BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - Part 302

[StormC]

Rewatching TDKT earlier to get this movie's taste out of my mouth, it made me sorta sad that its story was so open and closed; I almost wish they would've produced a distant fourth sequel down the line just to get to experience that world one more time, maybe have both Bruce and Robin in key roles, but TDKR ended on a mostly satisfactory note for me and I certainly wouldn't want it without Nolan's involvement.

 

[Micromind]

Justice League movie needs some likable characters to draw-in the younger crowds, which is why I think it's a big mistake on part of WB to schedule The Flash movie after JL-1.

 

[AndrewOz]

For the folks who think they irreparably screwed up a lot with BvS, like publicly killing Clark Kent, or the characterizations or killings, things like that:


What if they were to do similar to the X-Men films, using the whole Flash time travel concept to retcon some of the unpopular things from BvS, do you think that would be an acceptable way to save the franchise for you? I mean, everybody seems to have forgiven and forgotten X Men 3.

Sorry if this has been discussed

The time travel paradox thing has been pretty telegraphed. I've seen it supposed that Zack just wanted to have some fun putting the heroes through the meat grinder first, before using a Crisis or Flashpoint event to ret-con it and give us the heroes we "know and love" afterwards.

I just can't imagine why you'd start off WITHOUT the heroes "know and love" if the intent to portray them that way is there at all.
It makes no sense to risk alienating the potential audience first.
I liked Flashpoint, we got to see homicidal versions of almost everyone.
The reason it worked though was it was in stark contrast to the established and well-loved version and also self contained and short lived.
Movies are too short, too expensive and too spread out to get away with the creative choices comics can experiment with.

So, I'm all for it if it gives us better than we've gotten so far.

I can also think of several ways to soft reboot without it.

• Jimmy Olsen either isn't dead or isn't THE Jimmy Olsen.
• Mercy is a robot and Lex has plent of them.
• Lex is cured after the defeat of Darkseid and becomes "real" Lex.
• Batman's problem isn't PTSD (even if i accept that Batman has PTSD, I cannot accept that "Martha" cured it. It is not a trivial condition curable by an epiphany), but TBI (traumatic brain injury), which can cause memory problems, abrupt shifts in personality and mental capacity - which does explain BvS - and is cured by the Amazonian Purple Ray courtesy of Wonder Woman.
• Clark Kent is only presumed dead as in the DoS comic. This is a bit harder, because the body disappeared in the comic, but it could be explained that only Bruce, Martha, Lo and Diana saw the body at the open casket viewing, the rest of the funeral entourage believe an empty coffin is being buried as he's presumed dead trapped beneath the buildings destroyed in the Doomsday conflict
• Superman's near death experience is a perfect excuse for him to come back without his seeming invulnerability to Joy

So it is possible to do it semi-believably without time travel.

 

[AndrewOz]

Rewatching TDKT earlier to get this movie's taste out of my mouth, it made me sorta sad that its story was so open and closed; I almost wish they would've produced a distant fourth sequel down the line just to get to experience that world one more time, maybe have both Bruce and Robin in key roles, but TDKR ended on a mostly satisfactory note for me and I certainly wouldn't want it without Nolan's involvement.

Nolan left the (satisfying and complete) resolution open ended enough that he or anyone else could have picked it back up for a 4th without a reboot.

Compare that to what Zack is doing.

 

[AndrewOz]

Nolan had nothing to do with Batman vs Superman. Also on top of that Zack Synder didn't write Batman vs Superman he just directed. I'm sure he was allowed imput on he story but all the writing goes to David S. Goyer and Chris Terrio.

People have this knack for blaming directors for a bad story line. When in many cases the director has very little to do with the writing process. The director can make minor alterations once filming begins but even then it's not him that does it. It's once again the writers.

I contribute much of the flaws to Batman vs Superman as well as Man of Steel to David S Goyer. Who has no business writing for Superman. He great at writing Batman but his stuff is to dark for Superman. What Man of Steel need was some one who is writen Superman comics. Grant Morrison would been a great pick to write Man of Steel along with another writer to help him.

As for Batman vs Superman they should had a team of say Grant Morrison, David S Goyer and another writer to help them. Then you have two writers who understand both respective characters and to write them well. The third writer to help balance it out and flush out there ideas.

The writers need to have a real basic understanding of the character and be able to reflect the tone and mood of those characters worlds. Well that's my opinion any way.

I don't think Goyer has any business writing any superhero, but I'm too tired to reprise my anti-Goyer rant.
But in this case, Snyder has made it clear he was in the driver's seat.
Check some of his interviews.
He had no idea what he was doing, but he was doing it on purpose. With passionate intensity.

 

[Lantern Venom]

How about after this year no more heroes fighting each other. Lets get back to heroes vs villians.

You'll definitely see more hero vs hero battles after 2016. Both the Avengers and Justice League have had regular internal conflicts over the years. However, the MCU and DCEU seem to be lining up their respective Big Bads, so we probably won't see something like a storyline like JLoom or World War Hulk any time soon.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

He had no idea what he was doing, but he was doing it on purpose. With passionate intensity.

LOL this. Snyder is the showrunner for the whole DCEU and has already made it clear he has a lot of control on films he's not even directing... which is likely why some of the other directors are deserting.

 

[Consona]

Has anyone seen this?

https://facebook.com/ExploreTalent/...61629227./10154214438403945/?type=3&source=42

This is absolutely lovely. More Superman in one picture than two Zack Snyder movies.

What the hell is so wrong in wanting a Superman that makes you feel like this?

What the hell is wrong, in an uncertain world, with wanting to see a Superman who stands for something noble and good?

What the hell is wrong with wanting to leave the cinema with a happy feeling, because you've just watched the most important superhero in history do the kinds of things we only wish we could do in real life?

But no, we have to have a 'different take' on Superman, don't we? We have to have a Superman with the humanity sucked out of him, in favour of some cool visuals and a conflict with Batman that makes no sense. A deconstructed Superman. A Superman to be feared and looked at from a distance. A Superman who never stays long enough, or looks approachable enough, for a child to want to hug him.

The type of Superman hinted at in that picture clears a billion dollars at the box office in three weeks. This Superman sets up the justice league. This Superman sells merchandise. This Superman reviews well critically. You may well disagree with that, but I'm convinced it's true. And if this was the Superman we'd had in the past two movies, these forums would be full of far more positive posts.

Somebody should blow this picture up to twenty feet across, plaster it on a billboard across from Zack Snyder's house, and paint the word LEARN above it.

I totally agree and disagree.
SPOILERS!
Who says we cannot/will not have this kind of Superman in upcoming DCEU films? People are so mad at Snyder/WB just because his character was build from different point, i.e. from point of confusion, insecurity, finding his place in the world, instead of happy and smiling guy from the beginning. I thing it's a legit move. I think it's an interesting move. I think his character in BvS is great. He's confused because he's not dumb and he sees that the world is not black and white, that his existence is problematic, yet he tries to help, because it's in his power and in the end he takes this world as his own and he makes the ultimate sacrifices, It's great storytelling in you ask me! And I think MoS and BvS are great basis for resurrection of Superman as a icon you want. He will be this sunshine and rainbows Superman, because this world is his own, he made up his mind already, he will be the beacon and symbol of hope. I'm glad he was not that from the beginning, that really seems more realistic to me (I liked he read Plato in MoS, he's a clever guy who understands world is so complex and complicated), I'm glad it took two films to get there.

So think about it and try to see the other side of the coin, that the character alters as the story progresses, which is great, IMO and stop being mad at WB for not bringing Superman you want right away.


I think Knightmare stuff is what Batman will try to prevent, but if they will go with evil Superman in JL, the hate for Snyder/WB will be endless.

If the story is great I don't mind the evil Superman, but at this moment, it seems to me the resurrection of Superman is staged to bring the sunshine and rainbows Superman in. Put him back into the moody state would be a step backwards, we've seen him there, we need him restored to his "true symbol of hope" form.

 

[Micromind]

So far only two directors who were attached have left, Michelle McLaren and Seth Grahame Smith. In case of SGS, I would like to believe that WB wanted someone more experienced as SGS has not directed any movie (or any episode of TV seines, except two episodes of MTV) before. so it's more a case of Stdio wanting him out and then giving the usual "Creative Differences" as a reason.


Michelle McLaren's take on WW was not consistent with the DCEU planned, so it was a genuine case of "Creative Differences".

I don't think they left just because the Show-runner is Snyder.

 

[FunkMiller]

I totally agree and disagree.
SPOILERS!
Who says we cannot/will not have this kind of Superman in upcoming DCEU films? People are so mad at Snyder/WB just because his character was build from different point, i.e. from point of confusion, insecurity, finding his place in the world, instead of happy and smiling guy from the beginning. .

No, people are mad because across two whole movies, four and a half hours of screen time in total, and an in-story period of over 18 months, Superman undergoes ZERO progression as a character.

Starting at a point of insecurity and confusion is fine, but you have to let your character grow. That's an arc. The Superman at the end of the BvS is the same Superman at the beginning of MoS.

We were all hoping that character progression would happen in BvS. It didn't. That's one of the many reasons it is a poor movie.

How often are we going to have to hear "Oh, but in the next movie..." from people defending Snyder's complete tone-deafness when it comes to Superman?

 

[MadVillainy]

It's funny to me, and this goes back to MoS some of the defenses I see to something.
1. It's kinda stupid how they killed Jimmy Olsen. Reply: Jimmy's never been important to Superman so it doesnt matter
2. Kinda stupid how they're handling the Clark Kent persona. Reply: Clark Kent persona has always been stupid
3. Kinda stupid how they handled Superman's no kill rule. Reply: The rule is outdated

• Jimmy Olsen either isn't dead or isn't THE Jimmy Olsen.
• Mercy is a robot and Lex has plent of them.
• Lex is cured after the defeat of Darkseid and becomes "real" Lex.
• Batman's problem isn't PTSD (even if i accept that Batman has PTSD, I cannot accept that "Martha" cured it. It is not a trivial condition curable by an epiphany), but TBI (traumatic brain injury), which can cause memory problems, abrupt shifts in personality and mental capacity - which does explain BvS - and is cured by the Amazonian Purple Ray courtesy of Wonder Woman.
• Clark Kent is only presumed dead as in the DoS comic. This is a bit harder, because the body disappeared in the comic, but it could be explained that only Bruce, Martha, Lo and Diana saw the body at the open casket viewing, the rest of the funeral entourage believe an empty coffin is being buried as he's presumed dead trapped beneath the buildings destroyed in the Doomsday conflict
• Superman's near death experience is a perfect excuse for him to come back without his seeming invulnerability to Joy

So it is possible to do it semi-believably without time travel.

It's definetly possible but the question is: will they do it?

 

[GreenKToo]

No, people are mad because across two whole movies, four and a half hours of screen time in total, and an in-story period of over 18 months, Superman undergoes ZERO progression as a character.

Starting at a point of insecurity and confusion is fine, but you have to let your character grow. That's an arc. The Superman at the end of the BvS is the same Superman at the beginning of MoS.

We were all hoping that character progression would happen in BvS. It didn't. That's one of the many reasons it is a poor movie.

How often are we going to have to hear "Oh, but in the next movie..." from people defending Snyder's complete tone-deafness when it comes to Superman?

Exactly. It's like hearing, ''just wait till next year'' about your favorite sports team when they've had two bad seasons in a row. Screw that, I want it this year.

 

[Consona]

Superman undergoes ZERO progression as a character.

The Superman at the end of the BvS is the same Superman at the beginning of MoS.

See how exaggerated and untrue things you are able to write just to hold your position? It makes me feel debating BvS here is such a waste of time. Go on, bring more of your vitriol towards the film and those who produced it, I don't care anymore.

[BLACKOUT]If self-sacrificed Superman who makes this huge decision that this world is his world is the same Superman we had at the beginning of MoS then I don't know what to write here anymore.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[FunkMiller]

See how exaggerated and untrue things you are able to write just to hold your position? It makes me feel debating BvS here is such a waste of time. Go on, bring more of your vitriol towards the film and those who produced it, I don't care anymore.

[BLACKOUT]If self-sacrificed Superman who makes this huge decision that this world is his world is the same Superman we had at the beginning of MoS then I don't know what to write here anymore.[/BLACKOUT]

A character arc is when you have a believable and logical progression from one state of mind to another, through events and experiences that change the character in an organic manner, over time.

Simply saying 'this is my world' to the only person other than your mother that you seem to care about, and then stabbing a cave troll with a glowing green spear is not a character arc.

 

[AndrewOz]

No, people are mad because across two whole movies, four and a half hours of screen time in total, and an in-story period of over 18 months, Superman undergoes ZERO progression as a character.

Starting at a point of insecurity and confusion is fine, but you have to let your character grow. That's an arc. The Superman at the end of the BvS is the same Superman at the beginning of MoS.

We were all hoping that character progression would happen in BvS. It didn't. That's one of the many reasons it is a poor movie.

How often are we going to have to hear "Oh, but in the next movie..." from people defending Snyder's complete tone-deafness when it comes to Superman?

I have to disagree - this Superman was not the same at the end. He's dead.

Well, sort of, but I actually think he's gone backward. He at least tried to tell the authorities in MoS who he was, where he came from, how he was raised and what he stood for.
It's all been pretty much downhill from there.
He ended his life in a more befuddled, isolated and incompetent way than ever. At least he closed the loop by making sure he died as just as pointlesslyy as Ghost Dad.
One more book-ended "arc" to add to the list.

And a Superman that ended BvS thinking that this world is his world is EXACTLY the same Superman we had in MoS "I grew up in Kansas General. I'm about as American as it gets. I'm here to help"

 

[FunkMiller]

I have to disagree that this Superman was not the same at the end. He's dead.

Well, sort of, but I actually think he's gone backward. He at least tried to tell the authorities in MoS who he was, where he came from, how he was raised and what he stood for.
It's all been pretty much downhill from there.
He ended his life in a more befuddled, isolated and incompetent way than ever. At least he closed the loop by making sure he died as just as pointlesslyy as Ghost Dad.
One more book-ended "arc" to add to the list.

An anti-arc?

 

[SomeOldGuy]

It's definetly possible but the question is: will they do it?

From an audience point of view, it seems to me like it would just buy them the worst of both worlds. They've already upset people who prefer more traditional versions of the characters, now they pull a temporal stunt and alienate the fans who actually like the new takes? Sounds like a bad idea.

That said, I could see it if the Snyderverse continues to underwhelm financially. It gives them an escape hatch. But it's hard to believe it's some sort of long-term plan.

 

[Consona]

A character arc is when you have a believable and logical progression from one state of mind to another, through events and experiences that change the character in an organic manner, over time.

Simply saying 'this is my world' to the only person other than your mother that you seem to care about, and then stabbing a cave troll with a glowing green spear is not a character arc.

You've said "The Superman at the end of the BvS is the same Superman at the beginning of MoS." I've said it's not true. Now you've brought some character arc red herring nobody was talking about. Superman at the end of BvS is not the same as the Superman at the beginning of MoS, that's it.

SPOILERS

And what's the matter if he's saying it only to one person? The important thing is his mind-set, not the number of people he speaks with about that. Even if it was monologue, nothing changes, the important message is here and more importantly reinforced by the action, i.e. self-sacrifice.

 

[FunkMiller]

You've said "The Superman at the end of the BvS is the same Superman at the beginning of MoS." I've said it's not true. Now you've brought some character arc red herring nobody was talking about. Superman at the end of BvS is not the same as the Superman at the beginning of MoS, that's it.
.

Care to provide any examples of how he is different? Any parts of BvS where we see a character progression away from the man he was at the start of MoS? Any moments of character progression at all?

Or indeed, as AndrewOz said, can you bring up any moments in the film where Superman 's character doesn't actually regress backwards from his starting point?

 

[TO Design Studi]

Hey! We are a company from Ukraine, which manufactures handmade goods from vinyl record, wood and other. There are a lot of comics heroes which are popular in many countries all over the world. Batman vs Superman movie was impressed and inspired us to write a poem. It will be cool to hear your mind about it. What do you think about it? It is very interesting to find out what knowledgeable person thinks about our works.


Batman is a famous guy
He is hero and he try
Always be polite and sweet
Friendly smile, when someone meet

But he hasn’t easy childhood
Parents dead, so he was fearful
It was very terrifide

Little boy so many cried

But he was smart and really strong
Didn’t mind he was alone
He becomes human protector
And he moves in right direction


Superman is hero too
And, if honestly say the true
He is fair, cool and strong
He can to fight for very long

Batman vs Superman – it’s amazing
They are friends
They not enemy, I’m sure
Their friendship is not pure

Batman has a girl, you know
Nice Catwoman is his love
They are really pretty match
And they both are fast, uncatch


I have brilliant idea
In my mind I see it clear:
Their babies play with toys
Little Catgirls and Batboys.

Can be hero each of us
Just be person whom can trust
Be polite, attentive, true
Always smile and always move.

 

[Consona]

Care to provide any examples of how he is different?

SPOILERS

I should, but now when I know, you don't think advisedly sacrificing his life after change of heart from doubtful to committed is not a difference, I won't.

 

[shauner111]

Well, the broken English in that poem might may it cute. Other than that..

 

[Supernova]

Its such a shame that Christian Bale didnt want to comeback for this. I mean ben was awesome but having bale back would have brought alot of that audience with him who knew him as batman. I blame Bale though cause he had the chance per reports despite what snyder says but passed.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ Bale wouldn't have made this a better film..Though I like Bale's Bruce Wayne.

Keaton's Batman with Bale's Bruce Wayne and Batfleck's muscles would be perfect

Dubbed with Conroy's voice

Only with the non-killing, of course.

 

[Lily Adler]

I remember how many of us were coming up with different scenarios to get Bale's Batman back. The excitement to see Bruce and Selina part ways as he returns to the states after seeing Zod's warning around the world. How Robin Blake dies a horrible death at the hands of The Joker because he's not the real Robin and Bruce adopts one of the orphan boys who stayed at his mansion who is later revealed to be Dick Grayson. Yeah...