BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 295

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You're in such a rush to answer you're not reading what I write. Read my last post about logical analysis of the BvS vs the Begins origin.

Cool but we weren't discussing that previously, I'm specifically discussing your meth addict scenario.

We can move onto BvS later, right now I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact you were in law enforcement but think the officer would be wrong to act in that scenario.
 
Yep. There's s huge difference between being a passive resister and passive aggressor in terms of escalation in the eyes of the law. There's not way around it, in BvS Thomas was the catalyst that cause his and Martha's deaths. That's how it was written. Probably just because it "looked cooler" to have Jeffery Dean Morgan go all Comedian on the mugger.

I do agree with that though. Thomas got shot cuz he tried to swing on a man with a gun.
 
How about moving on to another topic....this one at the moment is getting people overheated.
 
Cool but we weren't discussing that previously, I'm specifically discussing your meth addict scenario.

We can move onto BvS later, right now I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact you were in law enforcement but think the officer would be wrong to act in that scenario.

Again, you didn't read what I wrote. If a man is standing there with a knife and a cop shoots him without the IMMINENT thread of death or bodily harm the COP is guilty of escalating the situation. You'd have to prove the man's mens rea. Which you cannot if the man is dead. The Tueller Drill which you cited earlier has nothing to do with the Use of Force continuum. That is a reactionary drill, not a legal defense.

Why is that hard to understand?
 
I do agree with that though. Thomas got shot cuz he tried to swing on a man with a gun.

Hah that's allll we're trying to say. Whether that affects Bruce differently from origin scenarios like Begins is up to the viewer.
 
Yeah, I really don't think this whole DCEU thing is going to keep going past the two films locked in post, Suicide Squad (which I do think could seriously surprise this summer) and Wonder Woman.
 
I was an Army and Air Force cop all around the US (seven states) with concurrent jurisdiction in 9 municipalities and cities. I was also a CBP agent with Federal jurisdiction nationwide.

Look up Graham v. Connor. Here are similar cases where the Use of Force continuum was improperly applied and caused cases to either be dismissed or officers to share blame:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ion_shows_that_we_give_police_too_wide_a.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/james-forcillo-sammy-yatim-shooting-trial-1.3339676

And here's some info on deescalation and why it is important for both police and civilians to know: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-police-training-las-vegas-chicago-met-20160324-story.html

Bottom line in terms of BvS: Thomas acted as an active aggressor, not a passive resister, which changes the dynamic of how Bruce should view criminals.

But you're forgetting something, you weren't there, you didn't see your parents corpse on the ground and your mother mutilated. Just the visceral reaction to the sights, sounds and smells of your parents being brutally murdered, staying at the scene, the surreal feeling, the anguish, depression and rage.

He felt those things because he saw it in and all the graphic details, and everything else is an afterthought. Maybe at one point later on his life he contemplated his fathers actions, but by that point he's probably too far gone for it to be any factor on how he views criminals. Remember he was only a little boy when it happened, too young and too filled with emotions to contemplate such things.
 
Yeah, I really don't think this whole DCEU thing is going to keep going past the two films locked in post, Suicide Squad (which I do think could seriously surprise this summer) and Wonder Woman.

Same. I just don't see any way to justify to their board or shareholders the investment in JL at this point with BvS being in a box office free-fall.
 
But you're forgetting something, you weren't there, you didn't see your parents corpse on the ground and your mother mutilated. Just the visceral reaction to the sights, sounds and smells of your parents being brutally murdered, staying at the scene, the surreal feeling, the anguish, depression and rage.

He felt those things because he saw it in and all the graphic details, and everything else is an afterthought. Maybe at one point later on his life he contemplated his fathers actions, but by that point he's probably too far gone for it to be any factor on how he views criminals. Remember he was only a little boy when it happened, too young and too filled with emotions to contemplate such things.

That's your reasoning and it's fine, but therein lies the problem with the approach to that scene: The Batman origin hasn't caused division before because it's a pretty simple, straightforward thing. The very existence of this division should tell you something about Snyder's decision.

And that extends to the MoS and BvS perception by the GA.
 
Again, you didn't read what I wrote. If a man is standing there with a knife and a cop shoots him without the IMMINENT thread of death or bodily harm the COP is guilty of escalating the situation. You'd have to prove the man's mens rea. Which you cannot if the man is dead. The Tueller Drill which you cited earlier has nothing to do with the Use of Force continuum. That is a reactionary drill, not a legal defense.

Why is that hard to understand?

But you stated the man has a knife and is actively threatening the officer with said knife, and hes high on drugs as well. The cop is under reasonable threat in that scenario and is justified in using lethal force.

Its not like some guy at a barbecue holding a knife and a cop shoots him just because he has a knife in his hand.
 
Yeah, I really don't think this whole DCEU thing is going to keep going past the two films locked in post, Suicide Squad (which I do think could seriously surprise this summer) and Wonder Woman.

If I'm on any camp, it's camp Lucasfilms, so I don't care about the Marvel v. DC thing, and I can honestly say that I'm very excited for SuiSquad.
 
Wrong. The cop IS at fault. Just like in court Thomas' escalation would be used in the mugger's defense.

A cop shooting a man with a knife is not the cop being wrong, not if that man clearly makes an attempt to do harm to that cop. That's what a whole bunch of people (including my fellow black people) would have you believe. A cop shooting a man that makes such an attempt is not escalation. Now, if the man just stands there with the knife, then it's escalation if the cop immediately shoots the man. That's why I said "if the man makes an attempt on the cop's life". Because it's only in that situation where the cop is justified in shooting the armed man. Not only that, but the mugger would not get away with what he did. The mugger pulled a gun on an unarmed man, his wife, and his son. There is no way the mugger would have any defense whatsoever. Because his life was not threatened and he was not in danger. In the case of a guy who is high on meth and holding a knife, if such a guy makes an attempt to kill or otherwise harm the cop, then that guy is putting the cop's life in danger, and the officer is well within his rights and authority to fire on that man. And again, just to stress, this is only IF the man makes an actual, physical attempt to do harm to the cop.

This is not a mere situation of escalation of force. In such a situation, the man wouldn't be making an active attempt to harm the cop. As in that Forcillo case. That situation, I understand what you're saying. But what does the cop do if that person attacks? That's what I was bringing up. If, and only if, that person actually makes an active attempt to use that knife to do harm, then the cop would be justified in using force. A cop would do the same thing if that person was trying to use that knife to harm someone else. And if a cop isn't allowed to do that, then there's a problem, imo.

Either way, I do agree that Thomas Wayne acted rashly and aggressively, but he was not the aggressor. That was self-defense. Failed self-defense, foolish self-defense, but it was self-defense. He was not the aggressor in the situation. The man holding the gun (I assume Joe Chill) was the aggressor. And you can't equate that situation to that of cops who also carry sidearms. That should in no way affect Batman's view of criminals. Joe Chill was not a victim. If anything, he was inspired by his father's attempt to act to save his wife and son. If anything, that is what motivates him to also act. His father's example. Not only that, but you can't just assume that Joe Chill would've spared them had Thomas not tried to attack.
 
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That's your reasoning and it's fine, but therein lies the problem with the approach to that scene: The Batman origin hasn't caused division before because it's a pretty simple, straightforward thing. The very existence of this division should tell you something about Snyder's decision.

And that extends to the MoS and BvS perception by the GA.

The only time I've seen it discussed is a few pages on this thread. So the existence of this division is your perception, there is no widespread division over this particular scene. And if there is I would like some sources or examples where it's being widely discussed.
 
You know what the most hilarious part is, now that you've mentioned those terms? Nolan's Thomas WAS a passive resister, because when Chill went for Martha's necklace, it was 100% logical (or realistic when under stress as some people say here) to not be sure whether he was going for the necklace or Martha. And EVEN THEN, he tried to get in the way, not charge.

Exactly!
 
Again, what was Thomas defending? Not his life or his family's, cos no attempt was made on them.
 
Yep. There's s huge difference between being a passive resister and passive aggressor in terms of escalation in the eyes of the law. There's not way around it, in BvS Thomas was the catalyst that cause his and Martha's deaths. That's how it was written. Probably just because it "looked cooler" to have Jeffery Dean Morgan go all Comedian on the mugger.

LMAO

Exactly!
 
The only time I've seen it discussed is a few pages on this thread. So the existence of this division is your perception, there is no widespread division over this particular scene. And if there is I would like some sources or examples where it's being widely discussed.

Do you mean articles on the Internet? That I can't do and I don't believe it's any more proof than the various forums that talk about it, like SHH.
 
A cop shooting a man with a knife is not the cop being wrong, not if that man clearly makes an attempt to do harm to that cop.

And that's not what I said. People are assuming the scenario is a guy LUNGING at a cop with a knife. I didn't say that. It's escalation if you can't prove the mens rea of the man with the knife, that he was absolutely, unequivocally about to use to it do harm. That's why brandishing a deadly weapon =/= attempted murder. Murder requires proof of intent.
 
No I didn't. Read what I wrote

Yes you did:

"So if a guy high on meth threatens a cop with a knife and the cop shoots him it's not the cop's fault at all for escalating the situation? "

No need for mental gymnastics, that's what you wrote, Is there some type of special Egyptian hieroglyphics in there that I have to decode to get the true meaning?

Still waiting on those prior case examples... I already disproved the ones you linked.
 
Do you mean articles on the Internet? That I can't do and I don't believe it's any more proof than the various forums that talk about it, like SHH.

Then there is no widespread division that this scene has caused. And I've not seen it discussed on other forums or threads until now.
 
Best way to describe BvS.

Snyder and WB be like...

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Fans and critics be like...

tumblr_na9l0lkmVP1th1eqeo2_1280.gif


Nothing wrong with a superhero film being serious but it's a Superman film people. Have some fun with it.
 
Yeah, I really don't think this whole DCEU thing is going to keep going past the two films locked in post, Suicide Squad (which I do think could seriously surprise this summer) and Wonder Woman.

I strongly disliked both MoS and BvS but even I don't see them throwing in the towel. They're going to push forward with JL and the rest of their slate until they find what works. Like you said, I think that'll be Suicide Squad which will give them confidence going forward.
 
Again, what was Thomas defending? Not his life or his family's, cos no attempt was made on them.

Here's the problem, people defend what they like just because they like it. And you really don't have to. If you like something, you like it. But trying to negate other people's opinions just because you liked it is where things go off the rocker. Did you like how Snyder shot that scene? Yes? Awesome. Glad it worked for you. But denying the way the scene was written differently, and that difference DOESN'T change the characters and their actions, makes no sense. It clearly does, even if Goyer/Snyder/Terrio didn't mean to do it on purpose (like when Superman rams the guy through the brick wall).
 
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