized X-Men were all grown adults well into their lives that's what made them so different from the previous incarnations of the team.

I don't know if you know but people in their 20s are also "grown adults."

She was not a mere 3 years older than her. Also Storm was never really "motherly" towards Jean anyway they had more of an older-younger sister vibe.

Storm was much more "maternal" towards Kitty while Jean had the older sister vibe with characters like Kitty and Jubilee.

I did say Storm is maternal or older sister to Jean. So she will be neither to Jean in Dark Phoenix. And that is the point.

As far as how she's written she was not on the X-Men's team during Apocalypse and we have no idea how she's going to be handled in the friendship/sisterhood. But like I've been saying it would be a big mistake to not have them be friends before the Phoenix Force starts taking over and show how it tests that friendship.

As far as the characters have been written during Apocalypse, Cyclops has only known Jean for a day or two, if at that. She's known Mystique for a few hours, up to a day. So you saying "As far as how she's written Storm was not on the X-men team during Apocalypse" has no bearing on this whatsoever.

I don't even know what in Emma Frost's Hellfire Club that last part was even trying to say...

It was simply to point out that this franchise has never cared for ages. Why should they take into account Storm's and Jean's now?

But I see what you did there. You wanted to cuss at someone who disagrees with you, using "what in Emma Frost's Hellfire Club" covertly...Hmmm....

No, that's not her trajectory, that's her team affiliation at the end of the film.

Her character arc's trajectory was gradually fully accepting that she was a mutant, not rejecting it at all, and to embrace her abilities. It was a story of empowerment for her.

And where does DAYS OF FUTURE PAST pick up? With Mystique continuing Magneto's war against humanity after the Brotherhood has been killed/disbanded/imprisoned. Clearly headed in a similar direction to her character's trajectory at the end of FIRST CLASS.

It absolutely does. APOCALYPSE opens up with Mystique no longer attacking humanity and undermining mutant/human relations, but now serving as a covert mutant freedom fighter, more concerned with rescuing mutants who are being mistreated. She's now moving back toward Xavier's goals and vision as the film progresses. Reluctantly, but that's her character arc.

That's because she gradually changes her mind about a militant approach with the young X-Men, about them using their powers to fight for their cause. It's literally her character arc. That's why her serving as their drill instructor at the end of significant. It represents the shift in her ideology that took place over the film.

She's not necessarily responsible...but she is experienced compared to the others. She seems willing to risk lives and exposure for the greater good.

And what else are we going to see in DARK PHOENIX? What's been talked about, in terms of the trajectory of the team itself? A more public X-Men. Which is what she was initially rejecting at the outset of APOCALYPSE. Gradually moving toward Xavier's vision.

So you spend 7 paragraphs trying to school me, saying that Mystique, in the prequel films, had this beautifully written trajectory, one film ending and another film beginning with this really masterful journey of this young woman.

This is reductionist. Many characters in the X-Men universe have switched sides. It's the nature of the gray areas involved in the ongoing mutant/human conflict, and a classic element of the X-Men mythology, moreso than perhaps any other superhero mythology.

Mystique's arc in the prequel films may not be comic book accurate, but it has been well drawn, well developed, and fairly consistent in its exploration of a character learning to balance her militant tendencies for the greater good.

And then say "So she Flip Flops? So what?"

 

[Jh7058622]

You know you can use the word Hell here without it even being censored right? Why are you so paranoid? I was just being my normal lovable rascally self nothing to take so seriously.

And how do you know anything about how Storm and Jean's relationship will be have you seen the movie already?

Also yes she was 30 or at least 29 in fact from Chris Claremont she is 6 years older than Jean (1950 birth year) and Jean again verified info from the comics (her tombstone reads 1956-1980) when she dies during TDPS making her 23-24 and Storm 29-30 years old. So what else do you want to be proven wrong about today?

 

[carpenter82]

View attachment 22269 Out of topic but I Already saw CM i was really hyped by the movie that i created a Fan Art for it!!! I dont like it so flat,boring and predictable.Anyways here’s my fan art.

Very good work. I'm sure the people at the Captain Marvel thread would like it as well.
Captain Marvel General Discussion and Speculation - Part 9

 

[psylockolussus]

View attachment 22269 Out of topic but I Already saw CM i was really hyped by the movie that i created a Fan Art for it!!! I dont like it so flat,boring and predictable.Anyways here’s my fan art.

Wow your fan art looks amazing!

Though if you want to complain about Captain Marvel, do it in the Captain Marvel threads, not here.

 

[carpenter82]

A Twitter user posted a thread comparing the trailer to the comic.

 

[marvintabacon]

Wow your fan art looks amazing!

Though if you want to complain about Captain Marvel, do it in the Captain Marvel threads, not here.

Sorry

 

[EnDz0n3]

Also yes she was 30 or at least 29 in fact from Chris Claremont she is 6 years older than Jean (1950 birth year) and Jean again verified info from the comics (her tombstone reads 1956-1980) when she dies during TDPS making her 23-24 and Storm 29-30 years old.

No you clearly said Ororo was in her early 30s when Storm was introduced (also when she first met Jean).
You: "Storm was more like early 30s..."
And you also clearly said Jean was 23ish when Jean and Storm first met (also when Storm was introduced):
You: "...and Jean was...going into her mid 20s like 23ish. when they first met so no."

If we are to follow that tombstone with Jean's birth year being 1956 and death 1980 and do comic book ages that way (many would argue that would be the wrong way to calculate comic book ages), then yes Jean was 24 when she died. Ororo presumably born late 1950-early 1951 (she was 6 months old in 1951), and was introduced in 1975, and calculating comic book ages the same way, then no Storm was not "early 30s" in Giant Size X-men #1.

So back to Dark Phoenix, Storm is around 5 years older than Jean in the comics. Sophie is 23 today (I misquoted the wrong age: 24) and Alexandra will be 28 later this year. So the five year gap between the two actresses matches with the same 5 year gap between the comic book characters. Tell me again why the latter can't be the big sis figure to the former?

So what else do you want to be proven wrong about today?

Have a good day sir.

 

[Charzhin0]

I hope there is a dark phoenix trailer in my capmarvel screening tomorrow, particularly the international version. Really wana see it on a IMAX screen

And as someone alluded to before, I too have a strong feeling theyve scrapped the aliens from the final fight. No doubt we should have had a clear shot of them in either of the 2 latest trailers by now but nothing. I think the the third act will be the train rescue sequence and 4 way fight of Chastain vs Jean vs Xmen vs MCU (mutant control unit).

 

[GuestStar2004]

I think the the third act will be the train rescue sequence and 4 way fight of Chastain vs Jean vs Xmen vs MCU (mutant control unit).

Well chastains character is an alien.

Spoiler

chastains characters has her own army with her during the train sequence (one of them is ripping off train door). Or at least thats what people in the know here have said.

 

[Mutant 77]

So back to Dark Phoenix, Storm is around 5 years older than Jean in the comics. Sophie is 23 today (I misquoted the wrong age: 24) and Alexandra will be 28 later this year. So the five year gap between the two actresses matches with the same 5 year gap between the comic book characters. Tell me again why the latter can't be the big sis figure to the former?

Have a good day sir.

Well, IN TRUTH:

We've already seen Little Ororo Munroe in "First Class" - 1962. I assume she was 3 years old, no less no more for the sake of continuity. We can pretend that she looked slightly older than her real age on the Cerebro sequence.

So in the third timeline she was born in 1959, which would make her 24 years old in "Apocalypse" and 33 years old in "Dark Phoenix".
This would also mean that she was 64 years old at the very end of DOFP. Cinematic mutants age slower and better than humans.

In the first timeline, Ororo was born much later... the "X-Men Origins" deleted scene is canon to me.
That sequence in Africa is set in 1977.

 

[psyonic]

Slightly different trailer with

Spoiler

Chastain and Jean fighting in the fire

Previous version doesn't have it.