World X-MEN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Infinity9999x]

Zev, did you ever watch the Princess Bride? Because the wingspan comment Xavier makes reminds me of the comment in that movie when Wesley goes:

There's a shortage of perfect breasts in the world, it would be a shame to ruin yours.

 

[Zev]

Back in the day before DVDs, I remember my family just taped it when it showed on Fox and we just watched that. Came as quite a surprise when I found out that Inigo really said "I want my father back, you son of a *****." Pottymouth, Montoya.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Back in the day before DVDs, I remember my family just taped it when it showed on Fox and we just watched that. Came as quite a surprise when I found out that Inigo really said "I want my father back, you son of a *****." Pottymouth, Montoya.

Ahh yes, that was probably the first time I heard a swearword too. I love that movie.

Fezzick, are there rocks ahead?
If there are, we all be dead!
No more rhyming now I mean it!
Anybody want a peanut?
AGHH!

 

[Herr Logan]

Zev:

That's a pretty good Angel scene right there. I haven't decided if it's too dark for my vision of the movie (at least the X-Men part of things... I'm not saying characters like Magneto, Mastermind and subsequent villains can't have intro scenes as dark or much darker) or not, but I thank you for posting it. It's definitely an option.

 

[Herr Logan]

By the way, Zev, I finally saw the issue of 'Astonishing X-Men' from which that panel of Wolverine cutting paper dolls and blithering like a small English child came from.

I thought that was a homemade comic strip or something you made or found online. Apparently Joss Whedon has continued to ruin his own title. Such a shame, since his first story arc was pretty good. The story arc 'Danger' was crap for reasons I probably explained already, and this latest one is crap because it's further evidence of Whedon embracing the drastic retcons and contemporary alterations forced upon the X-Men mythos during Grant Morrison's reign of terror, despite what I heard about Whedon hating the Emma/Cyclops romance.
Cassandra freaking Nova. Why couldn't he just let her slip away into obscurity? Why couldn't he just let us forget what an egotistical ass Morrison was instead of rubbing it in our faces with a severe focus Emma and Cyclops and bringing Xavier's long-long evil twin back to the X-Mansion? Wait, I know why he brought Nova back... it's so she could incapacitate the X-Men so Joss can reclaim the glory of making a young woman the star of the show. Let's just put the Beast and Wolverine and the now useless leader of the X-Men out of commission so Kitty Pryde can strike Wolverine's classic pose from the Dark Phoenix Saga's Hellfire Club battle royale and then save all their asses, yet again. Oh yes, and now Danger, a hideously uninspired rip-off of an already bad plot from the ass-end of 'Operation: Zero Tolerance', is back. If it weren't for 'Firefly' and the movie it spawned, I'd classify him as a world-class screw-up. He gleefully and willfully made 'Buffy' jump the shark, big-time, his only remaining contributions to the X-Men movie were two really stupid lines, and now this.

Sorry, I know this isn't the place for a rant about the currently atrocious state of Marvel Comics or the past failures of its fan-favorite writers, we're supposed to discuss non-comics adaptations.

 

[kame-sennin]

For my second X-Men movie (the first that features Wolverine), I would have the same design as the tiger-striped yellow and blue costume but instead with the colors orange and black.

Am I the only one who likes the bumble bee costume?

As for whether Wolverine could stalk animals in the original colors, according to the comics he certsainly could. In my concept for 'Uncanny X-Men 2,' someone would ask Wolverine why he didn't wear all black if he considered himself so stealthy, and he'll reply that his stealthiness doesn't depend on coloring; it depends on skill.

Most animals are color blind as well, so wearing bright yellow wouldn't be a hinderance.

I'd also have him remark that he's glad Xavier didn't insist that he wear a leather costume, since that would be more uncomfortable and ultimately impractical, since the X-Men's costumes are made from highly durable, fireproof and breathable "space-age" fabrics.

I had an idea for how this exchange could go:

Cyclops, Wolverine, and Xavier are in the X-men ready room. Cyclops tosses Wolverine his new costume.

Wolverine: What is this, spandex?

Xavier: It's a tear resistant, fireproof fabric that conforms to the weare'rs body and manages their core temperature. I think you'll find that it will keep you in optimal fighting condition.

Wolverine: Not bad. I was expecting people like you to run around in some trendy black leather get up.

Cyclops: You can't do much running when you're passed out from dehydration.

^It's not as snappy as I wanted it to be, but I think it gets the point across.

I'm glad you're working on the video game again. That concept is pretty sweet, though you already know my thoughts on all that.

 

[Herr Logan]

Am I the only one who likes the bumble bee costume?

Yes. Yes, you are.

Most animals are color blind as well, so wearing bright yellow wouldn't be a hinderance.

I never even thought of that as an issue, considering his main priority at this point would not be hunting animals. But yeah, his entire purpose would be to avoid being seen, and unless he's got some extremely well-designed camouflage (and I don't mean GI fatigues) that make him blend into the woods, he ain't gonna be foolin' no deer.
Imagine how long it would take to actually get that close to one of those things. I'm assuming they have at least a decent sense of smell, probably better than a human's (but not as good as Wolverine's), so I'm guessing he has to stay downwind of them most of the time. That involves a hell of a lot of waiting, and moving without almost any sound at all. Since Wolverine is known to be able to do this (and no, I'm not going to tolerate anyone saying it's "unrealistic," for extremely obvious reasons), that means he can damn well avoid human detection pretty well, although obviously humans-- guards especially-- tend to gather in larger groups than deer, so there's more sets of eyes to avoid.

I had an idea for how this exchange could go:

Cyclops, Wolverine, and Xavier are in the X-men ready room. Cyclops tosses Wolverine his new costume.

Wolverine: What is this, spandex?

Xavier: It's a tear resistant, fireproof fabric that conforms to the weare'rs body and manages their core temperature. I think you'll find that it will keep you in optimal fighting condition.

Wolverine: Not bad. I was expecting people like you to run around in some trendy black leather get up.

Cyclops: You can't do much running when you're passed out from dehydration.

^It's not as snappy as I wanted it to be, but I think it gets the point across.

Yes, something along those lines would be great. This exposition makes much more sense than Wolverine and Nightcrawler chatting in the locker or whatever I wrote earlier. It's especially fitting that Cyclops have that line, considering it was both James Marsden and Hugh Jackman who passed out on the set during the filming of 'X-Men' due to their leather-covered foam-rubber costumes.

I do want to somehow make it clear that Wolverine chose his own design, since that makes another aspect make sense. I mean the part where someone asks him why he didn't choose all black for stealth purposes, and have him say that dressing in all black don't equal stealthiness, and that he could wear neon colors if he wanted and still be the best there is at what he does. I want to keep that, definitely.

I was thinking of a sequence where Cyclops can guide the new recruits on new costumes, having them each sit down at computers and actually designing their own costumes with a program. Xavier would have already set it up so the computers (whose operating system is Cerebro, of course, which will have a cool logo sequence involving a 3-D image of the human brain with electricity effects) have 3-D, rotatable models (dressed in their skivvies, leaving little to the imagination) that match their own physical appearances, including skin and hair color and texture, so they know just what they'll look like. Colossus' model can change from 6'6", 250 lbs to 7'5", 500 lbs., with both respective skin tones. Keep in mind that creating these graphics didn't take any real time or money within the story universe, since Xavier can upload pretty much anything into the system mentally (that's why it's Cerebro).

This may seem unnecessary to some, but I think it's a good way to capture a similar "school orientation" feeling that the original X-Men got, which also gives them a better chance to get to know each other, and Xavier wants them all to feel comfortable and to acknowledge that they're not children and aren't brand new to using their powers. That's why they get individual costumes.

It's probably toward the beginning of this sequence that I'd have Wolverine ask if this was supposed to be spandex, possibly as "Is this supposed to be spandex, like One-Eye over here?"

When the models load, there's another chance for some characteristic humor. I'd have Wolverine quip that his model isn't hairy enough. Nightcrawler then says "Mine is." I'd also have Nightcrawler peek over at Storm's monitor, ogle the untouched image of her in skimpy underwear for a moment and quip that hers is all done, and then she types in a command that covers it up in something none-too-sexy (don't worry, we all know what she'll be wearing on the job), cueing his pretend-pout. Nightcrawler will cycle through various options, including several outfits that look like pirate costumes and Luke Sywalker's outfit, but he'll end up designing pretty much exactly like his circus costume (his original costume from the comics, but with the white gloves and foot-coverings changed to dark red), citing how much attention from the ladies he got as a performer. Colossus will look over at Nightcrawler's and emulate his costume a little bit (the flared shoulders), possibly taking his comment about female attention seriously (and we don't know if it was true or not), and he feels completely lost in this endeavor.
Wolverine, now bored, cycles lazily through different colors for the parameters of a skintight suit that covers everything but his head and arms, stopping on yellow for a moment. The camera cuts to his face, then back to the screen. He keeps clicking.

This may or may not be a good time to show the short scene where Jean Grey is doing some modeling for the camera in a studio in New York City. I guess a good segue point would be having models of the original X-Men for reference, and Colossus asks why they haven't met the original members. Cyclops tells him they they wanted to take a break from superheroing. You can see Wolverine staring at the picture of Marvel Girl at the same time that Nightcrawler asked where that beautiful woman is now, and that's when we switch to cameras flashing at Jean, who is shown in various costumes, ranging from the mundane to the fantastic. The montage ends with the photographer or director or whomever showing her a superhero-type costume, and she has a look that says "oy vey."
That whole costume-picking sequence wouldn't take much time, really, though it seems that way when reading it.

I think there should be several short segments for the "school orientation," where they go on a tour of the mansion and its secret lower levels.
Cyclops, a born pilot, takes pride in showing them the hangar, rattling off the features of their modified SR-71 Blackbird jet. Wolverine shows a subtle look of approval, Colossus looks on in his usual naive, wide-eyed way, and Nightcrawler totally geeks out. Nightcrawler also geeks out to a superhuman degree when he sees a demo sequence in the Danger Room. I mean literally superhuman. He teleports in there from the observation room and starts a complex acrobatic routine spontaneously. Cyclops, amused but slightly irked at his lack of discipline, activates a minimal-risk trap, startling Nightcrawler, who bamfs right back in, looking sheepish.
Storm does her own subtle, dignified geeking out when she sees the attic greenhouse. Having rarely showed any real emotion so far, she gives a million-dollar smile when Xavier says she can have his as her quarters if she wants.

Those aren't necessarily in order. What do you think?

I'm glad you're working on the video game again. That concept is pretty sweet, though you already know my thoughts on all that.

I do. But more wouldn't hurt.


Thanks a lot for posting, kame-sennin. Don't make a habit of it, or anything.

 

[kame-sennin]

Yes. Yes, you are.

boooo! j/k. I was challenging your system of beliefs more than anything as the brown and tan costume is my all-time favorite.

Yes, something along those lines would be great. This exposition makes much more sense than Wolverine and Nightcrawler chatting in the locker or whatever I wrote earlier. It's especially fitting that Cyclops have that line, considering it was both James Marsden and Hugh Jackman who passed out on the set during the filming of 'X-Men' due to their leather-covered foam-rubber costumes.

That's hillarious. I'm glad you like the exchange, though it probably needs a little re-tooling to get the point across more sussinctly/comicly. I just figured I'd throw it out there.

I do want to somehow make it clear that Wolverine chose his own design, since that makes another aspect make sense. I mean the part where someone asks him why he didn't choose all black for stealth purposes, and have him say that dressing in all black don't equal stealthiness, and that he could wear neon colors if he wanted and still be the best there is at what he does. I want to keep that, definitely.

I was thinking of a sequence where Cyclops can guide the new recruits on new costumes, having them each sit down at computers and actually designing their own costumes with a program. Xavier would have already set it up so the computers (whose operating system is Cerebro, of course, which will have a cool logo sequence involving a 3-D image of the human brain with electricity effects) have 3-D, rotatable models (dressed in their skivvies, leaving little to the imagination) that match their own physical appearances, including skin and hair color and texture, so they know just what they'll look like. Colossus' model can change from 6'6", 250 lbs to 7'5", 500 lbs., with both respective skin tones. Keep in mind that creating these graphics didn't take any real time or money within the story universe, since Xavier can upload pretty much anything into the system mentally (that's why it's Cerebro).

This may seem unnecessary to some, but I think it's a good way to capture a similar "school orientation" feeling that the original X-Men got, which also gives them a better chance to get to know each other, and Xavier wants them all to feel comfortable and to acknowledge that they're not children and aren't brand new to using their powers. That's why they get individual costumes.

It's probably toward the beginning of this sequence that I'd have Wolverine ask if this was supposed to be spandex, possibly as "Is this supposed to be spandex, like One-Eye over here?"

Good idea. Instead of having Cyclops toss Wolvie his suit, the way I wrote it, perhaps he could make the comment about spandex when he sees Cyclops in uniform for the first time.

When the models load, there's another chance for some characteristic humor. I'd have Wolverine quip that his model isn't hairy enough. Nightcrawler then says "Mine is." I'd also have Nightcrawler peek over at Storm's monitor, ogle the untouched image of her in skimpy underwear for a moment and quip that hers is all done, and then she types in a command that covers it up in something none-too-sexy (don't worry, we all know what she'll be wearing on the job), cueing his pretend-pout. Nightcrawler will cycle through various options, including several outfits that look like pirate costumes and Luke Sywalker's outfit, but he'll end up designing pretty much exactly like his circus costume (his original costume from the comics, but with the white gloves and foot-coverings changed to dark red), citing how much attention from the ladies he got as a performer. Colossus will look over at Nightcrawler's and emulate his costume a little bit (the flared shoulders), possibly taking his comment about female attention seriously (and we don't know if it was true or not), and he feels completely lost in this endeavor.
Wolverine, now bored, cycles lazily through different colors for the parameters of a skintight suit that covers everything but his head and arms, stopping on yellow for a moment. The camera cuts to his face, then back to the screen. He keeps clicking.

I liked the humorous parts, especially the bit about Nightcrawler and the Luke Skywalker suit. However, I'm not sure how I feel about the Wolverine glossing over the yellow costume part. It seems a bit "would you prefer yellow spandex" for my tastes. Again, I have no problem with not using the yellow costume, I'm just not quite comfortable with mocking. Just MHO.

I think there should be several short segments for the "school orientation," where they go on a tour of the mansion and its secret lower levels.
Cyclops, a born pilot, takes pride in showing them the hangar, rattling off the features of their modified SR-71 Blackbird jet. Wolverine shows a subtle look of approval, Colossus looks on in his usual naive, wide-eyed way, and Nightcrawler totally geeks out. Nightcrawler also geeks out to a superhuman degree when he sees a demo sequence in the Danger Room. I mean literally superhuman. He teleports in there from the observation room and starts a complex acrobatic routine spontaneously. Cyclops, amused but slightly irked at his lack of discipline, activates a minimal-risk trap, startling Nightcrawler, who bamfs right back in, looking sheepish.
Storm does her own subtle, dignified geeking out when she sees the attic greenhouse. Having rarely showed any real emotion so far, she gives a million-dollar smile when Xavier says she can have his as her quarters if she wants. Those aren't necessarily in order. What do you think?

I think this is a really good way of establishing character. It actually reminds me of how little character was actually built in the current X-franchise. But that's another story, overall, good work. I cut out any parts where I completley agree and had nothing to add.

I do. But more wouldn't hurt.


Thanks a lot for posting, kame-sennin. Don't make a habit of it, or anything.

As for the video game concept, nothing really jumps to mind, except the fact that you were debating whether or not to include the Shi'ar. I say the Shi'ar and the royale guard would be a kick ass element to add to the game. It was kind of a random path to take the X-men in the comics, but it would be a really fun way to elevate the gameplay if players got to fight alien super heroes in space.

 

[Herr Logan]

boooo! j/k. I was challenging your system of beliefs more than anything as the brown and tan costume is my all-time favorite.

Ah, I gotcha. I was just kidding, too. I truly don't want to see him wear yellow used in a live action movie (except in my fourth movie where Xavier and Cyclops decide to make the team all wear the original school colors, blue and gold, but the team will quickly decide to go back to their own costumes), but I won't challenge anyone else's argument for it, unless it's a factually erroneous argument of some kind. And yeah, I don't see why the basic design of the original suit using different colors couldn't be used. I think it would look awesome in orange and black with the tiger stripes.

That's hillarious. I'm glad you like the exchange, though it probably needs a little re-tooling to get the point across more sussinctly/comicly. I just figured I'd throw it out there.

Oh, I'm really glad you did throw it out there. It goes along perfectly with the vague segment I was planning, and it gave me more concrete ideas.

Good idea. Instead of having Cyclops toss Wolvie his suit, the way I wrote it, perhaps he could make the comment about spandex when he sees Cyclops in uniform for the first time.

Yeah, I was thinking as soon as it finally sinks in that he's going to be wearing a uniform (it will be shortly after they all arrive), he'll look at Cyclops in his uniform and ask that.

I liked the humorous parts, especially the bit about Nightcrawler and the Luke Skywalker suit. However, I'm not sure how I feel about the Wolverine glossing over the yellow costume part. It seems a bit "would you prefer yellow spandex" for my tastes. Again, I have no problem with not using the yellow costume, I'm just not quite comfortable with mocking. Just MHO.

You know what, you're absolutely right. I didn't actually intend it to be mocking, but rather an opportunity to make the "leather-heads" squirm for a second or two, and making a very subtle hint that it's not completely out of the question that Wolverine might choose yellow. I wasn't planning on having him show any noticable change in facial expression between when the fabric template was yellow and when he moved on after a moment, like a frown or scoff or anything; he'd just have the same look in his eye as when the color was black, blue, brown, etc., meaning he doesn't feel particularly one way or the other about it, because again, he's not worried about being seen in something bright by other people, as he's generally not self-conscious about his looks. If others think he looks silly, they either keep it to their damn selves or they risk a good amount of pain and humiliation at his hands. I also wasn't going to have him be overly scornful with regard to how the other X-Men looked in their tights-like outfits (he'd be pretty scornful about the matching belt buckles, though, because he doesn't want to be "branded with another man's mark").
Nevertheless, if that would come across as mocking hardcore fans of the original costume, then it doesn't belong in my movie, period. I apologize if that's what it seemed like I'd be doing, and I thank you for speaking up about it.

I think this is a really good way of establishing character. It actually reminds me of how little character was actually built in the current X-franchise. But that's another story, overall, good work. I cut out any parts where I completley agree and had nothing to add.

Exactly. When all these pathetic studio apologists for various franchises try to excuse Movie!Spidey for being boring, Movie!Wolverine for being bland and Movie!Hulk/Banner for being useless in every conceivable way by passing it off as "character development," it makes my blood boil. You know what made me fall in love with the X-Men? The character development on the cartoon show. Once I read 'Essential X-Men' volumes 3 and 4, given to me by a friend, I was a hardcore fan of the Claremont years X-Men from then on, and I got each of the other 'Essential X-Men' volumes available to this day (though they do decline in quality about the time that Rachel Summers shows up, but nonetheless, that's a big chunk of time where the storytelling was gold), and that, too, was because of the character development. The characters were consistent and largely distinctive, so it wasn't all about the action, as these offensive sheep keep trying to suggest. And the distinction between the real Spider-Man and Movie!Spidey is the hugest gap of them all when it comes to quantity and quality of character development, comparing one movie to even one single issue. It's disgusting just how much the movies do not measure up in that way.

The reason the original X-Men team was never very successful may or may not have been because it was, in my opinion, not nearly his best work when it came to writing, and the "will they/won't they" romance subplot between Jean and Cyclops was offensively bad. It makes me wonder if Daredevil had the same lack of popularity, considering I see the exact same irritating, repetitive thing going on between Matt Murdock and Karen Page as Scott Summers and Jean Grey, and Daredevil's love-disconnect was a hell of a lot sillier than X-Men's. Poor blind Matt felt he didn't deserve Karen's love because he was blind. Blind!! Cyclops worrying about opening up his eyes and killing his lover is a hell of a lot more rational than that. Then again, and this is also complicated by the sordid nature of a relationship between a middle-aged teacher and an 18 year-old student, Professor Xavier said something almost exactly the same when he revealed that he loved Jean Grey (in that way, I mean), but felt unworthy of her love because he was crippled. Stan Lee must not have thought much of the self-confidence and moral standards of the handicapped back then... I mean really.
Anyway, I haven't read too much of the original X-Men years, but from what I have read, I see a very strong basis for character development that can be pushed further to work in a movie. I personally would emphasize certain aspects of the Angel in particular to heighten the overall tension between the characters. While arrogant, he is basically very envious of Iceman, since he can go through life "passing" as human without effort and not have physical abnormalities get in the way of his constant immature jockularity. He's envious of Cyclops because, despite the constant danger surrouding his eyes and the fact that he can't remove his glasses, he can also pass for human with relative ease, and Jean Grey has feelings for Scott that she doesn't have for Warren.
Yes, I would have a love triangle, and I would actually work it into the plot in such a way that it would interfere with the workings of the team. I'd have a battle/mission in the middle where there's a specific team formation that Cyclops decided upon before the real action started, where Angel is pointman and everyone else is assigned one or two people whose backs they are to watch. Cyclops is watching Angel's back, Marvel Girl is to look out for Beast and/or Iceman (she can cover more territory because of her power), and either Beast or Iceman is to look out for Marvel Girl, who's placed further back than Cyclops. When the $hit hits the fan, Angel breaks formation to protect Jean, and Jean breaks her focus to protect Scott, and Iceman does something stupid in one form or another. During the debriefing, he yells at everyone for not following orders, and Angel, whose tension with Scott has been festering all along to some degree (but not nearly as volatile as Wolverine's, and everyone should not that Angel's rivalry with Cyclops was almost completely based on his feelings towards Jean, where that was never Wolverine's basis for disliking Scott, ever), gets in his face in open argument. Angel accuses Cyclops of castigating him out of resentment him for trying to rescue Jean first, but Cyclops dismisses this by saying that neither of them were supposed to be her backup, and Jean shouldn't have gone to Cyclops, either. Cyclops is actually taking his job seriously, and can't afford to let his emotions get in the way. He didn't ask for the job, but Xavier gave it to him, so it's his responsibility to make things work, whether or not he has feelings for a team member. Just as Cyclops isn't being petty about this situation, Jean, while showing embarrassment and dismay at being criticized for her mistake by the guy she has a thing for, does not blame him, and rather than forcing the audience to watch a whining female love interest b1tching out the stoic male lead (like in 'Hulk,' where this was done especially badly), we see some maturity instead. She shows understanding and tries to let him know he doesn't need to carry as much guilt as he's been.
There's every opportunity to give audience all the stuff that the Hollywood types think they want (angst, romance, drama, comedy, on top of the action), without making things cheap and shallow.

I totally lost track of what the point was, and for that I apologize.

As for the video game concept, nothing really jumps to mind, except the fact that you were debating whether or not to include the Shi'ar. I say the Shi'ar and the royale guard would be a kick ass element to add to the game. It was kind of a random path to take the X-men in the comics, but it would be a really fun way to elevate the gameplay if players got to fight alien super heroes in space.

Yeah, that's a possibility for a video game. I still wouldn't be thrilled about it, but if it was done well, I'd live with it. I definitely do not want to deal with the Shi'ar for my second X-Men movie concept, though, where Jean becomes Phoenix and dies at the end. It's way too messy, and I feel some of the core elements of the Phoenix Saga can be done without them, if we are to view the Phoenix as a version of Jean instead of an alien force.

Feel free to suggest whatever about whatever, whether it's Shi'ar or not.
You, my friend, have good ideas, and I have need of good ideas. Desperate need.
Sorry, I'm channelling Professor X from 'Giant Sized X-Men' #1.

Thanks again for posting.

 

[Herr Logan]

Go to this thread now: it's Crisis on Infinite Safe Havens!

Best of luck to you all, and thanks for all your contributions and support.

 

[Zev]

I'm Taking Over

 

[Herr Logan]

Look again and read carefully.

 

[kame-sennin]

Oh, I'm really glad you did throw it out there. It goes along perfectly with the vague segment I was planning, and it gave me more concrete ideas.

Glad to be of service.

You know what, you're absolutely right. I didn't actually intend it to be mocking, but rather an opportunity to make the "leather-heads" squirm for a second or two, and making a very subtle hint that it's not completely out of the question that Wolverine might choose yellow. I wasn't planning on having him show any noticable change in facial expression between when the fabric template was yellow and when he moved on after a moment, like a frown or scoff or anything; he'd just have the same look in his eye as when the color was black, blue, brown, etc., meaning he doesn't feel particularly one way or the other about it, because again, he's not worried about being seen in something bright by other people, as he's generally not self-conscious about his looks. If others think he looks silly, they either keep it to their damn selves or they risk a good amount of pain and humiliation at his hands. I also wasn't going to have him be overly scornful with regard to how the other X-Men looked in their tights-like outfits (he'd be pretty scornful about the matching belt buckles, though, because he doesn't want to be "branded with another man's mark").
Nevertheless, if that would come across as mocking hardcore fans of the original costume, then it doesn't belong in my movie, period. I apologize if that's what it seemed like I'd be doing, and I thank you for speaking up about it.

No apology nessecary, I knew that you of all people did not intend to be insulting. However I'm impressed by your honesty and ability to self-criticize. It's my pleasure to keep you on your toes

Exactly. When all these pathetic studio apologists for various franchises try to excuse Movie!Spidey for being boring, Movie!Wolverine for being bland and Movie!Hulk/Banner for being useless in every conceivable way by passing it off as "character development," it makes my blood boil. You know what made me fall in love with the X-Men? The character development on the cartoon show. Once I read 'Essential X-Men' volumes 3 and 4, given to me by a friend, I was a hardcore fan of the Claremont years X-Men from then on, and I got each of the other 'Essential X-Men' volumes available to this day (though they do decline in quality about the time that Rachel Summers shows up, but nonetheless, that's a big chunk of time where the storytelling was gold), and that, too, was because of the character development. The characters were consistent and largely distinctive, so it wasn't all about the action, as these offensive sheep keep trying to suggest. And the distinction between the real Spider-Man and Movie!Spidey is the hugest gap of them all when it comes to quantity and quality of character development, comparing one movie to even one single issue. It's disgusting just how much the movies do not measure up in that way.

The reason the original X-Men team was never very successful may or may not have been because it was, in my opinion, not nearly his best work when it came to writing, and the "will they/won't they" romance subplot between Jean and Cyclops was offensively bad. It makes me wonder if Daredevil had the same lack of popularity, considering I see the exact same irritating, repetitive thing going on between Matt Murdock and Karen Page as Scott Summers and Jean Grey, and Daredevil's love-disconnect was a hell of a lot sillier than X-Men's. Poor blind Matt felt he didn't deserve Karen's love because he was blind. Blind!! Cyclops worrying about opening up his eyes and killing his lover is a hell of a lot more rational than that. Then again, and this is also complicated by the sordid nature of a relationship between a middle-aged teacher and an 18 year-old student, Professor Xavier said something almost exactly the same when he revealed that he loved Jean Grey (in that way, I mean), but felt unworthy of her love because he was crippled. Stan Lee must not have thought much of the self-confidence and moral standards of the handicapped back then... I mean really.
Anyway, I haven't read too much of the original X-Men years, but from what I have read, I see a very strong basis for character development that can be pushed further to work in a movie. I personally would emphasize certain aspects of the Angel in particular to heighten the overall tension between the characters. While arrogant, he is basically very envious of Iceman, since he can go through life "passing" as human without effort and not have physical abnormalities get in the way of his constant immature jockularity. He's envious of Cyclops because, despite the constant danger surrouding his eyes and the fact that he can't remove his glasses, he can also pass for human with relative ease, and Jean Grey has feelings for Scott that she doesn't have for Warren.
Yes, I would have a love triangle, and I would actually work it into the plot in such a way that it would interfere with the workings of the team. I'd have a battle/mission in the middle where there's a specific team formation that Cyclops decided upon before the real action started, where Angel is pointman and everyone else is assigned one or two people whose backs they are to watch. Cyclops is watching Angel's back, Marvel Girl is to look out for Beast and/or Iceman (she can cover more territory because of her power), and either Beast or Iceman is to look out for Marvel Girl, who's placed further back than Cyclops. When the $hit hits the fan, Angel breaks formation to protect Jean, and Jean breaks her focus to protect Scott, and Iceman does something stupid in one form or another. During the debriefing, he yells at everyone for not following orders, and Angel, whose tension with Scott has been festering all along to some degree (but not nearly as volatile as Wolverine's, and everyone should not that Angel's rivalry with Cyclops was almost completely based on his feelings towards Jean, where that was never Wolverine's basis for disliking Scott, ever), gets in his face in open argument. Angel accuses Cyclops of castigating him out of resentment him for trying to rescue Jean first, but Cyclops dismisses this by saying that neither of them were supposed to be her backup, and Jean shouldn't have gone to Cyclops, either. Cyclops is actually taking his job seriously, and can't afford to let his emotions get in the way. He didn't ask for the job, but Xavier gave it to him, so it's his responsibility to make things work, whether or not he has feelings for a team member. Just as Cyclops isn't being petty about this situation, Jean, while showing embarrassment and dismay at being criticized for her mistake by the guy she has a thing for, does not blame him, and rather than forcing the audience to watch a whining female love interest b1tching out the stoic male lead (like in 'Hulk,' where this was done especially badly), we see some maturity instead. She shows understanding and tries to let him know he doesn't need to carry as much guilt as he's been.
There's every opportunity to give audience all the stuff that the Hollywood types think they want (angst, romance, drama, comedy, on top of the action), without making things cheap and shallow.

I totally lost track of what the point was, and for that I apologize.

You sure did, but whatev. I think the most important thing about the Angel, Jean, Scott love triangle is that is distinct from the Wolvie triangle. So far, it seems you are doing that, so I think the first movie is in good shape. Also, I really like the detail in Scott's battle strategies. I really like tactics, but they're always too dumbed down in movies and television. Granted, too much detail will loose an audience, but I like where you're going with it. Good job.

Yeah, that's a possibility for a video game. I still wouldn't be thrilled about it, but if it was done well, I'd live with it. I definitely do not want to deal with the Shi'ar for my second X-Men movie concept, though, where Jean becomes Phoenix and dies at the end. It's way too messy, and I feel some of the core elements of the Phoenix Saga can be done without them, if we are to view the Phoenix as a version of Jean instead of an alien force.

Feel free to suggest whatever about whatever, whether it's Shi'ar or not.
You, my friend, have good ideas, and I have need of good ideas. Desperate need.
Sorry, I'm channelling Professor X from 'Giant Sized X-Men' #1.

Thanks again for posting.

Thanks. But yea, seriously consider the Shi'ar for the game. I agree that they are too much of a deviation in theme for a movie, but I think they're too dynamic of an enemy to take out of a game.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

I got astonishing X-Men #15... and Logan is being chased by Beast...wtf is up with that?

 

[kame-sennin]

I got astonishing X-Men #15... and Logan is being chased by Beast...wtf is up with that?

IRRC, Beast's mind has been altered in some way, I think by Cassandra Nova.

 

[Herr Logan]

I got astonishing X-Men #15... and Logan is being chased by Beast...wtf is up with that?

It's Joss Whedon trying to be funny with the X-Men. I'd handle that whole shtick with Wolverine and Beast acting like that a lot better if it was written by someone who hadn't sold out and given us "Danger" and if the villain used wasn't one of Grant Morrison's ego-driven, badly-placed creations.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Oh. okay. I get it now. lol I just found it weird. lol

 

[Herr Logan]

No apology nessecary, I knew that you of all people did not intend to be insulting. However I'm impressed by your honesty and ability to self-criticize. It's my pleasure to keep you on your toes

Hey, my criticisms of others are worthless if people don't know that I'm more dedicated to the truth and to my principles than I am to my own ego. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I know I'm not completely wrong in what I wrote before, but if my off-the-cuff idea for a midly amusing four seconds of screentime carries the risk of alienating or insulting a true fan out of confusion, it's just not worth it.
Thanks for keeping me on my toes. So few people are up to doing it right.

You sure did, but whatev. I think the most important thing about the Angel, Jean, Scott love triangle is that is distinct from the Wolvie triangle. So far, it seems you are doing that, so I think the first movie is in good shape. Also, I really like the detail in Scott's battle strategies. I really like tactics, but they're always too dumbed down in movies and television. Granted, too much detail will loose an audience, but I like where you're going with it. Good job.

Thanks.

I guess the more I think about it, the more I am visualizing Angel as more like Wolverine than he was originally portrayed. Not in his mannerisms, speech patterns or personal history, of course (that would be a trashy, unforgivably unfaithful thing to do, even if it was just a little bit), but in terms of him being more of an angry, arrogant, unhappy person who's somewhat envious of the relative normalcy of his teammates and the cameraderie that comes easier between them. He was always very into Jean, and it's been far more of a real issue in the comics between he, Jean and Cyclops than it was with Wolverine, so making that more of a focus isn't embellishing at all. Warren and Jean had a chance. Wolverine and Jean didn't, unless maybe Cyclops had died while she was Phoenix, maybe, which obviously didn't happen.
Anyway, some part of me recognizes the need for some of Wolverine's very basic qualities, since I honestly think it would be a very bold move to make an X-Man movie that didn't include Wolverine at all. Hell, no producer would even consider that, really, to be realistic about it. I don't care, though. I said at the top of this and every other Safe Haven thread that this isn't about reality, it's about the ideal situation for real fans. Wolverine wasn't in the first several years of the X-Men, so he shouldn't be there in the first movie, period. But yeah, fans are drawn to the archetypical trouble-maker, or at least the brooding one. Cyclops is of course the ultimate brooder, but he's not allowed to be both a brooder and a "rebel", which does not mean he couldn't be the most interesting X-Man in the first movie, or possibly the whole series. It just means he can't serve as the role of "guy who keeps the leader on his toes," since he's the reluctant leader. Nobody else can fill that role as well as Angel, unless I want to write the Beast as he was written in the first three issues, since that version was quite pugnacious and surly. But I don't want to use that. I want to use the Beast as he's been written ever since X-Men #4, and that's a mostly patient, friendly, light-hearted class clown who usually doesn't act arrogant towards his own teammates despite his vast intellectual and physical superiority. The Beast will be seen as probably the most "likable" aside from Jean (who should be the most likable for the... target audience... for various reasons).
I think it can be pushed to a certain point, how much Angel is a "lone wolf" by nature. He was a superhero before the others were, and on his own, so I think that gives a fair basis for it. He'd of course be far more charming and sociable than Wolverine, as well as many other marked differences. Anyway, just wanted to confess what I think I've been going, and my reasons for why I don't think it's too far out of line, and I'm saying that if it seems I'm going too far with it, feel free to call me on it.

Thanks. But yea, seriously consider the Shi'ar for the game. I agree that they are too much of a deviation in theme for a movie, but I think they're too dynamic of an enemy to take out of a game.

I think the Shi'ar thing would be especially great for a more traditional RPG game. If I was at all invested in the 'X-Men Legends' series and if there was going to be another one, I'd reccomend that as a big part of the plot.

If you want to tell us how you'd write the Shi'ar sections of the Phoenix Saga into either my game concept or your own, feel free. I've got some other stuff I'm working on at the moment, but I'm not writing it off.

 

[Herr Logan]

This has been my basic working concept for my X-Men film franchise:

• Uncanny X-Men
  • Original X-Men vs. Magneto and Original Brotherhood
• Uncanny X-Men 2
  • New X-Men vs. Sentinels, Hellfire Club and Dark Phoenix
• Uncanny X-Men 3
  • New X-Men plus Kitty Pryde vs. Mystique's Brotherhood and possibly the Morlocks
• Uncanny X-Men 4
  • Old and New X-Men reunited plus more new X-Men vs. Mr. Sinister, the Marauders and Apocalypse

Here's an idea that I've been playing with over the weekend:

Instead of going straight from the first 'Uncanny X-Men' to having the Hellfire Club and Phoenix Saga in the first sequel, I've been thinking about actually using the plots of Giant Size X-Men #1 and Nefaria/Ani-Men mission (X-Men #94-95) in 'Uncanny X-Men 2' and actually using Banshee, Thunderbird and Sunfire in it. This has several advantages and a couple of drawbacks.

Setting aside a full three-hour (or more) movie for brief introductions of all the new X-Men and giving them time to get to know each other well before Jean Grey gets her boost in power and psychic tampering by Mastermind during my truncation of the Phoenix Saga will make the emotional and dramatic impact behind the events of the story far more poignant and will not seem nearly as rushed. Wolverine's love for Jean will of course never be the a huge focus of any movie made by me, but the sense of loss by him and Storm especially, and all the other new X-Men (Cyclops' and Beast's senses of loss go without saying, as they'll have built their respective relationships with her in the first movie regardless) will be more genuine in my opinion and less forced. That's not the only interpersonal drama element that will be strengthened, of course, but it's the most extreme example.
All of the characters will be more fleshed out by showing how they began their relationship with the X-Men and how they worked as a team before things got as crazy as they did during the latter part of the Phoenix Saga. I don't feel it's a good idea to try and cram the introduction and orientation/acclimation of the new X-Men into one three hour movie on top of the battle royale with the Sentinels that leads to Jean's transformation, Mastermind's psychic seduction of Jean, the X-Men getting ambushed and kidnapped by the White Queen and her goons in Illinois, the infiltration, captivity and battles in the Hellfire Club, and the final showdowns between the X-Men and Phoenix and Xavier and Phoenix, and all the character interaction scenes in between. It's too much to do it all right in even a reasonably long movie.
There's a lot of character and relationship development between the various characters that needs some time to build. Wolverine and Nightcrawler's friendship needs some time to build, as does Nightcrawler's and Colossus' and Colossus' and Storm's, Wolverine's and Jean's and Wolverine's and Cyclops'. I want to see the fight between Angel and Wolverine in the garden in front of Jean, and it should be while Angel and Jean are still living there. Everyone's relationship with Professor X needs some time, too. There's more to explore, of course.
While I don't think back on either the Krakoa Island rescue or the Valhalla Mountain mission as my personal favorite X-Men stories, and I know that Count Nefaria and the Ani-Men aren't widely known as being among the top tier of X-Men villains, I think both stories could be done well, and the first story gives a good reason for Xavier collecting several new X-Men all at the same time, and allows most of the original X-Men to leave without seeming like ungrateful deserters. I could deal with having text on a screen in the very beginning of a movie explain that four of the five original X-Men left the team off-screen, but unless Xavier already had replacements at the ready, it doesn't seem very heroic for them to leave within a short span of time of each other. If they are captured, new X-Men are recruited to save them and the old X-Men leave knowing that there are still people to do their jobs, that's just better overall. Again, the source material is revered for a reason. A lot of it works for a reason. The Krakoa incident is a huge turning point in X-Men history and was indeed a good reason to bring in new people.
The story following that one is the first story where an X-Man actually died and stayed dead. True, Thunderbird had been in a total of three issues when he bought the farm, he wasn't popular and was killed out of necessity because he was too similar to Wolverine and apparently even just two supremely antisocial @ssholes on the team was too many (they already got rid of Sunfire in X-Men #94, and he was the worst of the three), but it was still a huge event.

Personally, I'm not very fond of Krakoa, but I think it could be portrayed as very creepy and interesting, like something out of a horror movie. I have a huge, huge phobia of crabs, but I still feel compelled to use those gigantic, horrible crabs that attacked Wolverine and Banshee, because this thread is about faithfulness. It’s a very quick scene, anyway, just like in the original comic. Anyway, the whole island is alive and all its flora and fauna are psychically linked by a collective consciousness that was created during a nuclear bomb test decades ago (like Godzilla and friends), and it could be really creepy and cool.
I was planning on not having Havok and Polaris in this, but rather leave Beast with the X-Men and have him not be furry yet. This presents a problem with dispatching Krakoa the way they did in the comics, since Polaris was the crucial factor in that (she cut the gravity around Krakoa and several other X-Men blasted the island from beneath so it went all the way out of the Earth’s atmosphere). I think there’s still another way to do it, though.

The fact that some people find Count Nefaria and the Ani-Men to be corny wasn't even a factor in why I ever hesitated to use them in a movie. Never a factor. Just like I said in the Batman Safe Haven that I'd prefer not to use Clayface and Man-Bat for reasons completely unrelated to the "realism" of their powers and appearances, the same fits here; they aren't that widely considered top-tier villains. On the other hand, these two stories fit together well thematically and fit continuity perfectly. As for how the proverbial "general audience" would perceive the latter set of threats, I'll say this:
Count Nefaria's name would never change, at all. Anyone who would even consider that is a coward and shouldn't be in this thread. Don't think people would take it seriously? Go pack up your comic collection and hide it from all the “cool kids”, @sshole, your kind isn't wanted here. Here's his character history and info. His history should not be changed around too much, as in he should remain a descendant of Italian nobility no matter what, and he should probably be closely involved in international crime, illicit scientific research and development (hence, the Ani-Men) and his reasons for being a terrorist should be based on personal greed, like most classic Marvel villains. His visual appearance can be changed a bit. He doesn't need to have a monocle, necessarily. He obviously does need to have the Van Dyke facial hair. He should have some elements of one of his better known costumes, including some form of cloak or robe (not a mere trenchcoat, though... absolutely not).
If the Ani-Men seem too corny for you, again, you're in the wrong thread. There's no reason why the appearances and abilities of these characters can't be modified in such a way that they are impressive and creepy-looking in a classic sci-fi way. These are humans who committed crimes in animal-themed costumes and personas that have been turned into actual genetic hybrids with the animals they previously represented: bird, cat, ape, and frog. Nefaria was the one who had them modified, and he added a woman he turned into a dragonfly creature. Even after their transformations, they can communicate verbally with others. That's in no conceivable way "won't work." If some of them need to have voice modulators that translate their utterances into English, then so be it. Cat-Man and Ape-Man should be very easily translated visually, especially since there's already been a remake of 'The Island of Dr. Moreau' with decent creature effects that featured similar animal hybrids. Bird-Man, Frog-Man and Dragonfly may take some further consideration and deviation from their original looks in the comics, but anyone who thinks it can't be done should probably stop reading comics and watching any form of sci-fi. These are action villains. We don't need to take them seriously as "relatable" characters. They're perfect for testing out the abilities and early teamwork of the new X-Men, even though they aren't as essential to the mythos as other villains. Anyone with any imagination can see this “working” in a live action movie. You’re entitled to dislike these characters and the idea of using them in an X-Men movie, but you are not entitled to claim they “wouldn’t work” based on “realism” or how “corny” they are. Not in this thread. I apologize for belaboring this point, but I have no wish to repeat myself on this subject, so now I’ve made myself clear, and the first time someone makes an argument about the issues I specifically stated were off-limits for this thread, they will be asked to leave.

Anyway, at the end of the Valhalla mission, Nefaria gets in a plane and tries to escape, but Thunderbird grabs onto the plane and tries to stop him. At some point, in mid-flight, the plane explodes, killing Thunderbird while Banshee is trying to catch up and save him and Xavier is in telepathic contact with him.

The downsides to making this drastic change that I see right off are these:
It will not allow for the humorous costume-design scene and semi-relaxed school orientation sequences I proposed a few days ago. The X-Men should not be going to Krakoa without their famous costumes, since that mission will take a big chunk of screen time.
It will either not allow for my intended ending to the Phoenix Saga movie—where Wolverine leaves without explanation after Jean dies and then comes back just as unexpectedly, now wearing the patented X-Men belt buckle and ready to carry on as a dedicated X-Man—or it will remove a lot of the dramatic impact of it. It’s okay, though, since I still have an idea for how Wolverine can show how attached to the team he’s become and how much closer he is to his teammates, including Cyclops.

What do you all think?

 

[Herr Logan]

Any thoughts on my last post?

Remember, it's fine to say you don't like Krakoa, Count Nefaria or the Ani-Men, or that you think they don't deserve a movie as much as others, but do not say that you think it's a bad idea because it's "corny" or "unrealistic" or "wouldn't work."

 

[Zev]

This has been my basic working concept for my X-Men film franchise:

• Uncanny X-Men
  • Original X-Men vs. Magneto and Original Brotherhood
• Uncanny X-Men 2
  • New X-Men vs. Sentinels, Hellfire Club and Dark Phoenix
• Uncanny X-Men 3
  • New X-Men plus Kitty Pryde vs. Mystique's Brotherhood and possibly the Morlocks
• Uncanny X-Men 4
  • Old and New X-Men reunited plus more new X-Men vs. Mr. Sinister, the Marauders and Apocalypse

Here's an idea that I've been playing with over the weekend:

Wait! Stop! Right there! Hold on there! Let's back that up! Cambot, play that last part back.

This has been my basic working concept for my X-Men film franchise:

• Uncanny X-Men
  • Original X-Men vs. Magneto and Original Brotherhood
• Uncanny X-Men 2
  • New X-Men vs. Sentinels, Hellfire Club and Dark Phoenix

Does anyone else see the problem here? No? Then allow me to explain the principale of the sequel, on which all franchises are based! Pay attention now...

Okay, let's say that you and I are the producers on the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. As this will involve us shortly becoming incredibly (even more) wealthy and surrounded by beautiful women who feel free to indulge in situational lesbianism, I'm sure you'll bare with me. We've made a cute little film and now we're nervous. There's never been a supernatural pirate comedy action/adventure movie before, certainly not in recent memory, so we don't know if the public's going to go for it. So we spend half the film's budget over again on advertising, letting the people know that if they plop down their $7.50, they're not only going to get to see Captain Jack Sparrow and swordfights and ship battles, but also the pirates are really skeleton-zombie-things!

And whaddya know, the public goes for it! We run it up the flagpole and they salute. And we get the greenlight to do a sequel. Now, this is an easy job. Why? Half of it is done for us! We don't have to tell the people how funny Captain Jack Sparrow is going to be, they've already seen for themselves! So, basically we just have to give them more of the same, just bigger and badder. We've already invented the wheel, why reinvent it?

Now, could you imagine the reaction of the big studio executives who are paying for all of this if we went up to them and said that basically we're going to do the first movie all over again. We're not going to bring back Jack Sparrow or Will Turner or Elizabeth Whatshername, we're going to have a whole new cast which we're going to have to sell the public on all over again!

Bad. Idea.

The exact same thing happened in Halloween 3. They decided to get rid of Jamie Lee Curtis and Michael Myers (you know him, big guy, white William Shatner knife, has a hate-on for his family) and tell a story about a company that made evil Halloween costumes. Nobody went for it, the movie flopped, and do you know what the next movie was called?

Halloween 4: The Return of Michael Myers.

It's the same reason they didn't start with The Hobbit and then release Lord of the Rings. You don't change horses in mid-stream. They only do that in horror movies and even there, the star of the show (the monster or monsters) are still coming back for more.

You want another example? Grease 2. Grease 2 replaced the entire cast with a bunch of new blood and they went over like a Superman-can't-see-through-it lead balloon.

So the options are either do a franchise about the old X-Men or do a franchise about the new X-Men. I'd suggest the new X-Men, just because they have Wolverine and really, who goes to an X-Men movie to not see Wolverine?

So, let's have the first X-Men movie be about the new X-Men versus Magneto and the Brotherhood. Again, a little unorthodox, but let's review the bonuses. We get time to care about Jean Grey and all the rest without having to waste time on Count Nefaria and his Ani-Men (I can just now hear people asking "Of all the great villains, like Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse, Master Mold, the Brood, etc. etc... why COUNT NEFARIA?"). Not to say that the Count and his Ani-Men couldn't be done, they could and quite easily. But then, so could the Penny Plunderer, but you don’t see anyone casting Heath Ledger to play him in the next Batman movie.

Well, you did ask.

Also, in your Hellfire Club movie treatment, it seemed like the Sentinels got a little rushed. They unleash Phoenix, then kinda disappear. The Sentinels are an idea too cool to show up once and then get dropped. Maybe tie it in a bit more with the Hellfire Club plot.

 

[Herr Logan]

Wait! Stop! Right there! Hold on there! Let's back that up! Cambot, play that last part back.


Does anyone else see the problem here? No? Then allow me to explain the principale of the sequel, on which all franchises are based! Pay attention now...

Okay, let's say that you and I are the producers on the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. As this will involve us shortly becoming incredibly (even more) wealthy and surrounded by beautiful women who feel free to indulge in situational lesbianism, I'm sure you'll bare with me. We've made a cute little film and now we're nervous. There's never been a supernatural pirate comedy action/adventure movie before, certainly not in recent memory, so we don't know if the public's going to go for it. So we spend half the film's budget over again on advertising, letting the people know that if they plop down their $7.50, they're not only going to get to see Captain Jack Sparrow and swordfights and ship battles, but also the pirates are really skeleton-zombie-things!

And whaddya know, the public goes for it! We run it up the flagpole and they salute. And we get the greenlight to do a sequel. Now, this is an easy job. Why? Half of it is done for us! We don't have to tell the people how funny Captain Jack Sparrow is going to be, they've already seen for themselves! So, basically we just have to give them more of the same, just bigger and badder. We've already invented the wheel, why reinvent it?

Now, could you imagine the reaction of the big studio executives who are paying for all of this if we went up to them and said that basically we're going to do the first movie all over again. We're not going to bring back Jack Sparrow or Will Turner or Elizabeth Whatshername, we're going to have a whole new cast which we're going to have to sell the public on all over again!

Bad. Idea.

The exact same thing happened in Halloween 3. They decided to get rid of Jamie Lee Curtis and Michael Myers (you know him, big guy, white William Shatner knife, has a hate-on for his family) and tell a story about a company that made evil Halloween costumes. Nobody went for it, the movie flopped, and do you know what the next movie was called?

Halloween 4: The Return of Michael Myers.

It's the same reason they didn't start with The Hobbit and then release Lord of the Rings. You don't change horses in mid-stream. They only do that in horror movies and even there, the star of the show (the monster or monsters) are still coming back for more.

You want another example? Grease 2. Grease 2 replaced the entire cast with a bunch of new blood and they went over like a Superman-can't-see-through-it lead balloon.

So the options are either do a franchise about the old X-Men or do a franchise about the new X-Men. I'd suggest the new X-Men, just because they have Wolverine and really, who goes to an X-Men movie to not see Wolverine?

So, let's have the first X-Men movie be about the new X-Men versus Magneto and the Brotherhood. Again, a little unorthodox, but let's review the bonuses. We get time to care about Jean Grey and all the rest without having to waste time on Count Nefaria and his Ani-Men (I can just now hear people asking "Of all the great villains, like Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse, Master Mold, the Brood, etc. etc... why COUNT NEFARIA?"). Not to say that the Count and his Ani-Men couldn't be done, they could and quite easily. But then, so could the Penny Plunderer, but you don’t see anyone casting Heath Ledger to play him in the next Batman movie.

Well, you did ask.

Also, in your Hellfire Club movie treatment, it seemed like the Sentinels got a little rushed. They unleash Phoenix, then kinda disappear. The Sentinels are an idea too cool to show up once and then get dropped. Maybe tie it in a bit more with the Hellfire Club plot.

You make a good point, Zev, and I thank you for taking the time to do so.

I'm still dead set on having my first X-Men movie feature the original class, and the film directly following focus on the new team, since I'm deliberately not factoring in the audience expectation dynamics you're talking about (and you know it's not out of spite and it's not new, since I already said from the very beginning I realized the risk involved in leaving Wolverine out of the first film but diregarded it in this arena), but I respect your view on that.

I guess it would either be an easier transition or possibly a harder "goodbye" to have the 'Giant-Size X-Men' story for the second movie, depending on hoiw attached you were to the original team. This way, you'd be able to see the first team in action again and see them make the decision to leave. It shows more respect for the original team to give them a real (but temporary) send off. All of the original team would be in the third movie (Phoenix) for varying amounts of time (Jean would be a major focus through most of it, Beast would have a minor part on the team, Angel would be there for a couple of scenes and Iceman would only have a cameo at the funeral scene at the end), but they wouldn't be the team they were in the first movie. If this change was made to my franchise, Cyclops would return somewhere in the second half of the fourth movie (after leaving at the very end of the third) and the entire original team would return in the fifth movie.

If I could introduce all the new X-Men in the second movie and then do the Phoenix thing in the third, then the Sentinel plot wouldn't have to be nearly as rushed. With my original concept, I was planning on having the Sentinels forshadowed in the first movie with Trask and Lang's Project Widewake getting the greenlight, and that might still happen in the first instead of the second, since Magneto being the provokation was my original goal, although having the X-Men messing with NORAD command center (even though they're helping and the military knows this) makes matters worse. Maybe it's introduced in the first movie, Master Mold or some finished Sentinels will be seen in the second movie briefly, and then they get revealed and launched in the beginning of the third.

Taking into consideration that I'm a stubborn bastard who isn't going to play by the rules of movie marketing, what's better for the long-term development of the characters?

Thanks again for posting, Zev.

 

[Zev]

It just occured to me that Ben Browder (of Farscape and Stargate: SG-1 "fame") would make an awesome Cyclops.

Think about it. He's... well, Cyclops enough to be a straight man for the wackier and more interesting mutants ("Oh, my girlfriend eats planets! Oh, my girlfriend is a demoness clone thing of my last girlfriend! Oh, back to the planet-eating girlfriend! Oh, now my girlfriend is an amoral and somewhat reformed supervillainess!"), but snarky enough to be charming and not be a stiff fuddy-duddy.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Hey everyone, I'm finally back from my two week vacation to the UP. I didn't have a computer at my cabin so I couldn't post much of anything for a while

This has been my basic working concept for my X-Men film franchise:

• Uncanny X-Men
  • Original X-Men vs. Magneto and Original Brotherhood
• Uncanny X-Men 2
  • New X-Men vs. Sentinels, Hellfire Club and Dark Phoenix
• Uncanny X-Men 3
  • New X-Men plus Kitty Pryde vs. Mystique's Brotherhood and possibly the Morlocks
• Uncanny X-Men 4
  • Old and New X-Men reunited plus more new X-Men vs. Mr. Sinister, the Marauders and Apocalypse

Here's an idea that I've been playing with over the weekend:

Instead of going straight from the first 'Uncanny X-Men' to having the Hellfire Club and Phoenix Saga in the first sequel, I've been thinking about actually using the plots of Giant Size X-Men #1 and Nefaria/Ani-Men mission (X-Men #94-95) in 'Uncanny X-Men 2' and actually using Banshee, Thunderbird and Sunfire in it. This has several advantages and a couple of drawbacks.

I haven't read any of the really old school X-men stories, and I have a very limited knowledge of the Ani-men and I don't even know what Nefaria is so it's hard to comment on this, but I have read a good amount of the Hellfire club and the Pheonix saga, and I really love that arc, so I'd rather the movies stayed with that, just because I've always liked those stories.

Setting aside a full three-hour (or more) movie for brief introductions of all the new X-Men and giving them time to get to know each other well before Jean Grey gets her boost in power and psychic tampering by Mastermind during my truncation of the Phoenix Saga will make the emotional and dramatic impact behind the events of the story far more poignant and will not seem nearly as rushed. Wolverine's love for Jean will of course never be the a huge focus of any movie made by me, but the sense of loss by him and Storm especially, and all the other new X-Men (Cyclops' and Beast's senses of loss go without saying, as they'll have built their respective relationships with her in the first movie regardless) will be more genuine in my opinion and less forced. That's not the only interpersonal drama element that will be strengthened, of course, but it's the most extreme example.
All of the characters will be more fleshed out by showing how they began their relationship with the X-Men and how they worked as a team before things got as crazy as they did during the latter part of the Phoenix Saga. I don't feel it's a good idea to try and cram the introduction and orientation/acclimation of the new X-Men into one three hour movie on top of the battle royale with the Sentinels that leads to Jean's transformation, Mastermind's psychic seduction of Jean, the X-Men getting ambushed and kidnapped by the White Queen and her goons in Illinois, the infiltration, captivity and battles in the Hellfire Club, and the final showdowns between the X-Men and Phoenix and Xavier and Phoenix, and all the character interaction scenes in between. It's too much to do it all right in even a reasonably long movie.
There's a lot of character and relationship development between the various characters that needs some time to build. Wolverine and Nightcrawler's friendship needs some time to build, as does Nightcrawler's and Colossus' and Colossus' and Storm's, Wolverine's and Jean's and Wolverine's and Cyclops'. I want to see the fight between Angel and Wolverine in the garden in front of Jean, and it should be while Angel and Jean are still living there. Everyone's relationship with Professor X needs some time, too. There's more to explore, of course.
While I don't think back on either the Krakoa Island rescue or the Valhalla Mountain mission as my personal favorite X-Men stories, and I know that Count Nefaria and the Ani-Men aren't widely known as being among the top tier of X-Men villains, I think both stories could be done well, and the first story gives a good reason for Xavier collecting several new X-Men all at the same time, and allows most of the original X-Men to leave without seeming like ungrateful deserters. I could deal with having text on a screen in the very beginning of a movie explain that four of the five original X-Men left the team off-screen, but unless Xavier already had replacements at the ready, it doesn't seem very heroic for them to leave within a short span of time of each other. If they are captured, new X-Men are recruited to save them and the old X-Men leave knowing that there are still people to do their jobs, that's just better overall. Again, the source material is revered for a reason. A lot of it works for a reason. The Krakoa incident is a huge turning point in X-Men history and was indeed a good reason to bring in new people.
The story following that one is the first story where an X-Man actually died and stayed dead. True, Thunderbird had been in a total of three issues when he bought the farm, he wasn't popular and was killed out of necessity because he was too similar to Wolverine and apparently even just two supremely antisocial @ssholes on the team was too many (they already got rid of Sunfire in X-Men #94, and he was the worst of the three), but it was still a huge event.

So let me see if I followed you correctly here. You want to go with the Nefaria/Ani-Men plot before the Hellfire movie and make 5 movies instead of 4? I don't think that would be a bad idea, because you're right, the second movie could easily get too convulted with everything you'd have to put in there, and it would be a good way to build up the characters so we get to know them better.

But, and again I only say this because I'm basically completely [FONT=&quot]unknowledgeable about the Nefaria and the Animen, what if you split up the Hellfire/Pheonix saga into two movies instead of adding the Animen and Nefaria? End with a cliff hanger and then pick up the story in the next movie? Just a thought.[/FONT]

Personally, I'm not very fond of Krakoa, but I think it could be portrayed as very creepy and interesting, like something out of a horror movie. I have a huge, huge phobia of crabs, but I still feel compelled to use those gigantic, horrible crabs that attacked Wolverine and Banshee, because this thread is about faithfulness. It’s a very quick scene, anyway, just like in the original comic. Anyway, the whole island is alive and all its flora and fauna are psychically linked by a collective consciousness that was created during a nuclear bomb test decades ago (like Godzilla and friends), and it could be really creepy and cool.
I was planning on not having Havok and Polaris in this, but rather leave Beast with the X-Men and have him not be furry yet. This presents a problem with dispatching Krakoa the way they did in the comics, since Polaris was the crucial factor in that (she cut the gravity around Krakoa and several other X-Men blasted the island from beneath so it went all the way out of the Earth’s atmosphere). I think there’s still another way to do it, though.

The fact that some people find Count Nefaria and the Ani-Men to be corny wasn't even a factor in why I ever hesitated to use them in a movie. Never a factor. Just like I said in the Batman Safe Haven that I'd prefer not to use Clayface and Man-Bat for reasons completely unrelated to the "realism" of their powers and appearances, the same fits here; they aren't that widely considered top-tier villains. On the other hand, these two stories fit together well thematically and fit continuity perfectly. As for how the proverbial "general audience" would perceive the latter set of threats, I'll say this:
Count Nefaria's name would never change, at all. Anyone who would even consider that is a coward and shouldn't be in this thread. Don't think people would take it seriously? Go pack up your comic collection and hide it from all the “cool kids”, @sshole, your kind isn't wanted here. Here's his character history and info. His history should not be changed around too much, as in he should remain a descendant of Italian nobility no matter what, and he should probably be closely involved in international crime, illicit scientific research and development (hence, the Ani-Men) and his reasons for being a terrorist should be based on personal greed, like most classic Marvel villains. His visual appearance can be changed a bit. He doesn't need to have a monocle, necessarily. He obviously does need to have the Van Dyke facial hair. He should have some elements of one of his better known costumes, including some form of cloak or robe (not a mere trenchcoat, though... absolutely not).
If the Ani-Men seem too corny for you, again, you're in the wrong thread. There's no reason why the appearances and abilities of these characters can't be modified in such a way that they are impressive and creepy-looking in a classic sci-fi way. These are humans who committed crimes in animal-themed costumes and personas that have been turned into actual genetic hybrids with the animals they previously represented: bird, cat, ape, and frog. Nefaria was the one who had them modified, and he added a woman he turned into a dragonfly creature. Even after their transformations, they can communicate verbally with others. That's in no conceivable way "won't work." If some of them need to have voice modulators that translate their utterances into English, then so be it. Cat-Man and Ape-Man should be very easily translated visually, especially since there's already been a remake of 'The Island of Dr. Moreau' with decent creature effects that featured similar animal hybrids. Bird-Man, Frog-Man and Dragonfly may take some further consideration and deviation from their original looks in the comics, but anyone who thinks it can't be done should probably stop reading comics and watching any form of sci-fi. These are action villains. We don't need to take them seriously as "relatable" characters. They're perfect for testing out the abilities and early teamwork of the new X-Men, even though they aren't as essential to the mythos as other villains. Anyone with any imagination can see this “working” in a live action movie. You’re entitled to dislike these characters and the idea of using them in an X-Men movie, but you are not entitled to claim they “wouldn’t work” based on “realism” or how “corny” they are. Not in this thread. I apologize for belaboring this point, but I have no wish to repeat myself on this subject, so now I’ve made myself clear, and the first time someone makes an argument about the issues I specifically stated were off-limits for this thread, they will be asked to leave.

Anyway, at the end of the Valhalla mission, Nefaria gets in a plane and tries to escape, but Thunderbird grabs onto the plane and tries to stop him. At some point, in mid-flight, the plane explodes, killing Thunderbird while Banshee is trying to catch up and save him and Xavier is in telepathic contact with him.

The downsides to making this drastic change that I see right off are these:
It will not allow for the humorous costume-design scene and semi-relaxed school orientation sequences I proposed a few days ago. The X-Men should not be going to Krakoa without their famous costumes, since that mission will take a big chunk of screen time.
It will either not allow for my intended ending to the Phoenix Saga movie—where Wolverine leaves without explanation after Jean dies and then comes back just as unexpectedly, now wearing the patented X-Men belt buckle and ready to carry on as a dedicated X-Man—or it will remove a lot of the dramatic impact of it. It’s okay, though, since I still have an idea for how Wolverine can show how attached to the team he’s become and how much closer he is to his teammates, including Cyclops.

What do you all think?

I think it sounds pretty good, though I would like to see that costume secene, I liked the humor in it Like I said, I never read the Nefari, Ani Men story, so I can't really comment on wether I like it or not, but I do think it would be a good idea from the aspect of character development. I also like that you have thunderbird dying early on, I know that he was killed in the comics because no one liked him, but killing him in the movie would show the audience that being an X-men isn't just about being the Superhero and saving the day, it would show that you have a very real possiblity of not coming home.

and the point Zev makes is a pretty valid one...but, and correct me if I'm wrong because like I said, I haven't read much of the old x-men stories yet (I really need to buy the essentials...but beeing only 17 and having no job doesn't allow for that very easily) wasn't the formation of the new X-men so Xavier could rescue the old X-men or something like that? Or did they just leave? But if they were being rescued, they would still be in the movie, so it wouldn't be totally new.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Hey guys, I was thinking some more about my idea for a Wolverine Solo movie. I'll just post the first half of it, because I don't want to annoy you guys with a gigantic post, I'll post the rest of it in a little while. Tell me what you think of the beggining.

I would, as stated before, have it start with a dream sequence. Wolverine is looking through a fogged window, he can't make out what's going on outside the window very well, and he desperatley wants to, but he's afraid to break the glass because he might loose what he's viewing, and what he's viewing is a memory. Or memories.

He sees himself, as a child playing and laughing with a young red haired girl and a rugged looking boy, the faces of both blurred. The memory would flash through random happy secenes from Origin. Rose reading to him in bed, jumping into his father's arms ect. Then the dream would darken, the window becomes cold, and frost creeps along the glass, it cuts to his mother screaming at him shouting "ANIMAL!" at the top of her lungs, bodies are in the backround, but Logan can't make them out, he sees the child version of himself crying piteously on the ground. Wolverine then jerks awake, looking around to see his sheets ripped, his claws extened. Looking at the clock he sees it's 4:AM, he quickly dresses and rushes outside.

He's stalking the rouge bear like in the beggining of the Claremont/Millar mini series, and as he walks through the Canadian Wilderness he spots an old abandoned Cabin. His thoughts flash back to a different Cabin, and he see's himself cradling the body of Silver fox and shouting and crying, it then cuts to a quick cut of a ferocious battle between himself and Sabertooth. Logan shrugs off the memory and continues on.

I'd have a quick five to ten minute secene here of Wolverine stalking and traking the Bear, to display his animalistic side and animalistic senses. This would show the audience, much more then the movies ever did, the wild side of Wolverine. After finding and killing the bear, we would get a quick shot of Wolverine's face, and we would see him looking at the dead animal with pity, and even a bit or remorse. It would cut to a bar, and he would find the hunter who shot the poisioned arrow into the bear, Causing it to run rampant and kill innocents. Wolverine would explain what the hunter had inadvertantly done, and tells him he can come quietly or get himself hurt. The hunter turns and smashes a mug into his face, and Wolverine smiles to himself saying, "bub, I hoped you'd do something like that."

It would then Cut back to an apartment, and Wolverine would be mulling about, when a voice chimes into his head, professor X. They would casually talk for a bit, prof. X asking him why Wolverine seemed so please, with Wolverine responding that he had to kill a bear. the Prof. would ask if this is what made him happy, with a somewhat dissapointed tone, and Wolverine would quickly reply that that didn't make him happy, but beating the snot out of the bastard that turned the animal into a savage killer did. This would display another important aspect of Wolverine's Character, that he doesn't hunt and kill animals for enjoyment, he respects life. Eventually the Prof. would tell Wolverine that the reason he contacted him was because a large amount of his mail had been returned. When Wolverine asks from who, the Professor replies, "a woman named Mariko," A dark look passes over Wolverine's face and he tells the Proffessor that he may be away from the mansion longer then he expected.

Basically, the first act of this movie is all set up, but also important character development that I believe was left out in the X-men movies. Wolverine's more animalistic abilities, which really were barley touched upon, and also his compassion. We would learn that Wolverine has a connection with Animals, and we would see how tortured he is by his memories.