Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix News and Speculation Thread - - - - - - Part 15

[Jh7058622]

I remember someone, probably Laura Shuler Donner, saying in an interview that the only reason Beast and Mystique were picked out of the OT roster to join Erik and Charles in First Class is because it was impossible to determine their respective ages due to their mutation.

In retrospect, their selection was unnecessary. None of the characters in the FC series age, and both spend the majority of their time presenting as normies.

Didn't they have to use de-aging vfx in the latest trailer on McAvoy? I know what you're suggesting but yeah Halle and Famake can still pass for 30 to so having good genetics might be their mutation. Only real issues I have with "aging" is Michael Fassbender's hair not being silver. It seems strange he wouldn't at least have that by now also give him a bit more girth around the waistline. Macavoy does look a bit older imo though.

 

[psyonic]

Speaking of Mystique and vfx, any chance they'll fix her blue photo filter make up? She looks like they applied the forehead scales and then used a blue photo filter on her unpainted skin in post production. Her eyes aren't even yellow anymore but a tinge of beige..

 

[Jh7058622]

Yeah the house scene was clearly unfinished vfx shot for her because she looked good in the space mission.

 

[Charzhin0]

You can't say its Vaughns fault for whats happening now. Mistiques character is very competently done over FC and DOFP, imo its the most fleshed out female story arc in any comic book movie, pinnacle of a strong independent woman.

But that should have been it. She shouldn't have appeared in Apocalypse and certainly not in Dark Phoenix. Thematically her character was complete, as she says in DOFP to Alex "im on my own now". Theatrically, her presence was not popular with the fans. Vaughn is not to blame, if anyone its Singer/Kinberg, whoever wrote that silly ending to DOFP to have Stryker turn into Mistique after she captures Logan on the boat which made no sense. Trying to force her into the next chapter .

 

[ciscostudent561]

You can't say its Vaughns fault for whats happening now. Mistiques character is very competently done over FC and DOFP, imo its the most fleshed out female story arc in any comic book movie, pinnacle of a strong independent woman.

But that should have been it. She shouldn't have appeared in Apocalypse and certainly not in Dark Phoenix. Thematically her character was complete, as she says in DOFP to Alex "im on my own now". Theatrically, her presence was not popular with the fans. Vaughn is not to blame, if anyone its Singer/Kinberg, whoever wrote that silly ending to DOFP to have Stryker turn into Mistique after she captures Logan on the boat which made no sense. Trying to force her into the next chapter .

I see your point but he still coulda just left her out after Apocalypse with no mention. Weirded things have happened in comics, idk, id honestly rather not get into the whole katniss debate. we dont want her in the film, shes in it. time to get over it.

 

[X-Maniac]

"While Fassbender and McAvoy have had their moments in the Fox movies, it’s hard to imagine other mutants who stand out in the way even minor Marvel figures such as Dave Bautista’s Drax the Destroyer do in the MCU. Perhaps the most underwritten Marvel superhero is Jeremy Renner’s fairly superfluous Hawkeye. (Sometimes X-Men movies seem to be populated entirely by Hawkeyes.)"

"Would the Disney-owned studio have stooped so low as to adapt the Dark Phoenix storyline for a second time, as Fox has done for Kinberg’s film? (It was also the basis of 2006’s X-Men: The Last Stand.) It seems unlikely, especially as the storyline of the good superhero turning bad has become something of a genre cliche. Last year’s Deadpool II even sent up the tired trope with its introduction of Julian Dennison’s Firefist/Russell Collins, a good-hearted young mutant who has been rendered evil due to repeated abuse by Eddie Marsan’s cruel school headmaster. Yet Fox seems to be playing the same old tune without a hint of irony in Dark Phoenix.

"Surely Marvel would have found a way to spin the comic book storyline so it played out more convincingly on the big screen, just as it did when loosely adapting Planet Hulk and Age of Ultron for Thor: Ragnarok and Avengers: Age of Ultron. Even if the studio had chosen to cleave closer to the original text, its strength in the cosmic realm beyond Earth’s borders would have made for a much more bombastic and far-out adaptation than we may get in Kinberg’s movie."

Source: Guardian UK article Marvel shouldn't rush to introduce the X-Men to its cinematic universe

Ain't that the truth!

 

[x-er]

You can't say its Vaughns fault for whats happening now. Mistiques character is very competently done over FC and DOFP, imo its the most fleshed out female story arc in any comic book movie, pinnacle of a strong independent woman.

But that should have been it. She shouldn't have appeared in Apocalypse and certainly not in Dark Phoenix. Thematically her character was complete, as she says in DOFP to Alex "im on my own now". Theatrically, her presence was not popular with the fans. Vaughn is not to blame, if anyone its Singer/Kinberg, whoever wrote that silly ending to DOFP to have Stryker turn into Mistique after she captures Logan on the boat which made no sense. Trying to force her into the next chapter .

The prequels were very forced. Leaving stuff to audiences' imagination is good. At least in between films.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Which is bull**** because they shoehorned in Mystique's relationship with Xavier that has never been alluded to in the OT, did they hit each other on the head at the same time and suffered amnesia? Apparently not because we never saw that in the prequels!

They probably thought it was ok since Xavier and Mystique never actually are in the same room in the OT or share screentime.

DOFP was the splitting point that was meant to change her into that OT character.

 

[GuestStar2004]

You can't say its Vaughns fault for whats happening now. Mistiques character is very competently done over FC and DOFP, imo its the most fleshed out female story arc in any comic book movie, pinnacle of a strong independent woman.
.

Its both Bryan Singer and Vaughn's fault. It was Singers idea to make mystique that way for FC and Vaughn structured it being the director.. same but opposite with DOFP.

The reason why they made stryker Mystique wasn't to make sure she needed to be there. it was because Singer felt teasing Weapon X wasn't a surprising ending and at least minute added the yellow eyes... thats pretty much it. all it was.

Interesting enough though there is an interview around back in 2014 where Singer says he noticed in screenings that a large segment of the female audience responded well to Xaviers relationship with Raven

But all that character focus doesn’t stand in the way of action, and “tragedy.” In fact, the balanced presentation of the film has had a specific positive effect in early screenings on one large segment of the audience: women. “We’ve noticed that women have responded well. More so than I’ve ever seen in an X-Men film that I’ve been involved with. I think it’s down to the emotional core of James McAvoy’s character’s journey. I think it has to do with his relationship with Raven.”

I think alot of this stuff gets taken for granted because its not the reasoning what people wanna hear or think.

 

[Mutant 77]

They probably thought it was ok since Xavier and Mystique never actually are in the same room in the OT or share screentime.

DOFP was the splitting point that was meant to change her into that OT character.

Mystique and Xavier/Professor X have no relationship in the original trilogy for a reason: timeline has been altered.

According to my scenario:

Sebastian Shaw (Kevin Bacon) was a time traveler. He was born several years after the events of "The Last Stand", in the original timeline (X-Men Origins: Wolverine; X-Men; X2; The Last Stand).

At a certain point, when he was 50 or so, he traveled back to 1912 A.C. and impacted the timeline over the years in various ways... until creating the Hellfire Club.
He also changed Magneto's life in 1944.

The events of "First Class" were deeply caused by him, as well as having many birthdays shifting in time and characters being born later or before (Angel, Jean Grey).
I guess he influenced many powerful people over the decades, impacting their lives - Warren Worthington II (Angel's father) was among them.

FC Moira was the grandmother of LS Moira, as simple as that.

Emma Frost was already existing. Maybe, in the original timeline, Emma Silverfox was a clone of her who was adopted by Kayla's family (that's it).


So in the end, we got the second timeline:

1962- First Class
1963- Magneto is arrested
1973- Mystique kills Bolivar Trask
1983- Alternate version of "X-Men Origins"
2000- Alternate version of "X-Men" and "X2"
2001- Alternate version of "The Last Stand"
2008- The Wolverine
2023- Post-apocalyptic future of "Days of Future Past"

 

[Charzhin0]

Its both Bryan Singer and Vaughn's fault. It was Singers idea to make mystique that way for FC and Vaughn structured it being the director.. same but opposite with DOFP.

Mistiques addition in FC and DOFP was fine from a story POV. But once her arc ended in DOFP there was no need to hire her back and I was pointing out that Vaughn isnt to blame for Singer/kinbergs/Foxs decision to take her on for a threequel. Same can be said for Stryker and possibly Magneto.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Mistiques addition in FC and DOFP was fine from a story POV. But once her arc ended in DOFP there was no need to hire her back and I was pointing out that Vaughn isnt to blame for Singer/kinbergs/Foxs decision to take her on for a threequel. Same can be said for Stryker and possibly Magneto.

But really there is no need not to either. they can bring her back because why should they not?

They always said they make these movies as if they were the last movie... they don't think ahead in that yeah we might bring them back in the 8th movie since they never know what will happen.its just how it is. its all continuing onwards with these characters.

Its also that assumption that Singer and Kinberg would do something that no other director would do... and maybe thats wrong logic thats assumed here. Vaughn wanted to make all the future sentinels look like Mystique which we can go nuts about that and then turn against him too, but its what these film makers do, there is no creative bias, its just a continued story.

 

[x-er]

I liked the way they jumped from First Class to Days of Future Past and gave us something that did feel like a decade later (characters gone, the mansion nearly uninhabited, contact with a dystopian future).

From Days of Future Past to the next film, it doesn't feel like the core cast has gone through a lot. Mystique going missing would've been great. Maybe follow up with Brotherhood vs. X-Men and a Mystique solo ft. Deadpool or something like that. but Apocalypse should've gone to X5.

 

[Zarex]

I liked the way they jumped from First Class to Days of Future Past and gave us something that did feel like a decade later (characters gone, the mansion nearly uninhabited, contact with a dystopian future).

From Days of Future Past to the next film, it doesn't feel like the core cast has gone through a lot. Mystique going missing would've been great.

A "real time" three year jump would have been sufficient to explain the changes that occurred after Magneto left the beach. I don't think the decade leaps between films have been the least bit beneficial to the franchise.

 

[x-er]

I agree. The whole point of that was to sort of weave mutantkind into world history. Wonder where that went after days of future past

 

[Mutant 77]

A "real time" three year jump would have been sufficient to explain the changes that occurred after Magneto left the beach. I don't think the decade leaps between films have been the least bit beneficial to the franchise.

Not true. It was very fascinating and one of the best aspects of the saga.

 

[Zarex]

Not true. It was very fascinating and one of the best aspects of the saga.

Counterpoint - Yes, it is true. The leaps have been completely useless, momentum killing, and totally illogical given that the characters don't age and not much seems to happen in the decade long spans of dead time. The whole purpose of the leaps was to get back to the 90s and bring back recasted versions of Scott, Storm and Jean. But the series could have done it anyway given that OT characters like Psylocke and Angel don't adhere to the OT continuity. The First Class series would have been much better served by staying in the 60s.

 

[Mutant 77]

Counterpoint - Yes, it is true. The leaps have been completely useless

Nobody is interested into having the X-Men set in the '60s, quite frankly. DOFP was set in 1973 and totally captured the spirit of that time.
I'm fine with the classic and popular X-Men (re)forming in 1983, after 10 years since the events of DOFP and for a good cause... great storytelling arc.
The team reformed by chance, in order to rescue Xavier. I loved that.
It wasn't about "momentum". It was about "development". And it worked on a perfect and fine way.

 

[Zarex]

Nobody is interested into having the X-Men set in the '60s, quite frankly. DOFP was set in 1973 and totally captured the spirit of that time.
I'm fine with the classic and popular X-Men (re)forming in 1983, after 10 years since the events of DOFP and for a good cause... great storytelling arc.
The team reformed by chance, in order to rescue Xavier. I loved that.
It wasn't about "momentum". It was about "development". And it worked on a perfect and fine way.

Speaking from someone who was alive at that time - no, it didn't.

 

[carpenter82]

Speaking from someone who was alive at that time - no, it didn't.

It had a lava lamp. Good enough for me.

 

[carpenter82]

You can't say its Vaughns fault for whats happening now. Mistiques character is very competently done over FC and DOFP, imo its the most fleshed out female story arc in any comic book movie, pinnacle of a strong independent woman.

But that should have been it. She shouldn't have appeared in Apocalypse and certainly not in Dark Phoenix. Thematically her character was complete, as she says in DOFP to Alex "im on my own now". Theatrically, her presence was not popular with the fans. Vaughn is not to blame, if anyone its Singer/Kinberg, whoever wrote that silly ending to DOFP to have Stryker turn into Mistique after she captures Logan on the boat which made no sense. Trying to force her into the next chapter .

Agree, and Disagree. For all the flack Mystique gets in Apocalypse, mainly due to Lawrence's performance, I thought that seemed like the logical conclusion for this version of the character.

Her dropping the gun in DOFP is the character starting to inch back to Charles' ideologies rather than Eric's. Xavier also keeps trying to force Mystique to come back home in DOFP, and she eventually does come back via her own free will in Apocalypse. At the end Charles even says "there's going to be a time, Hank, where we are all together." We see that statement come to fruition at the end of Apocalypse. Where Apocalypse took Xavier, Magneto, and Mystique seemed appropriate as far as concluding their arcs imo.

I agree with what you said earlier as well. In terms of handling a female characters arc over multiple films I can't think of another comic book movie series that's done as good a job with that as the First Class films. For all the talk that everyone else does about female inclusion, and having a strong female character I don't think they quite nail the characters journey. This is a series that has given us a female character with understandable motivations, internal conflict, and compelling arcs in each individual film culminating in a muti-film arc. I support that 100%. Yes, it's different from the comics but if you can deviate from the source material and still make it work I have no problem with that.

I just find it funny that this is the character that people like to pick on. There are other female comic book movie characters out there right now that are paper thin, but nobody bats an eye. However, this one is the perverbial whipping boy. Usually when discussing this character people rarely bring up all the story elements that I just discussed. It all boils down to Jennifer Lawrence being in the role, or deviations from the comics which is frustrating.

 

[ciscostudent561]

I just find it funny that this is the character that people like to pick on. There are other female comic book movie characters out there right now that are paper thin, but nobody bats an eye. However, this one is the perverbial whipping boy. Usually when discussing this character people rarely bring up all the story elements that I just discussed. It all boils down to Jennifer Lawrence being in the role, or deviations from the comics which is frustrating.

sad, really.

 

[EnDz0n3]

People here need to remember there have been different versions of Storm though and this one seems more like Ultimate universe version. Jean and her are closer in age so Storm doesn't have that inherent wiser older sister feel like she did in the 616 comics. Which I don't mind but they really still need to get the friendship/sisterhood sold or it is a fail for the movie.

What people really need to remember are a few things:

(1) Sophie is 24, Alexandra is 27. Around the same age for both characters when Jean originally "died" in the comics. Yet, Storm is Earth Mother to the comic X-men. And if you wanna say that's not Storm yet, well neither is Mystique! Jean and Mystique spoke one time aboard the X-jet in Apocalypse. 10 years ago. And if you wanna say JLaw is older than both of them and so she can be maternal and AShipp can't...yea Lawrence 11 months older than Shipp. I guess that 11th month really changes a person. Jennifer should watch out, one month older and she'll be grandmotherly.

(2) Alexandra's Storm can be maternal and/or big sisterly to Sophie's Jean. If Kinberg wrote that onto his script. Jean has lived a sheltered life, seemingly shielded from the anti-mutant paranoia outside the mansion gates until the events of Apocalypse. Storm, on the other hand, has lived the hard life on the streets of Cairo, pickpocketing to help support young orphans. Would it be out of the realm of possibility that African, street urchin Ororo Munroe have a few life lessons that she can impart to All-American, picket fences Jean Grey? Besides you know who else is supposedly an orphan in this? Ms Grey. The script practically writes itself.

(3) And more importantly, in a franchise that has never cared to line up character ages from previous iterations, a franchise that has never cared to make Xavier and Magneto look like men in their 60s, or Beast look like a man in his 50s, or to show that Moira has aged 20 years since First Class, or that Lucas' Havok is supposedly 20 years older than Tye's Cyclops, you are going to let 2 other characters' ages get in the way of a better role for one, maybe both of them?

 

[Erik Lensherr]

 

[x-er]

Mystique should have been written away from both Charles' and Magneto's ideologies. In the comics she manipulates anybody to get what she wants. Why not write a badass supervillain? Maybe antihero? I think she could've paired up with Deadpool or somehow fooled him into working for her, but there are others she's paired up with before like Apocalypse, Sinister...