Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix News and Speculation Thread - - - - - - Part 15

[Drunken Rider]

This is page 616.

Very uncanny.

 

[EnDz0n3]

I already made an argument on why a younger generation of much bigger actors at the time would boost the box office more so than the old guard.

That’s probably what the studio was thinking but the First Class cast never turned that potential into Box Office Dollars.

First Class had a similar opening weekend and domestic total to a movie (X1) that came out 11 years prior, unadjusted for inflation. In 2000, X1’s $54Mil opening weekend was the biggest non-sequel opening of all time, second only to Mission: Impossible 2. In 2011, FC’s $55Mil had the industry asking if rebooting the X-men was a good idea.

In 2014, Apocalypse wasn’t able to capitalize on a stronger prior film (DOFP), unlike 2006’s X3 which leeched on to X2’s strong word of mouth and reception, with the audience awarding the franchise its first over $100Mil opening weekend with X3’s $102Mil and $122Mil for the long weekend. On a similar Memorial Day long weekend, even with DOFP’s pedigree, the FC cast’s Apocalypse could only muster up $79Mil, and only $65Mil for the 3-day weekend.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Unless you count Ryan Reynolds as being a part of this series.

Personally I don't. It would be like Levy's Shazam being part of the Snyder version of the DCEU. It just feels...Wrong

 

[Filmfreak]

That’s probably what the studio was thinking but the First Class cast never turned that potential into Box Office Dollars.

First Class had a similar opening weekend and domestic total to a movie (X1) that came out 11 years prior, unadjusted for inflation. In 2000, X1’s $54Mil opening weekend was the biggest non-sequel opening of all time, second only to Mission: Impossible 2. In 2011, FC’s $55Mil had the industry asking if rebooting the X-men was a good idea.

In 2014, Apocalypse wasn’t able to capitalize on a stronger prior film (DOFP), unlike 2006’s X3 which leached on to X2’s strong word of mouth, with the audience awarding the franchise its first over $100Mil opening weekend with X3’s $102Mil and $122Mil for the long weekend. On a similar Memorial Day long weekend, even with DOFP’s pedigree, the FC cast’s Apocalypse could only muster up $79Mil, and only $65Mil for the 3-day weekend.

You know well enough that the problem with the box office lied within the people behind the cameras, not the actual cast. If they weren't able to make bucks with that cast, it's highly unlikely they would (at that point) with the old X-Men.

I know the numbers and you're talking about a different time, with much much less competition and a franchise that was more fresh and innovative. Also you are talking about a time where actors in the original cast were far more relevant than in mid '10s. I'm talking about the decision to continue with the young cast after 2014 and how it would resonate with the audience. General audience, not fans. The ones who bring studios actual money.

You honestly think casting-wise that people didn't care enough for the likes of James MacAvoy, Michael Fassbender, Jennifer Lawrence and Sophie Turner at the pick of their careers but would care about Patrick Stewart, Anna Paquin, James Marsden and Halle Berry after so long? When was the last time any one of them was relevant in Hollywood?

Jackman could play with either team, like I said. He was in both timelines, appeared even briefly in every film and and had he choose to appear again, First Class would make much more sense financially. But since he wasn't, there is no point talking about an original trilogy movie sequel without him. That would have tanked even harder than Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix.

 

[Frankeh]

You know well enough that the problem with the box office lied within the people behind the cameras, not the actual cast. If they weren't able to make bucks with that cast, it's highly unlikely they would (at that point) with the old X-Men.

I know the numbers and you're talking about a different time, with much much less competition and a franchise that was more fresh and innovative. Also you are talking about a time where actors in the original cast were far more relevant than in mid '10s. I'm talking about the decision to continue with the young cast after 2014 and how it would resonate with the audience. General audience, not fans. The ones who bring studios actual money.

You honestly think casting-wise that people didn't care enough for the likes of James MacAvoy, Michael Fassbender, Jennifer Lawrence and Sophie Turner at the pick of their careers but would care about Patrick Stewart, Anna Paquin, James Marsden and Halle Berry after so long? When was the last time any one of them was relevant in Hollywood?

And you think Dark Phoenix did worse than the very first X-Men with these people at the pick of their careers because...?

Obviously it's a combination of factors, but the actors being the faces to sell the movie, it does not support your argument of it being a great choice to move full steam ahead with them, especially when the last one that did well was Days of Future Past, which included Original Cast.

 

[Filmfreak]

It wasn't a great choice or the best possible choice. It was the better choice out of these two. Simple as that.

 

[Detective Conan]

 

[Dark Raven]

43 minutes? That's the length of an entire TV episode!

 

[Filmfreak]

43 minutes? That's the length of an entire TV episode!

Or the extra minutes the Kinberg cut will have.

 

[EnDz0n3]

You know well enough that the problem with the box office lied within the people behind the cameras, not the actual cast. If they weren't able to make bucks with that cast, it's highly unlikely they would (at that point) with the old X-Men.

I know the numbers and you're talking about a different time, with much much less competition and a franchise that was more fresh and innovative. Also you are talking about a time where actors in the original cast were far more relevant than in mid '10s. I'm talking about the decision to continue with the young cast after 2014 and how it would resonate with the audience. General audience, not fans. The ones who bring studios actual money.

Then don’t say going with the FC cast is the better decision when there’s no evidence to support that.

Yes JLaw is arguably a bigger star than Romijn in 2014 (or any year really) but you can’t say with absolute certainly that McAvoy and Fassy are bigger stars than Stewart and McKellen in 2014. (The younger Storm, Cyclops and Nightcrawler wouldn’t have been cast if the franchise continued with the older cast but) Ditto Shipp, Sheridan, McPhee. They were not bigger stars than Berry, Marsden and Cumming. Turner was most likely a bigger star than Janssen in 2014 based on GOT. So you have...two bigger stars in the FC cast...

You honestly think casting-wise that people didn't care enough for the likes of James MacAvoy, Michael Fassbender, Jennifer Lawrence and Sophie Turner at the pick of their careers but would care about Patrick Stewart, Anna Paquin, James Marsden and Halle Berry after so long? When was the last time any one of them was relevant in Hollywood?

Jackman could play with either team, like I said. He was in both timelines, appeared even briefly in every film and and had he choose to appear again, First Class would make much more sense financially. But since he wasn't, there is no point talking about an original trilogy movie sequel without him.

Peak, not pick, of their careers.

That would have tanked even harder than Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix.

and Dark Phoenix?? Really???

Edit: All that said, this is all moot. Fox abandoned the OT cast awhile ago and their FC cast is wallowing in mediocrity that is Dark Phoenix. Time for Feige to fix X-men.

 

[Filmfreak]

Then don’t say going with the FC cast is the better decision when there’s no evidence to support that.

My disagreement is when I read people giving the credit of the box office success to the entirety of the original cast trilogy, even though it's pretty obvious Jackman's Wolverine was the one who made a significant difference in either X-Men generation. You don't buy the age investment argument or the current stardom of both cast members, all right. But there is nothing to support the opposite and that's what started this whole conversation.

Yes JLaw is arguably a bigger star than Romijn in 2014 (or any year really) but you can’t say with absolute certainly that McAvoy and Fassy are bigger stars than Stewart and McKellen in 2014. (The younger Storm, Cyclops and Nightcrawler wouldn’t have been cast if the franchise continued with the older cast but) Ditto Shipp, Sheridan, McPhee. They were not bigger stars than Berry, Marsden and Cumming. Turner was most likely a bigger star than Janssen in 2014 based on GOT. So you have...two bigger stars in the FC cast...

I don't entirely agree with your comparisons but I don't think there is any point in going with them one by one. Most of the names in the young cast were, and still are, more relevant than the old ones to the general audience, especially in younger ages. But it's not like I'm saying there would be a huge difference box-office wise. I'm mostly advocating for the opposite. That the other scenario wouldn't have helped boost the numbers like some people suggested.

Peak, not pick, of their careers.

Oh you'll find lots of these. Show some sympathy. English is not my mother tongue after all.

and Dark Phoenix?? Really???

Better than Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix respectively. If they'd made a second one with the original cast that is.

In any case I feel we're going in circles with this and I find myself repeating the same arguments. We'll never know for sure. After all, again, the same people would be behind cameras in either case. It would probably end up with similar reviews and overall quality so maybe it was all for the best. I think we can at least agree on that.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Yes we’re going in circles and no point in hypotheticals now since neither cast is continuing on.

That said it wouldn’t have been the same people behind the cameras. Kinberg has been on-record saying he’ll never make an X-men film without the FC trio in lead roles so in that case, you’re in agreement with Simon.

 

[SumT]

You know well enough that the problem with the box office lied within the people behind the cameras, not the actual cast. If they weren't able to make bucks with that cast, it's highly unlikely they would (at that point) with the old X-Men.

I know the numbers and you're talking about a different time, with much much less competition and a franchise that was more fresh and innovative. Also you are talking about a time where actors in the original cast were far more relevant than in mid '10s. I'm talking about the decision to continue with the young cast after 2014 and how it would resonate with the audience. General audience, not fans. The ones who bring studios actual money.

You honestly think casting-wise that people didn't care enough for the likes of James MacAvoy, Michael Fassbender, Jennifer Lawrence and Sophie Turner at the pick of their careers but would care about Patrick Stewart, Anna Paquin, James Marsden and Halle Berry after so long? When was the last time any one of them was relevant in Hollywood?

Jackman could play with either team, like I said. He was in both timelines, appeared even briefly in every film and and had he choose to appear again, First Class would make much more sense financially. But since he wasn't, there is no point talking about an original trilogy movie sequel without him. That would have tanked even harder than Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix.

Ive been reading all your comments these last two pages (and from another user too, I think)... but with quotes like that, seems like you have a very naive interpretation of how things really work:

most from general audience dont have a clue about who directs or writes a movie, they watch the trailers and tv spots on tv, along with posters/billboards here and there, and if they like what they see, they go to the theatre. If they dont like it, they just skip it.

And this is exactly what has happened with FC, Apocalypse and more than ever: Dark Phoenix, the three movies with just the FC cast.
there is just no way to spin this. as others users have said/suggested: numbers speak louder than words.

And opening weekends have nothing to do with how the actual movie is, its all about the previous hype and marketing. So once again, the audience is either hyped or isnt. And FC cast never brought the hype, as hard as you try to negate or twist. Numbers are facts. any other explanation is just damage control or excuses. Sorry.

 

[Filmfreak]

That said it wouldn’t have been the same people behind the cameras. Kinberg has been on-record saying he’ll never make an X-men film without the FC trio in lead roles so in that case, you’re in agreement with Simon.

You of all people should know what a Kinberg statement is worth.

But sure, yeah, maybe. All I know is I liked both cast members pretty much equally and I would have loved to see a sequel to Days of Future Past with either cast in either timeline, had it been in the level of quality of the first two movies of each trilogy. And I got neither. So there's that.

Ive been reading all your comments these last two pages (and from another user too, I think)... but with quotes like that, seems like you have a very naive interpretation of how things really work:.

Apparently reading and understanding are two different things.

And opening weekends have nothing to do with how the actual movie is
most from general audience dont have a clue about who directs or writes a movie, they watch the trailers and tv spots on tv, along with posters/billboards here and there, and if they like what they see, they go to the theatre. If they dont like it, they just skip it.

Also Apocalypse made more money worldwide. Also it had even worse reviews than The Last Stand that went public weeks before the movie was released.

If you think bad reviews don't play any part in reducing hype I doubt you're the one who knows how these things work.

its all about the previous hype and marketing. So once again, the audience is either hyped or isnt. And FC cast never brought the hype, as hard as you try to negate or twist. Numbers are facts. any other explanation is just damage control or excuses. Sorry.

First Class had the legacy of The Last Stand and Origins to escape from and a horrible marketing around the movie. People were losing faith in the franchise and the numbers were dropping. The fact that the movie was that good was one of the reasons Days of Future Past was the most successful X-Men movie, as it started winning people over (before losing them again).

I already said that myself. I wonder if you actually read my posts like you claimed.

most from general audience dont have a clue about who directs or writes a movie, they watch the trailers and tv spots on tv, along with posters/billboards here and there, and if they like what they see, they go to the theatre. If they dont like it, they just skip it.

Days of Future Past primarily focused on the First Class cast. Both the movie itself and the marketing. The original cast outside Jackman were secondary characters at best (Stewart) with the majority of them barely even having any dialogues since they were unfortunately there just for the action and high stakes in the movie.

Do you too see the endless loop we're going at? I'm over this subject honestly. Believe what you want.

 

[SumT]

I just believe the facts: the numbers.

X3 remains the biggest x-men movie in USA of this franchise. and Dofp, once it brought half the original cast, it became the biggest x-men movie worldwide.
I dont need to read articles or multiple boards to get to a conclussion lol.

X1, X2 and X3 didnt have China and the current state of superhero madness, and yet the three movies made more than FC, Apocalypse and Dark phoenix in USA. without 3d, without inflation, without current interest in the genre. Thats all we need to know, and most fans have adressed this multiple times during these years. Its pointless to keep forcing a different narrative, it wont go anywhere

 

[psylockolussus]

This was boring. I usually like ScreenJunkies' retrospective videos for film franchises but yawn. The commentators aren't very engaging. the 48 minute length didn't help either.

 

[Alison Blaire]

 

[Dark Raven]

This was boring. I usually like ScreenJunkies' retrospective videos for film franchises but yawn. The commentators aren't very engaging. the 48 minute length didn't help either.

Fortunately I didn't watch this. I have better things to do with my time than watch such a long documentary on something we've been discussing for years. I'd rather watch a long documentary on a topic I know nothing about to educate myself - eg something about another country etc.

 

[SumT]

that is a poster for Dark Phoenix or for Dark Magneto, yiiikes, lol.
whats wrong with Fox China? they still dont get that putting the x-men in the background wont ever work?
this studio is so f***** clueless, man. posters all over the place as most of the times.

 

[EnDz0n3]

I like how this movie trolled fans for two years.

That's a good thing?

 

[Vasilios]

that is a poster for Dark Phoenix or for Dark Magneto, yiiikes, lol.
whats wrong with Fox China? they still dont get that putting the x-men in the background wont ever work?
this studio is so f***** clueless, man. posters all over the place as most of the times.

Also why are Sophie’s hands like 10 feet long? Every aspect of this movie is such a disaster

 

[Erik Lensherr]

 

[Frankeh]

So what is the truth, there was a space sequence or not?

Anyway, that does look great, would have been cool to see it.

 

[Charzhin0]

Pretty generic and long video but I do liked the parts when Zack talked about First Class and how they incorporated aspects of the Magneto origins script into First Class (such as the redoing of the opening of X1 and the ''balance between rage and serenity'' scene). And how they made Kevin Bacon as Sebastian Shaw an engaging and understandable villain, something that Apocalypse never was in the movie

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Pretty generic and long video but I do liked the parts when Zack talked about First Class and how they incorporated aspects of the Magneto origins script into First Class (such as the redoing of the opening of X1 and the ''balance between rage and serenity'' scene). And how they made Kevin Bacon as Sebastian Shaw an engaging and understandable villain, something that Apocalypse never was in the movie

Ever since I first heard that, I've looked on First Class as my Origins: Magneto movie. I think OM really could've been something. That, and an Origins: Storm movie were two things I was really hoping for back then.