Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix News and Speculation Thread - - - - - - Part 15

[Hand Banana]

Hoult's 'Beast' became very stale because of that human face. He should have accepted himself and stayed blue so we could move on to new stories with him. We got trapped in the prequel place, which would have been annoying on its own, but we were also jumping decades between films and giving him absolutely no life to speak of.

That said, Dark Phoenix threw him under the bus more than any other. He sought out Magneto to murder Jean in revenge. And then winds up the head-teacher of a school named after her. Kinberg is such a horrible writer.

Yeah, I prefer the original ending with the X-Men disbanded and Xavier shut down the whole. Very emotional ending with Chuck mourning Raven.

But I guess it had to end with a happy ending.

 

[Batmannerism]

Interesting that you said that because I came across this very interesting video comparison. If you pretend that the aliens are the Hellfire Club, it’s not a bad adaptation of the Black Queen arc of the saga at all.



This movie definitely didn’t deserve the hate it got.

Actually, IMHO that comparison makes it worse. The Hellfire Club, with their lingere and 18th century cosplay, were a bit risque, but very human and very dangerous - especially Shaw.

That storyline was intimately involved in Jean's development as Phoenix, and her relationship with Scott - given that we've not had any of these properly established in the film, well the Hellfire Club angle doesn't seem anywhere near as significant.

Honestly, the aliens were one of the weakest parts of a weak plot - and having them with very little personality kind of worked, because their job was to help resolve the final conflict without taking too much time away from the main characters - I think if you had made them a little more interesting it would have actually exposed how paper thin Sophie Turner's Jean was, and she's the central character.

So, I maintain it's a better adaptation than Last Stand - because at least it makes Jean its focus, and has the cosmic angle.

The 2 parter would have worked so much better - with the final showdown with the Imperial guard as the finale, that could have been glorious.

However, IMO the reason the comic story is so compelling is because even reading it in 1980, you have had years of these characters working and living and fighting together as a de facto family. Jean Grey and Scott Summers are people you really care about, so to see their relationship fractured and Jean's corruption and death....well it's very emotional.

In the films, there's never been the time taken to establish the characters well enough to make us care about them - and the performances don't help either, let's be honest Sophie Turner just isn't that good an actress. In the end the series really revolves around Charles and Erik, but neither of them are central to the Dark Phoenix saga, so while we know them as characters, the ones that are actually important to the story still seem largely cardboard cutouts.

Still, I feel this this film has copped way more hate than it deserved.

 

[Hand Banana]

Actually, IMHO that comparison makes it worse. The Hellfire Club, with their lingere and 18th century cosplay, were a bit risque, but very human and very dangerous - especially Shaw.

That storyline was intimately involved in Jean's development as Phoenix, and her relationship with Scott - given that we've not had any of these properly established in the film, well the Hellfire Club angle doesn't seem anywhere near as significant.

Honestly, the aliens were one of the weakest parts of a weak plot - and having them with very little personality kind of worked, because their job was to help resolve the final conflict without taking too much time away from the main characters - I think if you had made them a little more interesting it would have actually exposed how paper thin Sophie Turner's Jean was, and she's the central character.

So, I maintain it's a better adaptation than Last Stand - because at least it makes Jean its focus, and has the cosmic angle.

The 2 parter would have worked so much better - with the final showdown with the Imperial guard as the finale, that could have been glorious.

However, IMO the reason the comic story is so compelling is because even reading it in 1980, you have had years of these characters working and living and fighting together as a de facto family. Jean Grey and Scott Summers are people you really care about, so to see their relationship fractured and Jean's corruption and death....well it's very emotional.

In the films, there's never been the time taken to establish the characters well enough to make us care about them - and the performances don't help either, let's be honest Sophie Turner just isn't that good an actress. In the end the series really revolves around Charles and Erik, but neither of them are central to the Dark Phoenix saga, so while we know them as characters, the ones that are actually important to the story still seem largely cardboard cutouts.

Still, I feel this this film has copped way more hate than it deserved.

I wouldn’t call Jean paper thin. They try to make her relatable with her struggle with the unresolved trauma of being responsible for her mother’s death and she displays a lot of the common emotional responses to a traumatic event (shame/self-loath, fear/anxiety, and anger/irritability). It is an element they adapted from her origin story in the comics.

For example, at the start of the movie during Jean’s exchange with Xavier you can tell that she is deeply ashamed of herself and afraid of her power. Thinking that she is weird, crazy, broken who needs to be fixed and fears that she will break things again. And Jean’s fear of her power is consistent around the movie. Later on in the movie she even says that her father was right to abandon her, showing she is a very self-loathing person.

And of course, she is irritable and has uncontrollable anger issues with her lashing out at others. There are people who suffer from PTSD who are like that.



Prior to release, the cast and crew had on multiple occasions that wanted to tell a relatable story about some struggling with their mental health and that they did their research on it. And it doesn’t seem like they were bluffing because I found a couple of articles by therapist that stated they did that well.

Dark Phoenix is an Eye-Opening Lesson in What PTSD is Like For Women, and Why That Matters

Dark Phoenix: How to Ruin Your Relationship Faster than a Speeding…Nightcrawler? - Roslyn Ashford

WandaVision is basically everything this movie wanted to be. It wanted generated discussions on mental health and that show did that. However, most people seem to have thought she was possessed due to the portrayal of the 90s cartoons based on the reviews I’ve seen. Shame.

 

[Batmannerism]

I wouldn’t call Jean paper thin. They try to make her relatable with her struggle with the unresolved trauma of being responsible for her mother’s death and she displays a lot of the common emotional responses to a traumatic event (shame/self-loath, fear/anxiety, and anger/irritability). It is an element they adapted from her origin story in the comics.

For example, at the start of the movie during Jean’s exchange with Xavier you can tell that she is deeply ashamed of herself and afraid of her power. Thinking that she is weird, crazy, broken who needs to be fixed and fears that she will break things again. And Jean’s fear of her power is consistent around the movie. Later on in the movie she even says that her father was right to abandon her, showing she is a very self-loathing person.

And of course, she is irritable and has uncontrollable anger issues with her lashing out at others. There are people who suffer from PTSD who are like that.



Prior to release, the cast and crew had on multiple occasions that wanted to tell a relatable story about some struggling with their mental health and that they did their research on it. And it doesn’t seem like they were bluffing because I found a couple of articles by therapist that stated they did that well.

Dark Phoenix is an Eye-Opening Lesson in What PTSD is Like For Women, and Why That Matters

Dark Phoenix: How to Ruin Your Relationship Faster than a Speeding…Nightcrawler? - Roslyn Ashford

WandaVision is basically everything this movie wanted to be. It wanted generated discussions on mental health and that show did that. However, most people seem to have thought she was possessed due to the portrayal of the 90s cartoons based on the reviews I’ve seen. Shame.

Well that makes me think of three things:

1) the original story was so well written that Jean didn't need PTSD or childhood trauma to be a part of her makeup in order to explain anything that happened.

Because she felt like a real person we actually relate to her. The original story was about the triumph of Jean's humanity over her emerging godhood. Her sacrifice at the end is what really gives the story its punch.

The fact that DP needed to rely on such a character/plot element as ptsd suggests that the character didn't have much else going for her - which means they didn't really understand the original comic book character or the story. Not a good start.

If their starting position was " Let's tell an important story about mental health. Say why not use Dark Phoenix, we just need to change it a bit?" Then I'm surprised it wasn't a lot worse.

2) Having a PTSD element in a script relies on having an actor who can portray it effectively. This film did not.

Similarly, in the comic Scott Summers is Jean's tether to humanity, so he has to be a relatable character. In the film he was played by a plank of wood, which didn't help.

3) Well, after I go see a comic book movie about a mutant who becomes cosmically empowered, kills a friend and eventually destroys evil aliens who are out to harness her power and wipe out humanity there's nothing I find more satisfying than to hear it started important conversations about ptsd.....wtf ?

Are you kidding ? This is escapist comic book stuff of the first order.

Maybe important conversations about ptsd should follow on from real stories of actual people who have struggled with it instead of comic book films about mutants and cosmic forces.

Part of the reason Dark Phoenix is a timeless classic comic book story is because it tells a story we can relate to because of the humanity of the characters. The problem with some of today's comics and newer CBMs is that they try to use issues as the basis and overlay the story.

If you like that, more power to you.

Me, if I want to know about issues such as mental health or ptsd I'll watch a documentary, if I want an entertaining and emotional story about relatable characters I'll read a great comic like Dark Phoenix.

Seems like, given the reception this film received, one of those is more widely successful, who knew ?

 

[Hand Banana]

Well that makes me think of three things:

1) the original story was so well written that Jean didn't need PTSD or childhood trauma to be a part of her makeup in order to explain anything that happened.

Because she felt like a real person we actually relate to her. The original story was about the triumph of Jean's humanity over her emerging godhood. Her sacrifice at the end is what really gives the story its punch.

The fact that DP needed to rely on such a character/plot element as ptsd suggests that the character didn't have much else going for her - which means they didn't really understand the original comic book character or the story. Not a good start.

If their starting position was " Let's tell an important story about mental health. Say why not use Dark Phoenix, we just need to change it a bit?" Then I'm surprised it wasn't a lot worse.

2) Having a PTSD element in a script relies on having an actor who can portray it effectively. This film did not.

Similarly, in the comic Scott Summers is Jean's tether to humanity, so he has to be a relatable character. In the film he was played by a plank of wood, which didn't help.

3) Well, after I go see a comic book movie about a mutant who becomes cosmically empowered, kills a friend and eventually destroys evil aliens who are out to harness her power and wipe out humanity there's nothing I find more satisfying than to hear it started important conversations about ptsd.....wtf ?

Are you kidding ? This is escapist comic book stuff of the first order.

Maybe important conversations about ptsd should follow on from real stories of actual people who have struggled with it instead of comic book films about mutants and cosmic forces.

Part of the reason Dark Phoenix is a timeless classic comic book story is because it tells a story we can relate to because of the humanity of the characters. The problem with some of today's comics and newer CBMs is that they try to use issues as the basis and overlay the story.

If you like that, more power to you.

Me, if I want to know about issues such as mental health or ptsd I'll watch a documentary, if I want an entertaining and emotional story about relatable characters I'll read a great comic like Dark Phoenix.

Seems like, given the reception this film received, one of those is more widely successful, who knew ?

Well the Dark Phoenix Saga was about Jean slowly becoming addicted to her power which was acted like a drug and that is essentially what defines the Dark Phoenix.

And addiction is considered a mental health disorder. That was actually an element in the movie at one point, which was one of things that was cut from the final production in response to the merger. I guess ending the film with Jean essentially becoming a drug addict wouldn’t make for a good finale for the series. The cast and crew talked about it before it was released and there are even clips with Jean stating that unleashing power feels good.

Dark Phoenix May Be An Allegory For Addiction & Its Fallout

But trauma did play a role in Jean’s descent into the Dark Phoenix. Like the video I posted mentioned, Jean had a mental breakdown after she “killed” the X-Men and that is what lead to her getting manipulated by Mastermind.

Then after founding out she was manipulated she was full of pain and sadness.

She craved a rapture to ease that pain that only her power would provide her and sought out the ultimate sensation like a drug addict.

I see the Dark Phoenix Saga as a metaphor for the link between trauma and addiction.
X-Men often explore political themes like bigotry. Telling relatable stories about real world struggles. The Dark Phoenix Saga does the same thing but with psychological themes.

Sometimes, those who experience trauma get stuck in a loop, unable to move past or process what has happened. This can lead to a severe mental health disorder called Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). While this condition is commonly associated with veterans returning from war or combat, the same physiological fight-or-flight responses occur in people who experience childhood trauma. Some people may turn to drugs or alcohol to self-medicate and mask their feelings.

Why Trauma Often Leads to Addiction | Gateway


Now for Sophie Turners’ performance, yeah. Simon Kinberg in the behind the scenes content even said that if her performance doesn’t work, the movie doesn’t work. Now her performance overall worked for me, but I understand that is subjective. If you think she didn’t work, cool.

 

[Batmannerism]

Well the Dark Phoenix Saga was about Jean slowly becoming addicted to her power which was acted like a drug and that is essentially what defines the Dark Phoenix.

And addiction is considered a mental health disorder. That was actually an element in the movie at one point, which was one of things that was cut from the final production in response to the merger. I guess ending the film with Jean essentially becoming a drug addict wouldn’t make for a good finale for the series. The cast and crew talked about it before it was released and there are even clips with Jean stating that unleashing power feels good.

Dark Phoenix May Be An Allegory For Addiction & Its Fallout

But trauma did play a role in Jean’s descent into the Dark Phoenix. Like the video I posted mentioned, Jean had a mental breakdown after she “killed” the X-Men and that is what lead to her getting manipulated by Mastermind.

Then after founding out she was manipulated she was full of pain and sadness.

She craved a rapture to ease that pain that only her power would provide her and sought out the ultimate sensation like a drug addict.

I see the Dark Phoenix Saga as a metaphor for the link between trauma and addiction.
X-Men often explore political themes like bigotry. Telling relatable stories about real world struggles. The Dark Phoenix Saga does the same thing but with psychological themes.




Why Trauma Often Leads to Addiction | Gateway


Now for Sophie Turners’ performance, yeah. Simon Kinberg in the behind the scenes content even said that if her performance doesn’t work, the movie doesn’t work. Now her performance overall worked for me, but I understand that is subjective. If you think she didn’t work, cool.

Yeah, whatever works for you. If you want to read all that into the story, great.

You might want to go back and read the original series though.

I might suggest to you that it's not about addiction, it's about the release of inhibition and corruption that comes with power. What Mastermind does is provide Jean with a tempting fantasy world where she can give in to her darker impulses, and he's her secret lover - which the Hellfire club will use to control her. The results are disastrous - Jean destroys an entire solar system.

The Phoenix force itself is really the villain, as its corrupting influence overtakes Jean - if you want to see that as a drug metaphor go for it.

Of course the drug analogy falls down a bit when Jean commits suicide at the end of the story, so that she doesn't give into the power of the Phoenix and roam the universe destroying suns.

That image you posted of Mastermind isn't from the original saga - because John Byrne drew the whole thing, and that ain't him.

At no point during the comic saga does Jean kill the Xmen. At one point she thinks Cyclops has been killed by Mastermind in a psychic duel, but otherwise, none of the Xmen die.

 

[Hand Banana]

Yeah, whatever works for you. If you want to read all that into the story, great.

You might want to go back and read the original series though.

I might suggest to you that it's not about addiction, it's about the release of inhibition and corruption that comes with power. What Mastermind does is provide Jean with a tempting fantasy world where she can give in to her darker impulses, and he's her secret lover - which the Hellfire club will use to control her. The results are disastrous - Jean destroys an entire solar system.

The Phoenix force itself is really the villain, as its corrupting influence overtakes Jean - if you want to see that as a drug metaphor go for it.

Of course the drug analogy falls down a bit when Jean commits suicide at the end of the story, so that she doesn't give into the power of the Phoenix and roam the universe destroying suns.

That image you posted of Mastermind isn't from the original saga - because John Byrne drew the whole thing, and that ain't him.

At no point during the comic saga does Jean kill the Xmen. At one point she thinks Cyclops has been killed by Mastermind in a psychic duel, but otherwise, none of the Xmen die.

I know she doesn’t actually kill the X-Men. That is why I said “killed”. I’m referring to when she accidentally destroyed Magneto’s lair and the X-Men seemly died. This happened around Uncanny X-Men #114.

I think it is all of the above.

 

[Batmannerism]

I know she doesn’t actually kill the X-Men. That is why I said “killed”. I’m referring to when she accidentally destroyed Magneto’s lair and the X-Men seemly died. This happened around Uncanny X-Men #114.

I think it is all of the above.

In XMen 113, after being captured by Magneto and held prisoner in his secret base ( inside a volcano) during a pitched battle Phoenix blasts Magneto across the room and he slams into the console that controls the systems that keep the lava out.

Anyway, Phoenix and Beast blast their way free, and think that the other Xmen are dead. They reunite in issue 125-126.

At no point that I can find, and I've just re-read 113 -121, does Phoenix believe that she killed the XMen. In fact she doesn't really show much of a breakdown either, ( she barely appears in issues 114 - 124, although they do start setting up Dark Phoenix with the appearance of Jason Wyngarde, because real storytellers know that you need to lay the groundwork for a character change to have an impact).

Why not stick with your mental health explanation?
It seems to work for you. Just because I see things differently doesn't mean you can't have your own opinion, the world is big enough for both our points of view.

Cheers.

 

[Hand Banana]

In XMen 113, after being captured by Magneto and held prisoner in his secret base ( inside a volcano) during a pitched battle Phoenix blasts Magneto across the room and he slams into the console that controls the systems that keep the lava out.

Anyway, Phoenix and Beast blast their way free, and think that the other Xmen are dead. They reunite in issue 125-126.

At no point that I can find, and I've just re-read 113 -121, does Phoenix believe that she killed the XMen. In fact she doesn't really show much of a breakdown either, ( she barely appears in issues 114 - 124, although they do start setting up Dark Phoenix with the appearance of Jason Wyngarde, because real storytellers know that you need to lay the groundwork for a character change to have an impact).

Why not stick with your mental health explanation?
It seems to work for you. Just because I see things differently doesn't mean you can't have your own opinion, the world is big enough for both our points of view.

Cheers.

It is in the Classic X-Men issues.

Jean’s entire situation is based on The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Dr. Hyde, which does still deal with addiction, split personalities, dark impulses, etc. I don’t really feel like making an in-depth comparison.

 

[Batmannerism]

It is in the Classic X-Men issues.

Jean’s entire situation is based on The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Dr. Hyde, which does still deal with addiction, split personalities, dark impulses, etc. I don’t really feel like making an in-depth comparison.

So called "Classic XMen" is a combination of a reprinting of the original comic with a second story, which is often related, but was written many years later on.

I'm sure you're completely right about the Dr Jekyll thing which if I remember correctly also involved, as key story elements, love triangles, psychic links, godlike cosmic forces, evil secret societies, aliens and existential threats to the universe.
I'm amazed more people don't get the two stories confused.

Just let it go man, you see the story one way and I see it another. Do what works for you. Peace!

 

[DawnWarrior]

With 'Scenes from a Marriage' coming up, reuniting Oscar Isaac and Jessica Chastain, it occurred to me that they both played half-baked villains in back-to-back X-Men movies. Which is a shame, wasting great talent like that.

I'm in the camp that has imagined a better version of 'Dark Phoenix' that ditches the aliens and brings back the Hellfire Club as the bad guys, with perhaps Chastain in the role of Selene the Black Queen. To that I'd like to add another mod: Take Isaac out of the Apocalypse suit and put him into this movie as Jason 'Mastermind' Wynegard, which is more his speed. That lets him grow his beard out again, which is another plus.

 

[Erik Lensherr]

 

[MasterBoss]

The real tragedy is Kinberg will feel none of the effects of this because of how incestuous Hollywood is.

X-Men’ Producer Simon Kinberg Buys $15.5 Million Brentwood Estate, Sells Hollywood Hills Mansion at Major Loss

Simon Kinberg Bought a $15.5 Million Los Angeles House – DIRT