Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League - Part 5

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Dude, this is like, totally gonna blow your mind, but there are people who actually like them.

No no, I'm aware that there are plenty of people who like bad movies. I could name a few objectively bad movies that I enjoy too, BvS isn't one of them. Either way acting like WB not letting Snyder finish JL off was the problem is ridiculous.
 
No no, I'm aware that there are plenty of people who like bad movies. I could name a few objectively bad movies that I enjoy too, BvS isn't one of them. Either way acting like WB not letting Snyder finish JL off was the problem is ridiculous.

stop it

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No no, I'm aware that there are plenty of people who like bad movies. I could name a few objectively bad movies that I enjoy too, BvS isn't one of them. Either way acting like WB not letting Snyder finish JL off was the problem is ridiculous.

I think the issue with it is (full disclosure, I LOVE MoS and will defend any point in it til he proverbial cows come home, and I reasonably like the BVS:UE although still have many problems with it) that when you have invested as much money as they have in the project, it's simply hubris to think that, six months or so from release, they can:

- get a new director,
- reshoot the vast majority of a major effects driven picture,
- have something as complex a recreating the lower half of a man's face

There is no way, in that time period, that you're going to get a 'Joss Whedon' film, and the result is the strange, unbalanced mess that we got.

I get that a project like this had too much invested in it to scrap completely and redo from stage one, but by doing this half Snyer half (rushed) Whedon hybrid they arguably did more damage than if they had let Snyder finish it himself. At least with that you could say it was consistent, albeit off the mark of what we wanted, but now we can do a Flashpoint movie, recast and reboot.

That's my two cents.
 
I think the issue with it is (full disclosure, I LOVE MoS and will defend any point in it til he proverbial cows come home, and I reasonably like the BVS:UE although still have many problems with it) that when you have invested as much money as they have in the project, it's simply hubris to think that, six months or so from release, they can:

- get a new director,
- reshoot the vast majority of a major effects driven picture,
- have something as complex a recreating the lower half of a man's face

There is no way, in that time period, that you're going to get a 'Joss Whedon' film, and the result is the strange, unbalanced mess that we got.

I get that a project like this had too much invested in it to scrap completely and redo from stage one, but by doing this half Snyer half (rushed) Whedon hybrid they arguably did more damage than if they had let Snyder finish it himself. At least with that you could say it was consistent, albeit off the mark of what we wanted, but now we can do a Flashpoint movie, recast and reboot.

That's my two cents.

I can respect that opinion, and see how you got there. Here's why I still disagree though: I personally hated BvS. Just hated it. And that's despite loving the characters Snyder had to work with for that film. JL, I was able to actually enjoy. I wouldn't say it's a good movie, but I was able to enjoy it. now that's personal opinion.
What's not is that the executives at WB saw what Snyder had done, and, despite knowing it would cost them many millions of extra dollars, they thought it was so bad that they ditched him even at that expense. Now, don't get me wrong, executives can be wrong like anyone else, but one thing they place above all else is making money, and if they thought it was so bad that they were still willing to spend the money that says something.
On top of that, both critics and audience still rated Justice League as better than BvS. Meaning, while Whedon couldn't save the film, he at least improved it enough that it was better than Snyder alone on BvS was.
 
I can respect that opinion, and see how you got there. Here's why I still disagree though: I personally hated BvS. Just hated it. And that's despite loving the characters Snyder had to work with for that film. JL, I was able to actually enjoy. I wouldn't say it's a good movie, but I was able to enjoy it. now that's personal opinion.
What's not is that the executives at WB saw what Snyder had done, and, despite knowing it would cost them many millions of extra dollars, they thought it was so bad that they ditched him even at that expense. Now, don't get me wrong, executives can be wrong like anyone else, but one thing they place above all else is making money, and if they thought it was so bad that they were still willing to spend the money that says something.
On top of that, both critics and audience still rated Justice League as better than BvS. Meaning, while Whedon couldn't save the film, he at least improved it enough that it was better than Snyder alone on BvS was.

I can also see that opinion, and I must admit the first time I saw JL I thought it was a nice course correction (a bit blunt and on the nose but hey, Whedon was given six months, he's gonna go with easy jokes).

As an exec though, surely the easier PR is to blame it all on the director if stuff fails. If it had purely been a Snyder film, and had been awful, which it could easily have been - all we have seen are out of context snippets - they could have said it was his poor directin, but don't worry, we're doing Flashpoint and moving on from the "Snyder-vision" to something more pleasing.

With this, we are all at the point of home release, nobody really knows who did what or who's to blame for what, and it still did very poor business.
 
And yet the same people always skip in looking to engage with them and fill the board with the same endless debates.

I see them more as bouts--like in boxing. After so many posts we all need to break, head for the corner posts, and for a swig of water.

Once we're ready we go back for the bell ring.
 
And yet the same people always skip in looking to engage with them and fill the board with the same endless debates.

I see them more as bouts--like in boxing. After so many posts we all need to break, head for the corner posts, and for a swig of water.

Once we're ready we go back for the bell ring.

Pretty much. Guilty of it myself occasionally. :loco:
 
I can respect that opinion, and see how you got there. Here's why I still disagree though: I personally hated BvS. Just hated it. And that's despite loving the characters Snyder had to work with for that film. JL, I was able to actually enjoy. I wouldn't say it's a good movie, but I was able to enjoy it. now that's personal opinion.
What's not is that the executives at WB saw what Snyder had done, and, despite knowing it would cost them many millions of extra dollars, they thought it was so bad that they ditched him even at that expense. Now, don't get me wrong, executives can be wrong like anyone else, but one thing they place above all else is making money, and if they thought it was so bad that they were still willing to spend the money that says something.
On top of that, both critics and audience still rated Justice League as better than BvS. Meaning, while Whedon couldn't save the film, he at least improved it enough that it was better than Snyder alone on BvS was.

I'm in the same camp as you with BvS. It simply wasn't the way I wanted to see characters I loved adapted. I thought it was poorly written, poorly put together, and above all, fundamentally misunderstood the characters it was handling.

However, I still don't blame Snyder for the overall mess the DC film characters are in now. At least, not completely. I do believe he was simply the wrong man for the job. He just didn't get the characters, and I don't believe he would have given me a JL I wanted to see.

But at the end of the day, the WB execs pegged him for the job. A guy who hadn't really given them a bona-fide hit in quite a while. He'd had moderate success, but 300 had been his last really big hit. Even then, his best films all dealt with very dark material, and they looked at that went "Yep! This is the guy for Superman, and the guy to handle our entire comic catalogue!" All of this based on...what exactly? And this is coming from someone who didn't hate MOS...I'm mixed on it. But still, what in Snyder's work would have made you go to him to do a Superman film?

After MOS, which made solid money but got mixed reviews, they decide to make Synder the guy to build their cinematic universe. Again, someone who just produced a film that got them mixed reviews, and made decent money. Why would you choose that? Imagine if Iron Man had been received that way? You bet your bottom dollar Marvel would have gone back to the drawing board and thought things through a bit.

But not only does WB make Snyder their go to guy, they force him to rush into expanding the universe. And not only do they do this, they schedule the start of JL so they literally have no time to step back and see how fans and critics react to BvS.

So, at the end of the day, I'm still putting the majority of the blame on WB. Do I think Snyder creatively just doesn't get the characters? Yes, I do. But it's then the job of the studio to recognize that, and give themselves time to asses their situation and change things. They didn't, because they were greedy and they wanted to get to what Marvel had without putting in any of the work or planning to do it. Snyder was a director who was trying to stay true to his vision. Yeah, his vision was fundamentally flawed (in my opinion), but WB needed to be smart enough to realize this, or get themselves a Kevin Feige type would could have realized this and reigned him in.

But the very fact that WB looked at Snyder's body of work and thought "this is the best guy for our entire superhero universe" shows you just how disconnected from their own source material they were.
 
I'm saying that my opinion is backed up by fact. But there are plenty of objectively bad movies that some people still like. You're also free to like Transformers Dark side of the Moon if you like. You'd still be wrong to say it's a good movie, just like it's wrong to imply that Justice League would've been a good movie if WB had just let Snyder finish his "vision".

Objectively bad films. Hmmm... I haven't heard that argument before.

So tell me, what is the exact criteria by which one measures whether one is an objectively good or bad film? Who chooses that criteria? Remember, we are talking about objective methodology here, so you would have to be specific, and you cannot use an appeal to authority as a means to make your case (eg, "Most people think Transformers Dark of the Moon is a terrible movie, so therefore it's a terrible movie").

What you are actually doing here is creating a straw man argument. You phrase it as "If you say Transformers Dark of the Moon is a good movie, you'd be wrong," because when a person is saying that, what they are really saying is "I think it's a good movie," in which case they cannot be wrong for thinking it's a good movie. That person is not making a definitive claim that this movie is a good movie and that all whom think otherwise are "wrong." It's a person giving his/her opinion; however oftentimes, unfortunately, people mask their opinions as objective statements and, well, that's just the intellectually lazy internet age we live it. But opinion is still opinion no matter how one words it, and art is subjective.
 
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Are they looking at Darkseid here ? This must be after Steppenwolf goes back through Boom tube to Apokolips.
 
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Are they looking at Darkseid here ? This must be after Steppenwolf goes back through Boom tube to Apokolips.

Yea that's what I think. Man...it sucks to see how many group shots Snyder did...and how little were i the movie.
 
I wonder if in Snyder's version Aquaman actually did something worthwhile.
 
I'm in the same camp as you with BvS. It simply wasn't the way I wanted to see characters I loved adapted. I thought it was poorly written, poorly put together, and above all, fundamentally misunderstood the characters it was handling.

It's all the same over and over and over again... Some people thought The Black Suit deleted scene was a boring filler with Clark walking about in the ship, some people got teary-eyed just from watching that one short clip... the visuals, the atmosphere, the pacing, that look on Cavill's face (and I don't mean there's not that crazy moustache removal CGI), the symbolism where he turns away from the black suit and his face leaves the shadows and enters the light, that Snyder's visual storytelling, it was the moment where Kal El turns into what Jor El wanted him to be, just in case people did not realize that (and yeah, they cut it out, of course, because we needed more cringy dialogues and jokes :o), the music... it was just fantastic. Yet some people say it was a boring filler scene, go figure...

Same goes for BvS, some people consider it "poorly written, poorly put together, and above all, fundamentally misunderstood the characters it was handling", some people think it's the exact opposite. If you are really interested in opinions of others, go read BvS and JL threads that debate it, at this point it's superfluous to start a new discussion on this topic after all those incredibly long essays that were written already discussing the topic into quite a vast depth.

And I for one thought the characters were handled appropriately. Lex was an intelligent philanthropist businessman on the outside, such a devilish cold-hearted schemer, an egomaniac full of complexes on the inside. And of course had a problematic relationship with his father. Lex in the nutshell.
Clark was not The Superman until the very end, don't forget Man of Steel is a movie about a man who would one day become the Superman, hence the title, the character, etc., it's a 3 movie journey for him, now that's what I call a trilogy. It's one long cohesive story. From a young man who's perplexed and does not understand his place in the world to the ideal of hope. The only comparable trilogy is Nolan's TDKT, where Bruce goes from a crime fighter to the symbol he always wanted Batman to be. Plus Supes sacrifices his life for the humanity, the most Supermanish thing ever right after saving a cat from a tree. :woot:
BvS' Bruce was a darker take on the character, it's not Nolan's retired after some years Batman, it's an older Batman who's been a vigilante for over 20 years, slowly slipping into his obsessive and damaged self. Loved every aspect of that, how the story unfolds, from the Martha trauma, through the Metropolis battle, futility of his endeavour, Lex's machinations, into his ultimate redemption.
DD was a genetically-engineered Superman's murdered.
Lois was an investigative journalist.

F************* I got baited into this again. :funny:

And the same thing applies for both movies, BvS and JL were so f***ed up by the studio. We know that the original cut of BvS was 4 hours long to tell the whole story, and even the 31 minutes of UE made a huge difference (you most probably don't want to put a 4 hour movie into the cinema but the UE should have been the theatrical version, the shorter version really damaged the movie). JL was supposed to be 3 hours long and we got only 2 hours. Plus, of course, it was heavily redone, rescored, etc.
The only thing you can raise against Snyder is, he does not think in the business terms, Watchmen, BvS, all 4 hour movies, JL nearly 3 hours, not pandering to the lowest common denominator, etc.

Omg, these debates again... :funny:
 
I'm in the same camp as you with BvS. It simply wasn't the way I wanted to see characters I loved adapted. I thought it was poorly written, poorly put together, and above all, fundamentally misunderstood the characters it was handling.

However, I still don't blame Snyder for the overall mess the DC film characters are in now. At least, not completely. I do believe he was simply the wrong man for the job. He just didn't get the characters, and I don't believe he would have given me a JL I wanted to see.

But at the end of the day, the WB execs pegged him for the job. A guy who hadn't really given them a bona-fide hit in quite a while. He'd had moderate success, but 300 had been his last really big hit. Even then, his best films all dealt with very dark material, and they looked at that went "Yep! This is the guy for Superman, and the guy to handle our entire comic catalogue!" All of this based on...what exactly? And this is coming from someone who didn't hate MOS...I'm mixed on it. But still, what in Snyder's work would have made you go to him to do a Superman film?

After MOS, which made solid money but got mixed reviews, they decide to make Synder the guy to build their cinematic universe. Again, someone who just produced a film that got them mixed reviews, and made decent money. Why would you choose that? Imagine if Iron Man had been received that way? You bet your bottom dollar Marvel would have gone back to the drawing board and thought things through a bit.

But not only does WB make Snyder their go to guy, they force him to rush into expanding the universe. And not only do they do this, they schedule the start of JL so they literally have no time to step back and see how fans and critics react to BvS.

So, at the end of the day, I'm still putting the majority of the blame on WB. Do I think Snyder creatively just doesn't get the characters? Yes, I do. But it's then the job of the studio to recognize that, and give themselves time to asses their situation and change things. They didn't, because they were greedy and they wanted to get to what Marvel had without putting in any of the work or planning to do it. Snyder was a director who was trying to stay true to his vision. Yeah, his vision was fundamentally flawed (in my opinion), but WB needed to be smart enough to realize this, or get themselves a Kevin Feige type would could have realized this and reigned him in.

But the very fact that WB looked at Snyder's body of work and thought "this is the best guy for our entire superhero universe" shows you just how disconnected from their own source material they were.

Nailed it.
 
Ignoring all the bait posted above...

I dont want WB bringing back Zack for another DC movie. They dont deserve him after what they did to him during JL, and I'm pretty sure he doesnt want to either.

Cant wait to see what he does next.
 
Nr_NJj2_Joyplyv_WS6a_KHk4h3_R9xtu6_Grsr-_Qzvrqf_O_g.jpg


Are they looking at Darkseid here ? This must be after Steppenwolf goes back through Boom tube to Apokolips.

Not necessarily, there is already a scene of them watching Steppenwolf get taken away; this could just be Snyder's version which I'm sure was better because in this pic Flash isn't lying there like a bump on a log.
 
Not necessarily, there is already a scene of them watching Steppenwolf get taken away; this could just be Snyder's version which I'm sure was better because in this pic Flash isn't lying there like a bump on a log.

Presumably they were going to catch a glimpse of Darkseid on the other end of the boomtube when Steppenwolf is taken away. So you're probably both right.
 
It's all the same over and over and over again... Some people thought The Black Suit deleted scene was a boring filler with Clark walking about in the ship, some people got teary-eyed just from watching that one short clip... the visuals, the atmosphere, the pacing, that look on Cavill's face (and I don't mean there's not that crazy moustache removal CGI), the symbolism where he turns away from the black suit and his face leaves the shadows and enters the light, that Snyder's visual storytelling, it was the moment where Kal El turns into what Jor El wanted him to be, just in case people did not realize that (and yeah, they cut it out, of course, because we needed more cringy dialogues and jokes :o), the music... it was just fantastic. Yet some people say it was a boring filler scene, go figure...

Same goes for BvS, some people consider it "poorly written, poorly put together, and above all, fundamentally misunderstood the characters it was handling", some people think it's the exact opposite. If you are really interested in opinions of others, go read BvS and JL threads that debate it, at this point it's superfluous to start a new discussion on this topic after all those incredibly long essays that were written already discussing the topic into quite a vast depth.

And I for one thought the characters were handled appropriately. Lex was an intelligent philanthropist businessman on the outside, such a devilish cold-hearted schemer, an egomaniac full of complexes on the inside. And of course had a problematic relationship with his father. Lex in the nutshell.
Clark was not The Superman until the very end, don't forget Man of Steel is a movie about a man who would one day become the Superman, hence the title, the character, etc., it's a 3 movie journey for him, now that's what I call a trilogy. It's one long cohesive story. From a young man who's perplexed and does not understand his place in the world to the ideal of hope. The only comparable trilogy is Nolan's TDKT, where Bruce goes from a crime fighter to the symbol he always wanted Batman to be. Plus Supes sacrifices his life for the humanity, the most Supermanish thing ever right after saving a cat from a tree. :woot:
BvS' Bruce was a darker take on the character, it's not Nolan's retired after some years Batman, it's an older Batman who's been a vigilante for over 20 years, slowly slipping into his obsessive and damaged self. Loved every aspect of that, how the story unfolds, from the Martha trauma, through the Metropolis battle, futility of his endeavour, Lex's machinations, into his ultimate redemption.
DD was a genetically-engineered Superman's murdered.
Lois was an investigative journalist.

F************* I got baited into this again. :funny:

And the same thing applies for both movies, BvS and JL were so f***ed up by the studio. We know that the original cut of BvS was 4 hours long to tell the whole story, and even the 31 minutes of UE made a huge difference (you most probably don't want to put a 4 hour movie into the cinema but the UE should have been the theatrical version, the shorter version really damaged the movie). JL was supposed to be 3 hours long and we got only 2 hours. Plus, of course, it was heavily redone, rescored, etc.
The only thing you can raise against Snyder is, he does not think in the business terms, Watchmen, BvS, all 4 hour movies, JL nearly 3 hours, not pandering to the lowest common denominator, etc.

Omg, these debates again... :funny:

I get it.

I see an orange and you see orange juice if you squeeze it, metaphorically speaking.
 
F************* I got baited into this again. :funny:

I don't think you read my entire post....otherwise you would have realized that at no point was I trying to bait anyone into debating BVS with me. I've had those debates, and frankly, there's not much left to be said. Snyder presented characters I love in a way I fundamentally disagree with. You didnt, that's fine.

That wasn't the point of my post, my point was that I don't think Snyder deserves the blame for the state the DC film universe is in. I put the qualifying statements that I actually really don't like BVS in to show people that I'm not defending him because I was a fan of the films. That was the point of my post, and the fact that you took one small paragraph of my entire statement and focused on that instead of the main focus of my post shows me that it's possible a part of you still wants to engage in the debates about Snydwrs films. And that's fine, but that wasn't the intent of my post.
 
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