7.07 - Wrath - Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[The Incredible Hulk]

Minor detail. We have never seen Lana at the ISIS foundation beyond her spy room. The foundation existed for months. Can we really be sure that Lana didn't help anyone at all? We can't. Because like many important things this seasons it's another thing we can only speculate about. Hell she even had a receptionist. People were sitting waiting in the background. And I doubt those were just paid to play cover.

I didnt say that Lana didnt help anyone at Isis. However, Isis was just a cover for her "batcave" spying on Lex which surely wasnt helping any of the meteor infected people. So any good she actually did would've been incidental of it, not the intended purpose of it.

Also we were only discussing the spy room I think. She is not harming anyone with that. Herself maybe yes. Because Lex knew she was watching. But she wasn't putting anyone in danger other than herself. Again I would love to remind everyone that if it wasn't for Lana spying Clark would have never known what happened to Kara in the last episode. The first thing Lana did was call Clark to tell him. I thought that was 'saving' someone's life.

Again an incedental effect of it but not its intended purpose. let me clarify, the Lana spying on Lex thing doesnt bother me, but the people who are trying to equate it to what Ollie and the JLA are doing with 33.1 are off base.

But I guess that doesn't count. Also if it hadn't been for the spying no one would know about Scion. As much as Lex said it's no secret...no one knew about it so that makes it a secret. A dangerous one to Clark and Kara.

No one still knows what Scion is, and if anything Lana and Clark getting involved in it made it worse.

 

[SamuraiSon6]

what was the very last thing lana said this episode, our audio flicked out for literally the last second of the show........

 

[triplet]

Anyone else notice that Mark Snow's name isn't in the end credits anymore?



In IMDB, his last credited episode was Phantom.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

you still watch the credits?

 

[mellyM]

I was too tired last night to explain why I disliked Chloe so much in that scene, and why I didnt share the opinion that she's this truly loyal friend that deserves my gratitude for protecting my favourite character, but I dont have to, because you just nailed my thoughts there.

Thank you.

I'm pretty sure Chloe has redeemed herself by now for what she did back in Season 2, she was sorry, realized it was wrong, vowed to never cross that line again and she hasn't. She's been a good friend to Clark since and especially since she discovered his secret, so I have no problem with what she told Lana.

I don't know, I mean my only character bias is Clark, I could care less about any of the females on the show, and I certainly have no preference in who Clark is dating, though Lana makes the most sense with the canon of the show. So every time I defend one I always feel like it'll be taken as character bias.

 

[AgentPat]

"It will take her some time to get over what Lex did to her."

What did Lex actually DO to Lana besides slap her and inject her with fake hormones to make her believe she was pregnant?

Still waiting on an answer to this one, folks.

You know what? We, as the audience, just have no idea how much everyone knows. And that's kind of the point of our contention.

Actually, the point of contention seems to be character motivation and 'ship bias, the latter of which drives me BONKERS. This isn't K-Site, Sweet or TWoP. Is it possible for a post to be written without using silly 'ship-based name conjunctions like "Clana," "Lexana," "Clex," or "Chlana?"

In general response (not directing this to anybody in particular), it helps to analyze what's actually shown in the ep vs. make assumptions about ulterior motives and side effects. There's plenty of metaphors IN the episode to debate vs. arguing what the characters do and don't know. For example, Lana throwing an old photo of herself across the room and breaking the glass was a nice metaphor for her breaking her own facade in Clark's eyes. The photo was Lana from the first season with her horse. It directly relates back to the opening horseback riding scene where Clark tells Lana he's noticed she's become distant. Her actions later tie back to the first lines of the episode: "It's good to know I can still beat you at something." There's so many different ways of interpreting that.

...I don't know, I mean my only character bias is Clark, I could care less about any of the females on the show, and I certainly have no preference in who Clark is dating, though Lana makes the most sense with the canon of the show. So every time I defend one I always feel like it'll be taken as character bias.

I feel your pain, Melly. I could give a rat's patootie who Clark dates, but "competition" for him ended in the second season. It's all about HIS changing perceptions and desires now that intrigue me at this point.

 

[spark627]

"It will take her some time to get over what Lex did to her."

What did Lex actually DO to Lana besides slap her and inject her with fake hormones to make her believe she was pregnant?

If it's not the fake baby, it's gotta be something more horrible than snagging a few cells or sending her the wrong kind of flowers for her B-Day. She went all La Femme Nikita on Lex *before* she got Clark's powers. After the powers, she choked Grant for not running a story, kicked Lois across the room putting her in the hospital, choked Lex twice and was about to kill him before Clark showed up. If Lana wanted Lex stopped, she could have went to the police with her evidence. No... she wanted vengeance, and she wasn't afraid to get her hands bloody. Her words, not mine.

Well, he also hit her and threatened her life.

 

[knight]

what was the very last thing lana said this episode, our audio flicked out for literally the last second of the show........

similiar situation here, I'm very glad you're asking this, I need to know myself. During that particular scene I just couldn't get over how much Tom looked like a young Superman, so while Lana was finishing up her last sentence right before the credits, I was talking to myself: Holy **** is he starting to look like our young man of steel" and I missed what she said

 

[spark627]

She said something like 'i need to know you'll love me no matter what'

 

[jr24tw]

Why should I not compare it to the JL or Oliver for that matter? Last Season started out with Oliver having Lex kidnapped, tested and held prisoner. One of the guys went overboard and added his own kind of hostage to the mix. It's the same thing Lana did with Lionel. And Marylin was the same way as that guy. That comparison sticks. No matter how you turn it around 'just because it's GA'.

Lana has made it clear that one reason to watch Lex is to protect herself and the people she loves. I don't doubt that for a second. If all she really wanted was blood she would have shoot Lex when she was claimed as dead. So for me it's not just...

Again an incedental effect of it but not its intended purpose.

Lana said it herself in this episode. No one is doing anything. For once Lana is the one not sitting around waiting for the next time she is the damsel in distress. Yet all people see is revenge, and revenge only. Chloe doesn't seem to be interested in what either Luthor is up to. Neither is Clark. Lois still wants to expose Lex but doesn't have anything juicy. What is one supposed to do? Wait around and sit down for coffee and chat. Till the next bomb lands on the doorstep? Wouldn't anyone rather keep tabs on the guy?

 

[knight]

Why should I not compare it to the JL or Oliver for that matter? Last Season started out with Oliver having Lex kidnapped, tested and held prisoner. One of the guys went overboard and added his own kind of hostage to the mix. It's the same thing Lana did with Lionel. And Marylin was the same way as that guy. That comparison sticks. No matter how you turn it around 'just because it's GA'.

Lana has made it clear that one reason to watch Lex is to protect herself and the people she loves. I don't doubt that for a second. If all she really wanted was blood she would have shoot Lex when she was claimed as dead. So for me it's not just...



Lana said it herself in this episode. No one is doing anything. For once Lana is the one not sitting around waiting for the next time she is the damsel in distress. Yet all people see is revenge, and revenge only. Chloe doesn't seem to be interested in what either Luthor is up to. Neither is Clark. Lois still wants to expose Lex but doesn't have anything juicy. What is one supposed to do? Wait around and sit down for coffee and chat. Till the next bomb lands on the doorstep? Wouldn't anyone rather keep tabs on the guy?

worded beautifully, which is why Lana going all Batman on us doesn't bother me in the slightest, it makes perfect sense, she has a fully logical reason for doing so and it allows Clark and Lana's relationship to start taking a step towards the end. Which is what we all want, so you won't see me complaining whatsoever, S7 is shaping up to be pretty f'ng decent in my book

 

[AgentPat]

Well, he also hit her and threatened her life.

Slap, hit, same difference. I don't recall him ever threatening her life though. She said to him, "what are you going to do, kill me?" And Clark and Chloe were worried that Lex would hurt Lana just to spite Clark, but I don't recall an actual thread by Lex being made. He threatened Chloe point blank, but never Lana.

Clearly, hitting her and drugging her is what made her snap. His actions were utterly villainous, and we as an audience can see where she's coming from in wanting revenge. Which is pretty much the whole point, 'cause from Clark's POV, what other reasons would she have to want to kill Lex? He knows it will take a while for her to "get over what Lex did to her."

 

[avidreader]

I'm pretty sure Chloe has redeemed herself by now for what she did back in Season 2, she was sorry, realized it was wrong, vowed to never cross that line again and she hasn't. She's been a good friend to Clark since and especially since she discovered his secret, so I have no problem with what she told Lana.

I don't know, I mean my only character bias is Clark, I could care less about any of the females on the show, and I certainly have no preference in who Clark is dating, though Lana makes the most sense with the canon of the show. So every time I defend one I always feel like it'll be taken as character bias.

Well my opinion of what she said, was not swayed by what she did in Season 2. She has said sorry, Clark has forgiven her and I have forgiven her too.

I just didnt like the way she confronted Lana on the issue and the conclusions that she drew. Chloe has appointed herself as Clark's number one protector, and she doesnt like the methods that Lana has undertaken. Does that make Lana's protection and dedication to Clark any less loyal just because Chloe doesnt approve?

 

[RakuMon]

Slap, hit, same difference. I don't recall him ever threatening her life though. She said to him, "what are you going to do, kill me?" And Clark and Chloe were worried that Lex would hurt Lana just to spite Clark, but I don't recall an actual thread by Lex being made. He threatened Chloe point blank, but never Lana.

Clearly, hitting her and drugging her is what made her snap. His actions were utterly villainous, and we as an audience can see where she's coming from in wanting revenge. Which is pretty much the whole point, 'cause from Clark's POV, what other reasons would she have to want to kill Lex? He knows it will take a while for her to "get over what Lex did to her."

Well, to be fair, having someone clone you without your consent is a pretty devious and unethical thing to do.

Clark could be talking about that you know.

 

[Whiteflag]

I'm pretty sure Chloe has redeemed herself by now for what she did back in Season 2, she was sorry, realized it was wrong, vowed to never cross that line again and she hasn't. She's been a good friend to Clark since and especially since she discovered his secret, so I have no problem with what she told Lana.

I don't know, I mean my only character bias is Clark, I could care less about any of the females on the show, and I certainly have no preference in who Clark is dating...

I fully agree!

 

[mellyM]

Well my opinion of what she said, was not swayed by what she did in Season 2. She has said sorry, Clark has forgiven her and I have forgiven her too.

I just didnt like the way she confronted Lana on the issue and the conclusions that she drew. Chloe has appointed herself as Clark's number one protector, and she doesnt like the methods that Lana has undertaken. Does that make Lana's protection and dedication to Clark any less loyal just because Chloe doesnt approve?

her methods are dangerous and could indirectly compromise Clark's safety. But I'm not going to go on about it too much, because I understood where Chloe was coming from, and I understand what Lana *thinks* she's doing. But she headed down a very dark path, and I think both Clark and Chloe see that.

 

[AgentPat]

Well, to be fair, having someone clone you without your consent is a pretty devious and unethical thing to do.

Totally agree. Would you be driven to kill somebody for doing that to you though?

Clark could be talking about that you know.

Could be. Hard to say given the line, because "did to her" implies physical assault vs. unethical use of a few cells. It's a gray area that will hopefully be resolved in a future episode.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Why should I not compare it to the JL or Oliver for that matter? Last Season started out with Oliver having Lex kidnapped, tested and held prisoner. One of the guys went overboard and added his own kind of hostage to the mix. It's the same thing Lana did with Lionel. And Marylin was the same way as that guy. That comparison sticks. No matter how you turn it around 'just because it's GA'.

if you think the crux of my argument was that it was OK 'just because it's GA' then you weren't paying attention. i said the MOTIVE is what differentiates it. Oliver was doing it for the public good. Lana was doing it for her own selfish reasons to get back at the guy who scorned her. If she was so worried about protecting people as opposed to settling a score she wouldnt have had Lex's nuts in a vise a few hours after she got supercharged.

Lana has made it clear that one reason to watch Lex is to protect herself and the people she loves. I don't doubt that for a second. If all she really wanted was blood she would have shoot Lex when she was claimed as dead. So for me it's not just...

Well It's impossible to tell what she really wants since she's so inconsistent from one episode to the next.

Lana said it herself in this episode. No one is doing anything. For once Lana is the one not sitting around waiting for the next time she is the damsel in distress.

Although that's exactly what she's been numerous times this season, just from other people besides Lex.

Yet all people see is revenge, and revenge only. Chloe doesn't seem to be interested in what either Luthor is up to. Neither is Clark. Lois still wants to expose Lex but doesn't have anything juicy. What is one supposed to do? Wait around and sit down for coffee and chat. Till the next bomb lands on the doorstep? Wouldn't anyone rather keep tabs on the guy?

LOL as if setting up an overly elaborate surveillance system was her only option here.

 

[triplet]

you still watch the credits?

Yeah, to see who did what in the show if I wanted to mention it in my review...

Like the DP for Wrath is Brian Pearson.

Never heard of him before. I'm not sure I'm going to mention the photography in my review of this episode, but I always check just in case...

This time I noticed that Mark Snow wasn't in the credits under "Music"....

It was a guy with a french sounding name.

 

[avidreader]

her methods are dangerous and could indirectly compromise Clark's safety. But I'm not going to go on about it too much, because I understood where Chloe was coming from, and I understand what Lana *thinks* she's doing. But she headed down a very dark path, and I think both Clark and Chloe see that.

I dont disagree with any of that, but I think Chloe's approach to Lana was a little too high and mighty. This is Lana she's talking to, not Lex.

 

[jr24tw]

I just didnt like the way she confronted Lana on the issue and the conclusions that she drew. Chloe has appointed herself as Clark's number one protector, and she doesnt like the methods that Lana has undertaken. Does that make Lana's protection and dedication to Clark any less loyal just because Chloe doesnt approve?

Honestly it pisses me off that they went there. Due to the writers strike and scripts needing to be rewritten they ditched the whole Lana/Kara 'showdown' that was supposed to take place. At least from what I last heard. Instead they have it done by Lana/Chloe. You will get a clearer picture what it is about soon. And who will eventually 'loose' that one.

if you think the crux of my argument was that it was OK 'just because it's GA' then you weren't paying attention. i said the MOTIVE is what differentiates it. Oliver was doing it for the public good. Lana was doing it for her own selfish reasons to get back at the guy who scorned her.

How about Lex's good? Lex wasn't superpowered anymore. So if anything had gone wrong Lex could have been killed. He would have (and Lana too) if Clark hadn't arrived in time to blow out the fire. Also couldn't it haven been tested any other way than having Lex kidnapped, tested, held hostage and potentially tortured? Testing whether someone has powers or not could be achieved in many other ways without going to such extremes.

LOL as if setting up an overly elaborate surveillance system was her only option here.

Ok then. Is there a safer way than just watching from afar? Because to me that is safer than any other option. But hey you have an alternative one lets hear it. I'm open to suggestions.

 

[AgentPat]

I don't disagree with any of that, but I think Chloe's approach to Lana was a little too high and mighty. This is Lana she's talking to, not Lex.

Yes, but look at what she did. Did Lex ever directly put Lois in the hospital? Chloe tried to worn Lana about Lex last season and Lana's reply was she was nobody's prey. Maybe it was time for a more direct approach? Lana's actions put herself and Clark back on Lex's radar, and that's never a good thing.

BTW... on a different topic, one of the assumptions fans had for this ep would be that Lana would see Clark's restraint with having godlike powers as a good thing, but the episode went in a completely opposite direction. Lana berated Clark for not using his abilities and being afraid to get his hands bloody. Besides the impressions she left on the characters around her, what did Lana learn from the experience? Was there any "good" in giving her Clark's powers? I mean, besides the supersex LOL. That might make for a better discussion, I dunno.

 

[TWistim]

Originally Posted by Captivated
Can anyone honestly tell me (I know it's a tough call for you Lana haters) WHAT the difference is, between Lana and Oliver?!

Your argument sounds good on the surface as there are similarities between what Oliver and Lana are doing. Both are trying to bring down Lex. Both believe that the end justifies the means. But the actions and motives behind their efforts differ quite a bit. For one thing, Oliver is not pretending to be all sweetness and light and then hiding his real intent behind a humanitarian front. (His humanitarian acts are done anonymously.) Lana has been projecting a false image but because of the effect of absorbing Clark’s powers she has now been exposed. Now she’s admitting to Clark I’m not who you think I am. Up until this episode she’s played the part pretty well with him. She's been hiding her secret operations from Clark because she knows he would disapprove. Oliver didn’t try to hide his operation against Lex from Clark; he tried to recruit Clark to join him. He is not acting alone and out of vindictive purposes.

And while you are defending Lana, how do you defend the fact that Lana kidnapped and had Lionel tortured. Granted Lionel may have it coming to him, but do you really believe that two wrongs make a right? Lionel had Clark dipped in a Kryptonite solution and violated his private memories in "Memoria" and he didn't resort to going commando on him.

When Clark accused him of corrupting Lana, Lex shot back with, don't forget Clark, you were the first to betray her. I hate to say it, but touche. So, Clark is not totally blameless, and he knows it.

Are you seriously equating what Lex has done to Lana with what Clark has done? Clark may have made mistakes, but everything he has done, he has done out of love for Lana. He has put her best interest above his own. Even pushing her away from him. Lex hasn’t been thinking of what was best for Lana.

BTW, just because someone criticizes Lana doesn’t make them a Lana hater.

I think the most profound bit of dialog in this episode is spoken by Lana to Clark:

"Don't do that. Don't take on all the blame so you can hold onto this perfect image you created of me."

I get tired of all the Lana bashing but I also get tired of all the Lana lovers who blame Clark or whoever to defend and/or justify Lana’s behavior and who always play the “Lana-hater” card in her defense. It is just as annoying on either extreme.

Originally Posted by Avidreader
I dont disagree with any of that, but I think Chloe's approach to Lana was a little too high and mighty. This is Lana she's talking to, not Lex.

Lately it’s been hard to tell the difference.

 

[mellyM]

Yes, but look at what she did. Did Lex ever directly put Lois in the hospital? Chloe tried to worn Lana about Lex last season and Lana's reply was she was nobody's prey. Maybe it was time for a more direct approach? Lana's actions put herself and Clark back on Lex's radar, and that's never a good thing.

BTW... on a different topic, one of the assumptions fans had for this ep would be that Lana would see Clark's restraint with having godlike powers as a good thing, but the episode went in a completely opposite direction. Lana berated Clark for not using his abilities and being afraid to get his hands bloody. Besides the impressions she left on the characters around her, what did Lana learn from the experience? Was there any "good" in giving her Clark's powers? I mean, besides the supersex LOL. That might make for a better discussion, I dunno.

That is a very interesting point, she sees his restraint as weakness, that alone is a good clue to where her head is lately.

 

[AtrophyG4]

My biggest gripe of the episode, and of course I'm the only one who mentioned it (because I'm such a stickler for these things ), was the fact that, apparently, there are no hospitals in Metropolis. Go figure. One of the largest cities in the world, and Lois has to travel 3 hours to Smallville to get treated for her injuries. Remember in the episode "Crusade" how Lois complained about small town medicine?

It was implied that before Season 4, Lois lived in Metropolis (remember she was taking classes at MetU until Chloe "died"). Now that she works for the Daily Planet, why doesn't she just move back to the city?
Is it that hard to redress the Talon Apartment as a Metropolis one? And would it kill the production designer to redress the SMC as a Metropolis hospital once in a while? Jeez!

Other than the usual Smallville -> Metropolis inconsistency that I always harp on about, everything else was great.

Did anyone else catch that during the ending Lex/Lana scene she is standing there about to jab the electrical cord into his gut while wearing a leather jacket, and then when Lex kissed her she was wearing a sleeveless turtleneck?

She enjoyed the kiss so much it knocked her jacket off!