BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

[Unbreakable Lex]

Really? I've only ever heard criticism of that reasoning.

I didn't have a problem with it as dialogue, I had a problem with it as dialogue Bruce Wayne would say. Hell, even Affleck compared the "reasoning" to Dick Chenney's reasoning behind going to Iraq. That's far from a ringing endorsement, and shows how wrong Bruce was in this thinking.

Like I said, I didn't mind it as dialogue, but it was DEFINITELY out of character for the Batman we know.
That said, I think it worked in the film, especially with where it is placed, immediately AFTER he has the Knightmare, and mystery person tell him he was always right about "him."

Again, Bruce is wrong, and that's the point of his character arc in the film, that he has strayed so far from who he is, that no longer IS the Batman we know.
Same thing they tried to do with him killing. Still don't think that part was necessary to tell the story they did, mind you, and you could cut all of the "real world" bat-killing from the film, and it wouldn't have changed a thing.

No, but when you put Batman in the real world with real bad guys that shoot real guns, including point blank to the back of the head, you can understand that the "no kill" rule in reality is kind of silly. He never murders in cold blood in this film. Every action he takes that results in a death was done in self defense. I have no problem with Batman taking out someone that is firing a gatling gun at him.

 

[Poni_Boy]

You're kind of proving the point.

Batman v Superman isn't a sequel to all the previous Batman films.

It's like with the new James Bond films. In Skyfall they took to time to show you and explain who Moneypenny was despite the fact that she had appeared in numerous James Bonds films before. They didn't assume that anybody would just know who she is....

I should note this is also why I have no problem with their showing the Wayne's Murder again in Batman V Superman.

Yerp. Spot on.

 

[Cats]

One of my friends did. She thought Bruce and Alfred were lovers.

Erm... your friend must be really young, or she must've been living under a rock this whole time. Almost anyone and everyone I know, and we're talking non-comic book fans, know who Alfred is. And I'm living on the other side of the world from the USA where many people do not even speak english.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Erm... your friend must be really young, or she must've been living under a rock this whole time. Almost anyone and everyone I know, and we're talking non-comic book fans, know who Alfred is. And I'm living on the other side of the world from the USA where many people do not even speak english.

No she's in her thirties she just doesn't watch these types of movies

 

[Supernova]

You can't say anything. They rebooted the Batman mythology with this movie so it's the filmmaker's job to explain crucial aspects of said mythology. You want people to watch Nolan or Burton's Batman movies to understand who Alfred is? That's ridiculous. Now YOU are making excuses for poor storytelling. C'mon pal

Well Ill stop you there pal, alfred has in all movies been batmans butler and helper in his crusade. Michael caine gave a speech about his army days to bruce in the dark knight rises but thats the only time we get background on alfred. This movie coearly showed alfred next young bruce at his parents funeral.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

You're kind of proving the point.

Batman v Superman isn't a sequel to all the previous Batman films.

It's like with the new James Bond films. In Skyfall they took to time to show you and explain who Moneypenny was despite the fact that she had appeared in numerous James Bonds films before. They didn't assume that anybody would just know who she is....

I should note this is also why I have no problem with their showing the Wayne's Murder again in Batman V Superman.

People complain about too many origin stories, that they aren't needed. So you get a comic book hero that's as universally known as Batman and you don't specifically call Alfred his Butler and that's a problem. This is where we are people.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Well Ill stop you there pal, alfred has in all movies been batmans butler and helper in his crusade. Michael caine gave a speech about his army days to bruce in the dark knight rises but thats the only time we get background on alfred. This movie coearly showed alfred next young bruce at his parents funeral.

So you have to watch Nolan's movies for Alfred's backstory in this movie then. Even though this Alfred has a totally different backstory. Got it

 

[Cats]

No she's in her thirties she just doesn't watch these types of movies

Does she need to though? Alfred's in print media, game media, tv media and all over the internet. I can't imagine how someone would not know who Alfred is by now. She must be seriously behind on technology.

So you have to watch Nolan's movies for Alfred's backstory in this movie then. Even though this Alfred has a totally different backstory. Got it

He doesn't have a totally different backstory. Alfred's always had a bit of military training, it's all a matter of whether the film explores it or not. Anyway it isn't that relevant to this film, seeing as he's mostly just the voice of reason, as he is in EVERY incarnation of Alfred - including the cartoons.

 

[Lily Adler]

Hey that's what I got out of it, to be honest. Maybe this Bruce Wayne is gay? That would, actually be kinda cool.

He's Bruce Wayne's older house boy. We've solved the mystery.

 

[javonstokess]

So the worlds greatest detective, that was able to find out a way to kill said Alien, never actually bothered to look into the Alien's background?

Lex Luthor AND Lois Lane managed to find out where Clark grew up and where his mother lived but Batman couldn't?

Oh dear lord, this post makes so much sense LOL

 

[Poni_Boy]

Does she need to though? Alfred's in print media, game media, tv media and all over the internet. I can't imagine how someone would not know who Alfred is by now. She must be seriously behind on technology.

What? Where is Alfred in all this stuff? Unless you look for info on movies or cartoons or comics you have no idea who the guy is. You're making it sound like he's James Bond, ingrained in the pop culture lexicon of every day familiarity. My friend works in the fashion biz. She saw the movie because people took her to see it. If she didn't understand elements of the characters because the movie failed to deliver them that's not her fault, and she can make all the assumptions she wants about them without really being wrong.

 

[SuperAl]

seriously, someone complaining that they thought alfred was bruce's lover. how is this not trolling?

 

[Supernova]

So you have to watch Nolan's movies for Alfred's backstory in this movie then. Even though this Alfred has a totally different backstory. Got it

Uh no never said tjat just saying we never really no much anout
Alfred period besides the basics.

Whats next you wanna know how lois got the job at the daily
Planet? See how petty this is?

 

[Wylie Times]

Why was he looking for Kryptonite? He didn't care who Superman's alter ego is and likely didn't even assume he had one. What does that matter? If he's fighting Clark or Superman, it's the same person. If he can get to Superman and defeat him, what does knowing that he's Clark Kent have to do with anything?

You want Batman to kidnap Lois and Martha to get to Superman? That's breaking the character's MO. That's what villains do.

Didn't Batman basically say he was going to War with Superman?

Since when is it not good idea to have as much information as possible about an opponent? As a matter of fact isn't "prep time" a big thing with Batman?

If you're trying to assess whether or not someone or something is a threat you do as much research and gather as much inlet as possible.

Now that I think about it, it doesn't make sense that he'd know about Kryptonite and what it could do but not know who Superman's mother was. Lex's people were the ones who discovered that Kryptonite could harm Kryptonians. Bruce found that and the locations of the Kyrptonite by hacking Lex's servers. So Bruce had access to Lex's info on Superman but never came across his secret identity or background information?

You're pretty much saying that Batman is either stupid or lazy.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

You know things are bad when the majority of the people "just didn't get" a movie; and it's not even a Lars Von Trier movie or some crap, it's a CBM.

Well, the proof is in the pudding. When Alfred is assumed to be Bruce Wayne's gay lover, it's proof that some people can't be helped.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Uh no never said tjat just saying we never really no much anout
Alfred period besides the basics.

Whats next you wanna know how lois got the job at the daily
Planet? See how petty this is?

It's not petty at all. If Lois was just walking around the Planet talking to everyone but was never identified as being a reporter, is it wrong to assume she might own the place? Or be the mail girl? It's just bad storytelling

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Didn't Batman basically say he was going to War with Superman?

Since when is it not good idea to have as much information as possible about an opponent? As a matter of fact isn't "prep time" a big thing with Batman?

If you're trying to assess whether or not someone or something is a threat you do as much research and gather as much inlet as possible.

Now that I think about it, it doesn't make sense that he'd know about Kryptonite and what it could do but not know who Superman's mother was. Lex's people were the ones who discovered that Kryptonite could harm Kryptonians. Bruce found that and the locations of the Kyrptonite by hacking Lex's servers. So Bruce had access to Lex's info on Superman but never came across his secret identity or background information?

You're pretty much saying that Batman is either stupid or lazy.

Oh brother. Why does it not make sense that finding alien artifacts that harm aliens can't be done without figuring out or even caring who the alien's Earth mother is? C'mon.

 

[javonstokess]

1. It seems like people are confused about the difference between Easter Eggs and Plot points.

2. Bringing up Iron Man 2 and AOU, both films that people have had a relatively negative reaction to, doesn't prove your point. It actually does the opposite.

3. When you have the World's Greatest Detective ignoring the "obvious" threat of Lex Luthor for the more..."subtle"(?) threat of Superman, you're just reaching to find a reason for them to fight.

4. Frankly, if you think the 1% or the "do you bleed" line is good writing when it's coming out of Batman's mouth, then I really don't know what to tell you. I just don't think you "get" the character of Batman or you WANT Batman to speak that way.

5. Snyder has admitted to not liking the character of Superman which is why he's made some of the changes he did. Frankly, he should have just done a TDKR movie instead.

 

[FunkMiller]

Does she need to though? Alfred's in print media, game media, tv media and all over the internet. I can't imagine how someone would not know who Alfred is by now. She must be seriously behind on technology.



He doesn't have a totally different backstory. Alfred's always had a bit of military training, it's all a matter of whether the film explores it or not. Anyway it isn't that relevant to this film, seeing as he's mostly just the voice of reason, as he is in EVERY incarnation of Alfred - including the cartoons.

Surely the point here is that if you're going to go off book with your interpretation of a character the way Snyder has with Batman, then you also have to re-lay the groundwork of his backstory, rather than relying on the audience's knowledge of other versions of the character? Otherwise it's the wrong backstory for the Batman you're watching.

 

[Poni_Boy]

He's Bruce Wayne's older house boy. We've solved the mystery.

 

[Supernova]

seriously, someone complaining that they thought alfred was bruce's lover. how is this not trolling?

With the word boy in his username its too be expected, Im just watching his post and laughing at how absurd they are.

 

[Flint Marko]

Has Snyder really mentioned not being a fan of the character? I mean I can tell he doesn't like Superman but I didn't know he's outright admitted it.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Surely the point here is that if you're going to go off book with your interpretation of a character the way Snyder has with Batman, then you also have to re-lay the groundwork of his backstory, rather than relying on the audience's knowledge of other versions of the character? Otherwise it's the wrong backstory for the Batman you're watching.

Yerp. You didn't have to read LOTR to know who all the important characters were in Fellowship. Same with Batman Begins. Same with Iron Man. Same with every other well made movie adapted from another source.

 

[Rapunzel]

One of my friends did. She thought Bruce and Alfred were lovers. And, no one could negate that based on what was shown/told in the movie. But that's only a minor example to the overarching issue with this "storytelling." BvS expects you to either A. Enjoy it for what it is and not try to make sense of it (ala Transformers), or B. Have preexisting knowledge of these characters and their stories to make it enjoyable.

Bruce is shown in bed with a woman. And Alfred clearly jokes about Bruce taking a lady home from Lex's party. They are obviously not lovers. It is clearly negated in the film, and your friend needs to pay attention. As do you.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Bruce is shown in bed with a woman. And Alfred clearly jokes about Bruce taking a lady home from Lex's party. They are obviously not lovers. It is clearly negated in the film, and your friend needs to pay attention. As do you.

It's not obvious if a lot of people missed it. It's obvious Superman has an S on his chest. It's obvious Bruce Wayne is rich. "Obvious" is used to validate arguments about topics that are anything but.