Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - S2E6 "A Fractured House"

[InternetPeople]

Fitz shot a henchie in TRACKS, this is true, however it was with an ICER, not real bullets.

Are you saying that Simmons should have sacrificed herself so the HYDRA guy (who wanted to murder everyone) could live?

Have you thought this through completely?

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Fitz, who killed an unconscious and very much defenseless henchman in TRACKS

Mind elaborating on this? I only remember Fitz shooting a fully armed guy in a later episode. Or is that what I'm thinking of?

 

[InternetPeople]

In TRACKS, the henchie was about to throw an ICER grenade at Fitz and Skye in the storage car. Simmons interrupted and her and the henchie went down. Fitz put two in the henchie but they were ICER's, not bullets.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Which later episode was it where Fitz was hiding under a table or desk and shot a guy for real? He saved somebody's ass that time, can't remember who and I can't find the post I'm sure I made about it at the time.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Turn, Turn, Turn probably.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

yeah that's it, I just looked it up. I remember because I posted this

 

[Infinity9999x]

I was too lazy to rewrite my post to put it in a better context, admittedly. The point I was trying to make is that Captain always do it as a very last resort and never does it in cold blood. He never goes for the throat, so to speak.

People chastise Ward for cold blood murder, but I don't see anyone doing the same for Fitz, who killed an unconscious and very much defenseless henchman in TRACKS, and Simmons, who, for all intents and purposes, killed her amoral but very much innocent fellow scientist. So because people associate the other guys with "evil" they're not worth living? Who's to say they couldn't have a change of heart? Black Widow was once on the "evil" side and was responsible for cruelties far worse than Ward ever did, but she changed and is now one of the heroes. No one here can claim it'd be different with the henchman or the scientist, so what Fitz and Simmons did was no less wrong than what Ward did.

I wouldn't say Cap isn't somewhat cold blooded. In a dangerous situation, he'll do whatever he needs to in order to keep going. TWS displayed this pretty clearly.

And again, Natasha didn't infiltrate SHIELD, learn their secrets and work to undermine their entire organization. And then later refuse to understand why people don't trust her, or try to say she was actually helping someone out by not shooting them and dropping them into the ocean instead. Natasha has always been upfront about saying , "hey, this is just the job." Ward is displaying self delusional tendancies. He's unstable. And again, had Natasha been a key member in nearly undoing SHEILD, I doubt Fury would have kept her around.

 

[Lilbaz]

They're henchmen! Did no-one watch Austin Powers? We don't care.

 

[JtoDaP]

Killing evil mercenaries/HYDRA puppets don't make you evil. Not in my point of view, depands on wich side your on.

Well if your the henchmans wife...they are evil:

[YT]Ag_AFraxj-4[/YT]

Except for the family's Lilbaz

 

[Loki882]

I wouldn't say Cap isn't somewhat cold blooded. In a dangerous situation, he'll do whatever he needs to in order to keep going. TWS displayed this pretty clearly.

And again, Natasha didn't infiltrate SHIELD, learn their secrets and work to undermine their entire organization. And then later refuse to understand why people don't trust her, or try to say she was actually helping someone out by not shooting them and dropping them into the ocean instead. Natasha has always been upfront about saying , "hey, this is just the job." Ward is displaying self delusional tendancies. He's unstable. And again, had Natasha been a key member in nearly undoing SHEILD, I doubt Fury would have kept her around.

Natasha has had A LOT more time to change/reform and had people who were willing to give her that chance. Ward has had neither thus far. Years for her vs. what weeks for him. Also, he DIDN'T play a "key role" in undoing SHIELD, that was Pierce and his group in TWS. What Garrett was doing was basically a side project.

 

[Norrin Parker]

Yeah I can't see the team ever accepting Ward back into the team. His crimes were to personal to Coulson and the team. Someone like Natasha probably did stuff just as bad as Ward but not to Fury, Hawkeye or whoever.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Natasha has had A LOT more time to change/reform and had people who were willing to give her that chance. Ward has had neither thus far. Years for her vs. what weeks for him. Also, he DIDN'T play a "key role" in undoing SHIELD, that was Pierce and his group in TWS. What Garrett was doing was basically a side project.

He and Garrett took down the Icebox and unleashed lord knows how many meta-humans/put extremely dangerous tech in Hydra's hands. They certainly helped.

Point being, Ward was part of an organization that had slowly infiltrated Shield for decades. After being captured, he continued to display extremely warped reasoning for doing the things he did.

Natasha has always appeared as a clear cut "It's not personal, it's bushiness," field op/assassin. She was working for "another team" so to speak, but she wasn't part of an marginalization that literally nearly succeeded in almost completely destroying shield. So, once again, had she been, I really doubt Fury would have been willing to "recruit" her.

 

[Demileto]

Fitz shot a henchie in TRACKS, this is true, however it was with an ICER, not real bullets.

Fitz put two in the henchie but they were ICER's, not bullets.

Nope, that was no ICER, they would only appear two episodes later in "Yes Men". Those were real bullets, so yes, Fitz did kill the henchman in cold blood.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Before the ICEr was the Night Night gun, no?

 

[Demileto]

Before the ICEr was the Night Night gun, no?

Yup. That wasn't it, though.

There were two guns in that fight that I noticed: Fitz's Night Night and the henchman's very real one. The way I see it, Fitz left his gun for Simmons to protect herself and used the henchman's to kill him. It defeats the whole point of the focus they gave on Fitz on that scene and his words - "That's for Simmons" - if he just stunned the guy (who was already stunned btw).

Are you saying that Simmons should have sacrificed herself so the HYDRA guy (who wanted to murder everyone) could live?

Have you thought this through completely

She did what she had to do to survive, yes, but here's the catch: Kenneth died for the same reason Victoria Hand and Eric Koenig did: to protect their covers. She's no different than Ward in that regard, so why are we deeming him an unredeemable evil psychopath for their murders and not her?

 

[Silvermoon]

Yup. That wasn't it, though.

There were two guns in that fight: Fitz's Night Night and the henchman's very real one. Fitz left his gun for Simmons to protect herself and used the henchman's to kill him.

I just watched the scene in TRACKS, Fitz used a night-night gun on the henchman (he gave Simmons a 'spare' - that doesn't mean he didn't have another one). The muzzle 'flash' had a blue 'aura' to it, it made the same sound that the night-night (and ICER) guns make (which doesn't sound like a standard pistol), when it cuts to the henchman in the crate there's (again) a blue haze associated with the rounds fired by the Night-Night/ICER guns, and a bit later in the scene when they see the people outside, you can see the blue-lights on the side of the gun indicating it's a night-night. Then when he hands the gun to Skye later on outside the house it clearly looks like a night-night and not a regular pistol.

 

[Demileto]

And again, Natasha didn't infiltrate SHIELD, learn their secrets and work to undermine their entire organization. And then later refuse to understand why people don't trust her, or try to say she was actually helping someone out by not shooting them and dropping them into the ocean instead. Natasha has always been upfront about saying , "hey, this is just the job." Ward is displaying self delusional tendancies. He's unstable. And again, had Natasha been a key member in nearly undoing SHEILD, I doubt Fury would have kept her around.

You mustn't have watched or read much espionage works, do you?

Hawkeye disobeyed a direct order to kill her when he brought her into SHIELD's protection. The only reason he's still active is that Natasha has proved time and again that he was right in his judgement, but we also saw in The Avengers that Natasha is extremely skilled in playing people, so the risk he took was HUGE, it could've gone really bad for both him and SHIELD. You can bet Fury didn't take her in all that happily initially.

 

[Demileto]

I just watched the scene in TRACKS, Fitz used a night-night gun on the henchman (he gave Simmons a 'spare' - that doesn't mean he didn't have another one). The muzzle 'flash' had a blue 'aura' to it, it made the same sound that the night-night (and ICER) guns make (which doesn't sound like a standard pistol), when it cuts to the henchman in the crate there's (again) a blue haze associated with the rounds fired by the Night-Night/ICER guns, and a bit later in the scene when they see the people outside, you can see the blue-lights on the side of the gun indicating it's a night-night. Then when he hands the gun to Skye later on outside the house it clearly looks like a night-night and not a regular pistol.

So all the tough posing of Fitz ("That's for Simmons!") is for what, stunning an already stunned guy? That's a laugh if that's the case!

 

[Mike Murdock]

Fitz wanted to be a tough guy, but he had to grow into that role.

Having him kill someone in TRACKS kind of undermines the killing he did in Turn, Turn, Turn, which was a more meaningful point (and was clearly painful for him to do).

 

[Infinity9999x]

You mustn't have watched or read much espionage works, do you?

Hawkeye disobeyed a direct order to kill her when he brought her into SHIELD's protection. The only reason he's still active is that Natasha has proved time and again that he was right in his judgement, but we also saw in The Avengers that Natasha is extremely skilled in playing people, so the risk he took was HUGE, it could've gone really bad for both him and SHIELD. You can bet Fury didn't take her in all that happily initially.

I have. I'm a big fan of the Bourne books. I recommend checking them out. Different than the films but still great.

And while I agree with all you said, it doesn't address anything I pointed out in my post. Yes, taking Natasha in was dangerous, and yes, it was a risk. However, Natasha was not a member of an organization dedicated to destroying everything that Shield was. Natasha was not undercover for years inside Shield, learning Shield intel, and working to undermine the organization. Natasha was a skilled spy/assassin working for another government agency, and she was captured, and then offered a choice. Yes, she was an enemy, but one that was more "out in the open" so to speak.

Think of it this way. It's the difference between these two types of situations:

You're a business owner. You routinely interact with an employee of another company who is in direct competition with your own. Despite this other employee being the direct result of their company beating yours out in multiple sales areas, you can respect their skill, and despite the fact that the other employee is dedicated to their company, you eventually campaign to hire them for yourself.

As opposed to having an employee working for you for years, who is obviously skilled and very talented, only to learn that they have been selling information to your opponent company the entire time they've been hired.

Both situations are similar: You have a person who is hurting your company. However, the person in the first situation is generally looked upon as being more "honorable."

And that's essentially the difference between the two scenarios. Ward was the "dishonorable" spy, while Natasha wasn't. At least, as far as we know. The details of Natasha's induction to Shield is still murky. In addition to that Ward has shown some mildly delusional and clearly sociopathic views at best. His reasoning for why he did what he did is clearly warped, and he has an unhealthy obsession with a member of his former team.

 

[InternetPeople]

So all the tough posing of Fitz ("That's for Simmons!") is for what, stunning an already stunned guy? That's a laugh if that's the case!

Then it is a laugh because thems the facts. Before you reply again, do yourself a favor and rewatch the episode or just the scene in question. Listen for the discharge of the pistol and take a good look at it, that is clearly the night-night gun, ICER, whatever.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

So all the tough posing of Fitz ("That's for Simmons!") is for what, stunning an already stunned guy? That's a laugh if that's the case!

He's a wimpy lab nerd, they said in the very first episode neither of them were cleared or even trained for combat duty.

Fitz wanted to be a tough guy, but he had to grow into that role.

Having him kill someone in TRACKS kind of undermines the killing he did in Turn, Turn, Turn, which was a more meaningful point (and was clearly painful for him to do).

Ayup.

 

[gildedmuse]

I just want to point out one minor difference in the whole Natasha/Fitz/Simmons situation verses Ward.

Only one of these people worked for a group of MAGIC COMIC BOOK NAZIS.

I mean are we forgetting who is it Fitz and Simmons kill/hurt/possible/endanger? They're not just like your run of the mill henchmen, they are NAZIS who worship a guy with a skinless red skull for a face. Which also happened to be the group in charge of the faction Ward was working under, and yes you could make the point that he is more loyal to an insane cyborg injected with alien DNA than bloody faced Hitler he still knew who said guy was working for, considered his options and said you know what, hell yes I'll sign that nazi loyalty pledge. WITH THE NAZIS. You don't see how that might be ever so slightly different? Even a little bit?

In conclusions: nazis! They're evil!

 

[just one thing]

I just want to point out one minor difference in the whole Natasha/Fitz/Simmons situation verses Ward.

Only one of these people worked for a group of MAGIC COMIC BOOK NAZIS.

I mean are we forgetting who is it Fitz and Simmons kill/hurt/possible/endanger? They're not just like your run of the mill henchmen, they are NAZIS who worship a guy with a skinless red skull for a face. Which also happened to be the group in charge of the faction Ward was working under, and yes you could make the point that he is more loyal to an insane cyborg injected with alien DNA than bloody faced Hitler he still knew who said guy was working for, considered his options and said you know what, hell yes I'll sign that nazi loyalty pledge. WITH THE NAZIS. You don't see how that might be ever so slightly different? Even a little bit?

In conclusions: nazis! They're evil!

did hydra infiltrate the nazi's, maybe being a bit unfair to the nazi's there or hydra even.

 

[gildedmuse]

did hydra infiltrate the nazi's, maybe being a bit unfair to the nazi's there or hydra even.

I think to the GA it's made pretty clear that HYDRA is a Nazi faction. At least that's the opinion of most of the folks I know who watch the films, that HYDRA are basically the comic book version of Nazis.